oh man arby can regen toughness faster than toxgas now 
pisstoughness isnt the worst thing anymore
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Buff FS actually addressing balance problems.
Nerf FS doing anything other than addressing balance problems.
(That’s a reply to dannylew8299 because it started as adding comments about Onslaught, morphed into a rant, and finally reached it’s current, more succinct form after a little meditation on what the real problem is.)
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I’m not conceptual enough to talk about what nodes should be relocated where, though I like the idea of stuff like grenade regen being made a mandatory pick.
But Vet, well, here’s what I had to say before :
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Being in 2 coherency at all times is not powerful at all
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or:
do we need gold toughness in the first place?
why do we have abilities that give more than 100% toughness?
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not that the game was difficult on ogryn by any means, but it felt easier as arbites.
now to the light strike spam:
my issue with it is that pressing one key is the easiest action a player can perform.
if it’s too effective, there’s little incentive to learn anything more complex.
so if L1 does half the damage in half the time as H1, it’s the same DPS, but it’s just easier to do because you don’t have to time your strikes and keep your distance.
so bleed should be halved on lights, and either stagger from lights reduced, or the time between strikes increased a bit to make it necessary to weave in pushes and heavies instead of autoclicking, which gives the 3b its bad name.
tbh i like the 3b and try to use it more elaborately, but i often feel that just mashing buttons would be as good.
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Because temp HP needed a replacement, ig?
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You gonna mention the buffs?
Yet another reminder that Plasma needs to be removed and replaced with something else at this point. The clown takes are insufferable!
For example here’s a guy who thinks that killing 1 and 3/4 of a crusher for 15% of your ammo before you risk explosion and death somehow involves a high reward in any shape or form, not even accounting for the charging time while holding a weapon with -30% dodge range.
Not even touching upon the inefficiency and counterintuitiveness of the charged shot when it comes to headshots…in a game that incentives people to headshot. Is the overkilling and wasting the cleave part of the high reward as well?
Then we have the backward notion that nerfing the main attack until the secondary overtakes it is a way to go, because in some genious twist the weapon isn’t actually balanced until the main attack isn’t the main attack. So monumentally backward its nearly ungraspable!
Lets just remove the Plasma and lets see what sort of clown show you guys gonna come up with trying to “balance” the Onslaught recon lasgun…
At the very least, when I use DB Shotgun + Weapon Specialist, I do use VoC, but I’ve never used Duty and Honour because Gold Toughness is clearly too overpowered. That one point can be spent on other nodes that increase firepower. Also, I haven’t used Gold Toughness in over a year, but even with VoC alone, my survivability clearly improves.
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Found the Plasma Vet! 
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My only suggestion is that the heavies need a little toning down, too. Right now, with a generic build you can just annihilate heavy armor, and everything else. I don’t want them to be BAD, but they don’t need to be able to kill Crushers in 1 second.
By tuning this down you can give more value to the special attacks, which trigger a DoT. Right now there’s barely a reason for the DoT since you can kill things so fast.
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I think it should absolutely block normal melee hits, after all having 100% toughness makes you take 0 HP from a melee hit
However what shouldn’t be blocked are overheads, snipers and bursters
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I kind of think if the cooldowns were not able to be cut so short, that gold toughness would be okay. As long as no new classes get access to it, it will give a unique and cool value to Zealot and Veteran. Having their support abilities support in a strong way is good for me, so long as it’s not ever 5-7 seconds.
I don’t think it’s inherently bad to be able to protect your teammates from damage with a well-timed shout if they’re about to eat a heavy attack.
At least - in the current-ish state of power, it no longer feels out of line.
Speaking of buffs; Vigilant Autoguns. Either a lot more ammo or a lot more damage and penetration. Also, on the burst weapons reduce the recoil until after the burst, so that the first burst will be better at landing hits on mid-long range targets, where these weapons are meant to shine.
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I think its ok for some weapons to be for head-empty idleclicker people. As long as there are also more complex options that aren’t objectively worse. See Mkx vs Mkii relic blades. But the bleed call out is wise. LMB spam should not be the one stop solution up to and including bosses. You should need to at least spam heavy attacks for those instead.
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Which on this board seems to be a bigger problem than finding a full thread of people who seemingly never fired a single charged shot from Plasma, but want Plasma to be about said charged shot.
