What Could Make Riposte Good?

You can ignore this post if you’re not interested in another discussion about Riposte. If you believe I am spamming, please report me so I can learn the error of my ways.

I’ve made this post because I don’t feel I’ve ever adequately explained why Riposte should work like this (I think this post goes into thorough detail). It is my hope that Fatshark restores and enhances a very high skill talent that made the combat system even more exciting and dramatic.


The Problems with Riposte
The main problem with Riposte is that it is not realistic to be landing ripostes when fighting hordes, especially on Cata, and enemy health is not high enough on Legend and below to justify its usage. Even with the Rapier’s speed, the lack of stagger and safety makes it difficult to find windows to land a riposte. Weapons that have enough reach often struggle to land a riposte swiftly enough to avoid being hit by nearby enemies (especially adjacent elites) if they do not stagger them. As WHC has no unique sources of power, staggering multiple elites with a push is unrealistic, with SV being the only exception to this. This designates Riposte to being mostly a talent that you can show off with against ambient elites which is hardly relevant.

In addition to this, Riposte is atrocious vs CWs as their slow, high stamina drain attacks make chaining ripostes impractical and slow. Riposte cannot compete as a direct dps talent in its current form, and I do not think it should become a direct dps talent.

Riposte Before, and What it Could be
Riposte’s main use pre-crit/headshot flinch removal was for safety through timed crowd control vs elites. It let WHC get out of bad situations. An under high pressure/clutch talent. It cannot work as a dps talent as the basic premise of timed blocks does not synergise with teamplay, unless you gut the core concept and make it something like pushing grants a crit with a cooldown of 5 seconds, which would be terrible and boring. This means it needs to be a defensive talent that enables offense in dire situations.

The best part about Riposte pre-crit/headshot flinch removal was that it encouraged timed blocks and more in-depth interaction with enemies on a micro scale. Actually engaging with groups of enemies through a mechanical interaction with not just your own weapon, but with the enemies themselves through their attack animations instead of raw, constant stagger and sustained dps.

This video shows roughly what it could be like. Forgive the shaky camera.

I used the mod Team Damage Mutator to increase stagger power by 20%, letting the Rapier stagger SV out of their light attacks (not their overheads or pushes) with a critical push. Since Riposte makes pushes count as crits until you land the crit with a strike or the 2 second timer runs out, this means you can parry an attack, push attack safely and land a kill even in very high intensity situations like fighting 20 Stormvermin, but only if you parry and at the cost of raw dps because it sits on the same row as Deathknell and Flense. This makes it work very well defensively when kiting in the hands of a skilled player. The example is not perfect, as random critical pushes will still stagger the SV, and double pushing after parrying will result in sending the SV back instead of just flinching them again which is too much stagger as a reward, but it demonstrates how it could work or at very least the concept. This would not just benefit the Rapier, as Saltz’ other weapons do not stagger all elites out of their light attacks with critical pushes, which means they would still benefit from it. Ideally the flinch stagger would not move/push back elites at all (unless of course the weapon’s stagger strength was already that strong) and would simply keep the elites in place and lightly stagger them.

This effect is very beneficial to WHC, as it allows WHC to hold off a horde solo for some time (with enough skill) due to the flinch stagger. WHC cannot replicate this strength with other talents, and otherwise has very low stagger vs stagger resistant targets outside of Animosity (an ultimate on a 1:30 cooldown). This is incredibly powerful when kiting and/or fighting massed elites, not only enabling a swfit kill but also helping make elites come in waves, as the front rank is overtaken by the second rank while it is flinched, helping prevent massed running attacks from occurring all at the same time, as seen throughout the above video.

What made Riposte weak pre-crit/headshot flinch removal was that any random crit push would flinch elites, as well as headshots, and the fact that Riposte didn’t (and still doesn’t) come with Parry, making Riposte inherently dependent on a trait to function properly defensively and offensively when under high pressure, unlike the vast majority of talents. It could only truly function on the Rapier because of its strong block. Restoring flinching on the critical bodyshot will enable use of the Greatsword on WHC that is not reliant on high dps from Flense, as parrying an attack then pushing and following up with a heavy attack (the Greatsword’s heavy attack is an armour cleaving sweep) would be an effective form of crowd control.

