What Could Make Riposte Good?

Warhammer: Vermintide 2 Gameplay Feedback
102

After parrying.

For the first point, flinching would effect more than one target, and generally you’ll only kill one enemy with the crit. The reply above yours contains pertinent info to your second point.

This is why it’s not redundant. Without the flinch it’s only relevant on ambients and bosses at any level of density that matters. With the 2 second timer you have to use it very quickly in the narrow window of opportunity, usually with a push attack, to kill an elite with it before they move back into the horde. My suggestion focuses on making using it instantly reliable instead of giving the player more leeway with timing.

I suggested the 3 second timer because it allows for better use of heavy attacks (useful for Greatsword and Flail) after dodging away swiftly, though the increase of the timer from 2 seconds to 3 may be too much for Saltz’ faster weapons.

I’m sorry, but I’m getting the impression you want Riposte to be easier to use instead of more capable under high pressure. I don’t think that’s what Riposte needs.

Sounds reasonable to me. Do note that it’s not about creating a safety net if you miss, but letting you use a push to interrupt other elites that would have otherwise hit you while you land a strike on one of them. You could of course block all of them, but without a change to make them flinch the recoil animation causes them to step back into a horde (this is very noticeable with Halberd Stormvermin) outside of reach/with their head blocked by another enemy.

103

dunno how you came to that conclusion
I don’t play the game anymore, I don’t enjoy it as much as I once did but I’m still passionate about the games future.

If making Riposte slightly easier e.g bumping the parry window from 0.5 to 0.6 - 0.75 seconds means a more enjoyable experience then sure.

Riposte is a very solo orientated talent, it doesn’t play nice with FK, Crunch Slayer, Conflag Sienna or any form of stagger.

Sleezy said it better than I ever will.
It wouldn’t want it changed to on push either, it would be absurd with Rapier and Billhook.

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104

Right… if you’re going to have a parry stun, why even bother playing with a tank?

Who cares about shields if your WHC can parry stun elites ( multiple at that ) out of their attacks.

Without a rework to make WHC a parry oriented push tank, adding a direct stun to riposte is valuable to true solo players only really

105

It’s actually the opposite, quite difficult to pull off parries when you have teammates staggering enemies out of attacks.

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106

Maybe balance-wise, this would make it at least somewhat tempting to take over flense/DK. However, the game really doesn’t need to add any more abilities to 1 shot CW at this point. It’s already getting a little silly.

Then you’re back to the same problem of having to rework the talent. Also, DK is plenty strong. Flense just needs numbers tuning so that DK is actually better if you land headshots.

This. I think that’s actually a really good idea. It makes so much more thematic sense too. Dodge range / stam regen / parry talent. Those kind of go together. I wouldn’t even care if they just put always prepared down with the other dps talents. It makes sense there too. And tbh, as scared as QP WHC’s are to melee, I think a lot of people should be taking always prepared lol.

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107

I’m biased here because getting rid of Always Prepared would mean they could buff volleybow again without so many complaints of WHC abusing it :smiley:

More seriously though as @Sleezy pointed out, Riposte does make sense on that row. Is not being able to take it with Cast Away or Charmed Life somewhat of a nerf for a Riposte build though? Or would being able to run it with DK (juicy CW ripostes) or Flense more than balance that out? Cast Away does seem like a good way to keep your stamina up between parries, so would that in turn give a Parry build even more reliance on maxing BCR?

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108

The issue I see with Riposte is that it’s ineffective in the hands of a skilled player even as host. Even if it was more consistent/easier to proc, it doesn’t really do anything but let it be slow dps compared to now, where it at least encourages high dps uptime that lead to last moment blocks.

What Sleezy said is very similar to ‘game is too easy’ which is what it is if you’re rarely having to block attacks. At that point, the only thing that kills players is difficulty spikes which is what the suggested Riposte changes would help with. It’s really missing what I’ve already typed several times. It’s fine to disagree with my points, but I haven’t really seen any counter arguments to them.

Eh, no worse than random DK crits with the Rapier. It would be slower and more risky than all of these other ways.

It’s the simplest and cleanest solution for Riposte itself. However, Riposte is pretty dangerous on non-Rapier weapons without Cast Away or Charmed Life. This has similar issues that Virtue of Discipline has being on GK’s defense row (not as bad though since WHC’s base defense is okay). I’m fine with this as a solution because it means Riposte doesn’t have extreme competition and could be kept as a very straightforward talent. As @alsozara pointed out, Riposte + DK makes it very potent against CWs (monsters too, might almost have a proper monster killing Witch Hunter) and Flense would of course make it pretty flexible. I’d say I’m mostly convinced, and just need to see a good replacement on row 2.