But worst of it all, you people genuinely cant see what’s wrong with nerfing main attacks to better faciliate the secondary ones, even thou you’ve already seen one of the extreme ends of that with the DS4 and learned nothing.
So now we have clueless simpletons thinking that killing one bulwark and using 10% of ammo for it while being one click away from killing yourself is the proper way to go about balancing Plasma, because…why? Why is that a good idea to balance the weapon that way?
Since when isn’t punitive balancing a pure stupidity?
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Executioner’s Stance still has too many tax nodes.
Veteran and Zealot need a hard look at the nodes that no one uses or care about.
Zealot and Psyker need their tree reorganized to allow picking blitzes without any prior investments like the other three classes.
Veteran’s base stats are garbage. Give it slightly more health and toughness. Make its stamina and regen not trash by default.
Plasmeme needs a slight nerf to uncharged shots damage and cleave. Charged shots need a big buff, and perhaps made more expensive on heat to promote a risk for reward playstyle.
Dueling Sword should have the same speed and dodge profile as Devil’s Claw. Its light attacks should never benefit from rending, brittleness, whatever on armor. Essentially force the thing to use heavies only to deal with anything wearing flak or harder.
Knife and Tac Axe can stay fast, but tone them down enough that giga kiting is no longer a thing.
Arbites Shock Maul shouldn’t be nuking crushers with its already crazy horde clear. Tone down its heavy damage.
Shock mine needs a shorter duration.
Just me personally, but I’d like less tax nodes for the Arbitrator’s dash - this buff is so low priority on the list it isn’t worth debating or considering until the aforementioned buffs for vet, zealot and psyker go through.
Ogryn’s rumbler needs nerfs.
Ogryn’s basher needs nerfs.
Confident Strike either needs to be reworked or booted off ogryn weapons. Not sure if anyone else ever uses it much.
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I think not nearly as much stuff should be changed as others seem to. I think the game is very close to a very well-tuned state.
Nerfs:
Veteran
- Voice of Command. Increase its cooldown by 15s basekit, make golden toughness node an extra +15s, just like the revive node.
- Golden toughness shouldn’t last 15 seconds.
- The CDR node needs to be tuned down, relocated, and not feel mandatory.
Zealot
- The toughness damage reduction needs to be relocated into different nodes. Why does one single node give you practically permanent 50% TDR uptime?
- The CDR needs to be tuned down HEAVILY. FotF preferably gets a CDR subnode.
Ogryn
- Rumbler, duh
- Bully Club, duh
Psyker
- Fire staff
- Smite
Arbitrator
- Execution Order needs to be less loaded. It has too much and the other keystones have too little, by comparison. Especially Terminus Warrant.
- Arby Shock Maul should have one less dodge, slightly slower attack speed
What I think is fine
I think Castigator’s is fine. I don’t understand the hype around this ability, even with the CDR. Its subnodes are trash, also.
Exterminator Shotgun is heavily overrated, overhyped and not nearly as versatile as I’ve seen Reginald and others chalk it up to be. Incredibly mediocre, in my view.
Lone Wolf is fine. Blitz regen is the only real appealing quality. The stat changes are powerful of course, but not interesting nor game-changing enough to warrant leaving the dog. Blitz regen is the only reason people use the other grenades, really. No one uses them in a dog build because searching for grenades sucks. It’s why everyone regens nades for every class EXCEPT Ogryn, because he assumes the other classes will be regenerating grenades and leave the pick-ups for him, and blitzes are less important for him in general.
What needs to be buffed
Exestance. Marksman Focus. Kraks.
Point Blank Barrage.
Terminus Warrant.
What needs to be reworked
Both stealth talents. Smokes. All of Zealot’s keystones. The 3 original human classes’ talent trees need the updated designs.
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Ranged weapons really need to have a cleave damage falloff like melee weapons. There aren’t many ranged weapons with high cleave, but the ones that do are problematic. Likely will never happen though since adding it probably means retooling base game systems.
Purg/Flamer should apply lesser and lesser stacks as it passes through enemy hit mass.
Explosions deal less damage as the effect radiates through hit mass.
Plasma/Voidstrike sure you can have 100 cleave, but by the time you hit cleave through those poxwalkers your attack will tickle, so better charge the weapon for that extra damage.
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this is how you nerf the plasma gun while keeping it unique. it should keep its mega-cleave, but diminish heavily the cleave of other ranged weapons… including sob the revolver.
Nerf everything then buff everything
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