My suggestion is thus:

  • After parrying, any push made would flinch elites out of their normal attacks. It should not flinch them out of pushes, overheads, Chaos Warrior upswings/kicks. You would be able to flinch with pushes until the Riposte buff was used by hitting something, or the timer expired.
  • The melee attack made that uses the buff (so the first strike that hits something) would also flinch the elites it hits.
  • It should not flinch Packmasters out of their grabs, or Warpfire Throwers/Ratlings out of their ranged attacks (so these specials would only get staggered if the critical push/strike was enough to stagger them in the first place).
  • Parry should be added to make it safer for Saltz’ other weapons and not dependent on a gear trait/properties to function.
  • The timer should be extended to 3 seconds to enable more effective and consistent usage on Saltz’ slower weapons without attack speed stacking (it likely would still require some attack speed, but all of these changes would make it not inherently dependent on it).

It would look like this:

  • Riposte
    Parrying costs no stamina and causes your next melee attack within 3 seconds to be a critical hit. Pushes and melee attacks will flinch elites out of light attacks until either the critical is used or 3 seconds pass.

This is a simple description that should encompass the entire talent. Most know what a parry is, so I decided to omit the description of one as keeping it alongside the changes made the talent’s text longer than is standard for the majority of Fatshark’s talents.

Possible alternative descriptions:
  • This one is more true to the original text:
    Blocking just as an enemy attack is about to hit costs no stamina and causes your next melee attack within 3 seconds to be a guaranteed critical hit. Pushes will flinch elites out of light attacks until either the critical is used or 3 seconds pass.
  • This one is updated with Fatshark’s usual where of describing parrying as seen in the Parry trait and in Graik Knight’s talent Virtue of Discipline:
    Timed Blocks cost no stamina and causes your next melee attack within 3 seconds to be a critical hit. Pushes will flinch elites out of light attacks until either the critical is used or 3 seconds pass.

Parrying is not the hardest thing in the world, but this level of reward is proportionate to the level of risk and skill required, and because of the raw-dps not gained from using the other two talents. At 0:21 in the video I make a mistake by not keeping an eye on the mid rank of SV, and I am punished for it, so the talent would not make WHC invincible by any means.

To those that would say parrying is not a relevant concept because of ping – I disagree. It is relevant on reasonable ping and consistent provided the connection is not unusually unstable. Above 150 it may not be practical, but there are two other talents on that row. Not every talent should be designed with lag in mind, nor should lag be an argument to eliminate a unique talent that massively heightens the skill ceiling and lets a player take on many more enemies if they are skilled enough in an interactive way that involves timing and reading animations.

Plus, it’s also just cool to parry an enemy and watch several elites get flinched. It definitely wouldn’t be overpowered, but in the game’s current environment would stand out among other talents. What are everyone else’s thoughts?

Tl;dr: Riposte should let the crit pushes from the buff flinch elites out of light attacks. The time to use the crit should last for 3 seconds instead if 2, and it should have the parry trait effect.

11 Likes

I don’t think we can report people for being overly passionate unless they start dishing out death wishes.

While I see the benefit of the suggested changes and your goal, I would also say it is the inherent weakness of it. It would make Riposte a talent which can only be utilized by a handful of people or simplified … very niche. Depending on stance this can be counted as both good or bad. Personally, I think something with a broader appeal is more interesting.

I would have a simpler suggestion (however which I assume you won’t like that much):

  • Integrate Parry into Riposte (as I can see the “need” for this)
  • Remove Crit properties from the game and replace them with another property (reducing the overall Crit Chance will make a talent with a certified Crit comparatively more attractive)

I don’t see any particularly unique problem with Riposte. It’s a powerful effect that can have a big impact on gameplay if you can play around it. Is it completely outclassed by Flense & Deathknell? Yes, but it’s going to be outclassed by raw offensive buffs as long as the effect is based off of blocking.

I believe it should just be left alone. Let the people who like it continue to use it. It’s ok for a choice to only be liked by a minority of enthusiasts. Especially on a career like WHC that’s incredibly strong and has more talent variety than most.

Adding in more avenues for skill expression is always a good thing. Nevertheless I think that being able to flinch a mass of elites out of light attacks using push for 3 seconds after a successful riposte is overpowered because you’re giving a non-shield weapon, shield levels of stagger. Not only that, if we take into account that riposte sets up Killing Shot, we see that the reward for a riposte is a reliable way of setting up an instant kill. Put it another way, you’re basically combining a shield push with one guaranteed crit/Killing Shot on a riposte. It may not be an overall dps increase when compared to the wonder that is Flense, and I actually think on base Cata, Flense would still be the overall winner. But on modded difficulties, or true solos, or even when clutching base Cata, Riposte will get a lot of mileage simply because of stagger, the number of elites on you thus providing riposte opportunities, as well as the ability to set up instant kills bypassing enemy health increases.