I say this as someone that would prefer to run Riposte with Charmed Life, but if placing it where Always Prepared is would make it a competitive enough option for most players, than that’s fine by me.

I’m not sure about Always Prepared on row 2. Could be some kind of buffed version that lets WHC play like the WHC in the trailers for the game (that is using BoP very frequently) but that might step on BH’s role.

Are quickplay WHCs scared to melee? This is the first I’ve heard of this.

I’m honestly not sure. It could end up being very dangerous outside of the Rapier. Perhaps something simple could be done to Templar’s Knowledge to give some breathing room in this regard. Here’s a rough example:

  • Templar’s Knowledge
    Victor can now block the attacks of tagged enemies just before they hit at no stamina cost.

Would have decent synergy with I Shall Judge You All.

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109

Wow
Capture3

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110

“slow dps compared to now, where it at least encourages high dps” What?
Split second/last moment parries would still be a thing, it just lowers the skill floor ever so slightly and opens up Riposte to more players.
Players with greater mechanical skill will still get more out of a parry based talent/trait.

Probably beneficial to non rapier weapons too; rapier has an easier and safer time resetting parry/riposte with fast, 1 stamina push attacks and the water pistol.

Here’s the thing, Riposte’s actual reward is good.
A guaranteed crit on a career that relies so heavily on critical headshots is good.
It doesn’t really need any flinch mechanics, there are ways around elites stepping back.

It’s not even about the game being “too easy” either, even in difficulty spikes an ally can interrupt a potential parry. Parry interruption is the inherent problem of Riposte, it slowly becomes unfun or potentially frustrating to use. I’m sure you’ve all had a potential parry interrupted by an ally bonking your attacker. :eyes:

A lot of block based talents/traits feel slow, it’s probably why they changed Astrai Alacrity.
-admittedly that talent is kinda overtuned or “easymode”-

On the other hand, Riposte has its moments, it can be extremely satisfying and fun to use.

111

It wouldn’t be as good as pressing F on GK, shade, BH, waystalker, etc., but CW’s are already laughable. I don’t think adding in more careers that just 1 shot them is good for the game. Not saying it’s even unbalanced. I’m just saying that as rare as CW are, they need to chill on the one-tapping.

Also, though, it would be able to delete a whole c-pat pretty quickly which the others can’t do without pots. It’d actually make WHC the best CW dps in game for mass CW.

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112

Probably because you’re usually the WHC. And it’s really any class that has a ranged wep. In QP they always stop to shoot elites. There isn’t enough special pressure in base Cata to make wasting ammo dangerous.

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113

You’ve figured my secret plan out.

Fair points. That’s a shame. WHC is a joy to play in melee vs mixed threats.

Edit: To be fair though, that’s often not the case in modded either.

114

Depends on comp and which mod you’re running :stuck_out_tongue:

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115

I decided to take time to collect my thoughts and considering other view points further before continuing this discussion, and it would seem I forgot to continue it. Sorry.

After some more thought, I’ve realised that extending the Parry window would not be as bad as I assumed. However, I am worried that this would make players with Parry invincible to extreme guard-breaking scenarios on nearly any career, turning anyone into a Handmaiden. Would depend on the amount it would be increased by I suppose.

Its uptime is very poor. Ally stagger poses a large issue for Riposte, but even in true solo Riposte has poor uptime. The reward has to be stronger to justify it.

Such as? Dangerously face hugging them and pushing your way through the horde to reach them? Imagine trying to use Riposte on the arena event in Righteous Stand while circle kiting as a group. With or without ally stagger the Riposte is almost always going to have to be used on an elite that was luckily doing a running attack and didn’t get blocked by anyone. With the added flinch, or stagger in the other suggestion below, the Riposte can be used immediately after a parry on the intended target that was parried and would make it far safer to use Riposte against shielded SV with other elites nearby.

  • Riposte
    Blocking just as an enemy attack is about to hit causes your next melee attack within 3 seconds to be a guaranteed critical hit and your first push within 3 seconds to flinch enemies.

The changes from the original idea are it now causes only the first push made within 3 seconds after parrying to flinch enemies regardless of the push’s actual stagger strength, the parry affect has been removed and it no longer affects the stagger of the attack itself.

