Yeah this is my thoughts, but frankly flense just needs a nerf and I wouldn’t really want to design stuff to be competitive with it, it’s a pretty badly made talent imo.
Base cata is easy enough that I think builds just being distinct and fun is more important than trying to make them competitive with the best options on already very strong careers. Like imagine if instead of changing busted BW they buffed volcanic so it would be on a similar level?
I’d just limit it to 1 proc per block input (including pushing to reset as a new block input), rather than per attack that gets parried. Wouldn’t really need to be specified in the description since it’s pretty intuitive. I don’t think that’s problematic but I suppose I’d have to see what someone of your calibre could actually do with it to really know.
I don’t think class reworks or talent reworks are realistic at all at this point anyways. I just thought of this post as a thought experiment.
With the amount of fixes FS is focused on, darktide, new classes, chaos wastes, deeds, and versus mode… I think the likelihood of a rework of ANY talent is unlikely. ESPECIALLY a reworks that brings back old code/systems
I’d be inclined to agree, but am still pinning some hope on the promised second BBB. I’m not expecting full thp/stagger talent reworks or anything of that magnitude (unfortunately). I do think some talent tweaks aren’t too improbable at the least.
At least until a Dev comes out and outright says BBB 2 isn’t happening (up till this point they’ve just described it as postponed), I’ll consider this hope reasonable enough to hold onto.
Also though you’re right it also serves as a thought experiment, I just tend to temper that within the bounds of what I actually see FS do (AKA band-aid fixes).
I’m just of the mind that if you’re going to change a talent like riposte to make a parry whc build viable, you should change his other talents that are outmodded that literally no one uses legend + ( unless you’re memeing)
Being able to make whc a viable off tank would cool.
Merc/IB/Shade/Footknight/ are good examples of classes that can utilize different weapon properties/weapons/almost all of their talents to create different different playstyles.
If you’re going to make a riposte playstyle viable, I think the best option is to make a rework that uses the mechanics we already have in place.
Give whc a reason to put parry/opportunist on their weapon and go around time blocking everything in order to get kills and offer utility to their team
I’d just start with an increased parry window for both Riposte and Parry then go from there.
A bigger window might make Riposte and Parry more appealing to a wider range of players.
More Riposte procs will probably make the talent more fun to use, arguably just as important as making it a competitive choice.
This question isn’t meant to make fun of anyone or put anyone down, but is the parry window really not wide enough? I’ve had many times where I was surprised that what I thought was an early block ended up counting as a parry. What’s everyone else’s experiences with parrying?
Edit: I can say that what I have trouble with when using Riposte is getting enemy attacks to hit my block because of team stagger, enemies standing there doing nothing/missing me. The other big issue I’ve had was landing the Riposte under any level of pressure within 2 seconds. Even at max attack speed with the Rapier it doesn’t seem reasonable to me except against ambients.
Not quite sure.
Just a bigger window, even the slightest increase might see more use from console players, high ping players or just players that currently struggle with the timings.
Yeah I pointed that out before, it’s not really a Riposte issue.
Aye, I agree with you.
A more forgiving parry window and Riposte reward would be a good start.
They could change Riposte into some other crit reward but then it might stray away from the current theme.
Hm, couldnt the parry window not simply be extended by the ping value itself? Or would this lead to every block being a parry for high ping players? Would lead to a strange situation were a trait is ping dependent in a reverse manner O.o
Also, is this even technically possible? Should be just an additional variable to check although a dynamic one.
Follow-up on that is how likely would people just exploit higher ping in effort to gain easier parry procs. I know that coding for something like that is potentially possible but tying anything to ping is probably more problematic than worth.(Spiky ping makes the talent extremely unpredictable)
You’ll have to take it up with Incan. 
This is less so about Parry itself but more so about high ping player behavior.
I parry far less on high ping and instead preemptively hold block, playing far more cautiously.
Watching people play on Incans host really highlights that, a slightly longer parry window might feel better on high ping.
Call me bad but I end up hit trading a lot when trying to parry on high ping.
Perhaps a small increase in the parry window for clients? That way it’s not affected by ping spikes/fluctuations and doesn’t make it too forgiving as host, but still allows for breathing room at moderate ping values.
ehh why jump through hoops?