It overlaps with stagger strength increasing elements like Opportunist (however, this flinch would work on elites not in an attack animation, which Opportunist doesn’t) and power vs, but as WHC is a low stagger strength career stagger breakpoint wise, with no unique sources of power/stagger power for staggering, flinching picks up a lot of value. At worse, any overlap could be removed by making this a stagger power increase rather than a flinch. Something as small as 20% would work, and would look like:

  • Riposte
    Blocking just as an enemy attack is about to hit causes your next melee attack within 3 seconds to be a guaranteed critical hit and your first push within 3 seconds to be 20.0% stronger.

A low stagger strength weapon like the Rapier would stagger an elite with the first push, but would not be able to stagger with the subsequent pushes even with the lower stagger resistance enemies have while staggered, but a higher base stagger strength weapon like the Greatsword will be able to, meaning while the Rapier can still create openings, the Greatsword would be able to further capitalise on them, a natural balance for its higher risk with Riposte.

I don’t like Riposte relying on stagger. I think there’s an inherent lack of elegance on it relying on push attacks in the first place, but the current version of Riposte is simply impractical under pressure unless Saltz gets something like a Rapier with longer reach.

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116

Targeting a different elite with your Riposte crit.
Pushing trash enemies out of the way. -If your target is surrounded purely by trash enemies-
Rapier and Billhook have some exceptional reach + Rapier pistol.
Dodge back and use your ranged, it also receives a guaranteed crit and can proc Killing Shot.

I dunno man, this issue just seems blown out of proportion.
Just increasing the crit window to your suggested 3 seconds would offer more wiggle room and cause less single target tunnel vision.

My Riposte uptime is pretty decent in true solo and just “okay” in duos/bot games but god awful in full groups or with particular set ups such as Flaming Flail UC.
Addressing the uptime makes more sense, then see if flinch mechanics are needed.

117

Unless they line up perfectly, this is slower than just dodging + crit fishing with lights, before the other talents get involved. May as well not have a row 2 talent if you bring Riposte in its current state.

And only if it’s trash enemies. Otherwise they won’t be going very far out of the way. Shielded enemies like SV causes problems here, as does any elite just walking up to the player and pushing them.

The Rapier example is fair, but the Billhook is going to struggle to land a riposte while under any amount of relevant pressure because its non-momentum based mobility is poor (its mobility with move techs is good, but it gains no burst of movement from pushing unlike other weapons and its first attack has no movement speed boost, making both parry > push attack and parry > L1 poor when under pressure).

It really shouldn’t even give ranged crits in the first place. It’s labelled Riposte, says melee attack in the description, requires a melee action (parrying), and is on a primarily melee oriented career. WHC can already 1 shot most targets with a Xbow headshot, so you could instead dodge instead of parrying and then Xbow headshot. The Rapier’s pistol can be used for this, but that’s limited to the Rapier.

The only thing I’m thinking of right now is someone getting in melee range, parrying, then while there are other dangerous enemies around them, pulling out a ranged weapon and then firing at an elite that has been enveloped by the horde. Risky in what would seem like an unreliable way to me.

Please explain how I blew this out of proportion in the previous reply (I think most would agree that Riposte is bad so I’m confused by your statement here), and provide evidence of decent Riposte dps uptime. I can provide plenty of evidence of poor Riposte dps uptime in both true solo and team contexts if need be.

This is interesting. If what you say is true, you’d have to be getting at least 20 or more useful Ripostes in true solo (80 or more total elite kills is about right for a short map on Cata in true solo, like Screaming Bell). I can’t fathom how that would be anything but incredibly dangerous, but I’d love to see it because it would be beautiful gameplay.
Are we talking true solo Cata or Legend? The density difference has a large impact on Riposte’s effectiveness.

118

We’re all agreeing Riposte is bad, adding flinch mechanics wont tackle the underlying issue.
Adding flinch or more reward wont help if players can’t proc the talent.

119

Gives a 1/2 seconds damage buff after blocking successfully ?

Procing the talent becomes easy and useful at the same time.

120

kinda boring solution innit?

it’d still be worse than Flense in that case too

3 Likes
121

Alternatively:

  • Riposte
    Blocking just as an enemy attack is about to hit causes your next melee attack within 3 seconds to be a guaranteed critical hit and increases attack speed by 15% for 6 seconds.

This gives it a longer lasting boost that also helps with delivering ripostes. It’s more elegant since it doesn’t rely on stagger, but its practical effectiveness would have to be judged in a game.

2 Likes