Different values depending on host or clients would just lead to inconsistency and probably affect muscle memory.
I suggest a slightly bigger window, lowering the skill floor slightly to make Parry and Riposte appealing to more players.
High ping is just one example of where players play more cautiously, more preemptive blocking rather than risking a parry or hit trading.
There’s probably a lot of couch controller players too and players in a more casual environment.
I believe the parry timer is 0.5 seconds right?
the problem would be desync
Anyway you’d have to make blocking client-sided to get the desired effect and that’d scale with ping anyway. Again though the issue would be a degree of desync at higher ranges
Things don’t adjust based on ping values, they’re simply coded to be either server(host)-side or client-side.
If that’s the case, it should be no harder than dodging then.
it goes:
block input->animation->blocking/parry window
whereas dodge is more like:
input->dodge window
client-side lag will slot in there somewhere between the input and the end result
I would agree. Ripostes biggest problem is the niche way it is activated. It’s so rare in team play that you actually have to block an attack. Not saying it never happens, but if it happens 3x per horde, even, then you’re just losing a ton of value by running riposte over DK or Flense. In order to compensate for how rarely it’s up, the buff would have to be a little nutty, tbh. It’s really just a poor design for any talent. I don’t like it on GK either. It’s just clunky and really only has consistent use cases in true solo.
Without flinching, it’s practically impossible to use against any level of density (especially the density that you end up with in true solos) because of how blocked elites take a step back and get overtaken by the horde.
This is the biggest problem with Riposte having a dps focus. It’s not practical for it to be done so often that it does more dps than the other two. However, if it can work well in a team that’s on its backfoot, one that gets split up etc. then it can have a use on a career that already has decent dps without the other two talents on that row.
Even in solo, the majority of the time you need to block is during kiting parts where you can’t really afford to be letting your guard down outside of specific builds because the benefit from doing so is kind of a joke (big part of that is most weapons have a decent move speed while blocking, and the extra movement speed from not blocking often doesn’t do enough to make a difference. Wouldn’t it be interesting if some weapons had a lower dodge range while blocking.). However, Riposte with flinching makes it so that lowering your guard to parry ends up being safer because of the flinch, being most useful in moments were the player could otherwise die from taking too much stamina damage.
I’m of the opinion that with flinching on it, Riposte is a there when you need it kind of talent that is mechanically more interesting than the other two and fun (unless minimaxing). In QP pre-flinch removal the best part about Riposte (besides clutching when everyone died) was being able to hold a horde from one direction by yourself while also removing the most dangerous threats from it while ult was on cooldown, without having to kite a large distance as WHC does now. This is useful when others have to focus on something else or have a reason to back away from a frontline. This + Shade with DD was powerful because it was stagger that didn’t send elites back into a horde where it couldn’t be reached, something you can only really replicate on DW. I’d call this finesse based high dps uptime kiting.
No unique attack speed + no dodge distance talent increase + having access to enough power to stagger most elites with most weapons means it’s always going to be difficult to make use of it, even with a 6 second duration. Doesn’t have a great synergy with anything GK has either unfortunately, whereas Riposte at least has Killing Shot.
Here’s four alternative ideas for discussion (these would be with Riposte not being buffed):
Riposte Ping Discussion:
I don’t think every talent needs to be balanced around high ping. There being one parry focused talent on a small number of careers that don’t work well on high ping isn’t a problem in my eyes so long as there are two viable alternatives to them.
I’m honestly confused, is this suggested light/push flinch available at all times or only after parrying?
If it’s available at all times, flinch locking enemies could be a thing again.
If it’s available only after parrying, it might be niche/redundant for a couple reasons:
Sure maybe push/light flinch after parrying can create an opening or serve as a safety net if you miss the head, but wouldn’t it make more sense if the parry itself flinches enemies, to allow for a safer follow up attack?
Doesn’t really solve anything nor does it make Riposte more enjoyable to play.
Right. Its only really useful for true solo.
Riposte with parry playstyle would need to be a full rework to make it viable in a team setting with additional talent support