What if Riposte staggered enemies in an area around the attacker that scales with the strength of the attack riposted? E.g. riposting overheads would work like a shield shove, while riposting running stab attacks would stagger a smaller area. That would tone down the shield-level pushing while maintaining some form of set up for Killing Shot, as well as picking the proper attack to riposte.

I think you’re underestimating the number of players that can parry, or at the very least the number that could learn quickly when presented with a flashier talent. I think if presented with this version of Riposte as an option in game, more players would end up learning how to parry. This is another step away from the team dps and cc vomit we have now.

I can’t really comment too much on this. I don’t think I have the knowledge or expertise to evaluate/imagine what the game would end up being like. While I agree that would make Riposte far better relative to other options than it is now, I can only suspect that you have many more reasons for this change than the competitiveness of Riposte (call it a hunch) and cannot agree unless I see them. I think this would go outside of the concern of this thread.

That effect is getting surrounded and killed most of the time, or being unable to reach specific enemies and forced to use the Riposte on a different enemy, often a chaff one (this happens a lot because the recoil animation elites like SV play when a player blocks their attack causes them to take a step back, which when fighting a horde can be enough to put them out of reach. especially since chaff enemies find it easier to overtake elites during this recoil animation. As flinching keep them in place by overriding this animation, this issue is avoided).

Proactively making use of Riposte is less dps in most cases than just dodging and chaining light attacks, especially on the Rapier (a weapon it should pair well with), which is before the other talents are even considered. Outside of that, it’s only really effective against ambient elites and sometimes some bosses, in addition to being very reliant on attack speed on a career with a single 10% attack speed talent. I’ve done a lot of testing and played around with it a lot (did Fortunes of War multiple times with it and several true solos as well both before crit/headshot flinch removal and after, and I can’t say that it’s something that really can be played around with anymore). It’s less powerful than a standard row 2 15% power talent because of the net dps loss from having to wait for an enemy’s attack instead of dodging, and the 15% power talents are not overpowered by any stretch.

You have to get lucky with enemy attacks lining up perfectly so you can chain multiple ripostes. My changes would alter it from being a talent that occasionally triggers when a player ends up having to block an attack, to something they purposefully position for to provide some cc and damage both.

I disagree mostly. While Deathknell and Flense would both still be more powerful as far as raw dps goes than my suggested version of Riposte, I believe that it would uniquely compete as a mixed burst damage, cc, clutch and backfoot talent.

I liked it before the flinch removal. The effect viewed with Killing Shot is arguably powerful, but it does not justify its risk outside of ambient elites. Deathknell is the level where most talents should be at (the net dps increase with DK is not that high because most of Saltz weapons can only hit 2 headshots in cleave at most, with the Greatsword and Flail not having very high headshot modifiers for it). Flense is blatantly overpowered for sure though.

I don’t think WHC being strong justifies having a row 2 talent that is weaker than the vast majority of row 2 talents in the game.

It’s Fatshark’s choice at the end of the day. I respect that some may like it as is and would not want that gameplay taken away from them, but I could say the same about it being affected by the flinch removal.

Flinching is significantly less than shield stagger. I may have not communicated that clearly in the original post. Sorry. The level of stagger seen in the video is also higher than what would be ideal. Flinching would keep the elites in place and simply interrupt them instead of knocking them back, and would not flinch elites out of overheads/pushes/CW kicks/CW upswings. This way, it can’t be used to get out of being surrounded and still means a WHC has to have good positioning skills, and can’t be used to hold ground against the same way a shield user can. It also means the WHC has to watch out for overheads carefully while performing a riposte.

I could be wrong, but Fatshark does not take modded content and true solos into account when balancing, so any effects there are in my opinion not relevant. If this were not the case, then FK’s talent Staggering Force being ineffective on Deathwish would be a valid reason to buff it, as would Comrades in Arms being overpowered in duos be a valid reason to nerf it on official.

Beyond that, if Riposte did end up being meta or comparable to Flense in modded, I think it would be a very nice shakeup of the meta.

Interesting idea. I think it working against overheads could make WHC too effective at holding ground, but different levels of stagger based on the type of attack parried would further heighten the skill ceiling of the talent.

4 Likes

I believe that it does. There are other careers with far more restrictive builds than the WHC and loads of talents that are essentially filler. I would much prefer if Fatshark would focus on making those careers better off over elevating one of the best careers in the game another step.

Especially since I believe you’re really overstating the weakness of Riposte. I don’t doubt your TS experience, but in normal game scenarios it works fine.

“Edit”

Right, adding parry to riposte would be a good or even required first step, and the idea for an empowered push is interesting.

With such effects added in then WHC can comfortably deflect CW overheads and dish a powerful heavy back, or push to gain some breathing room from a horde running down on him instead if that´s needed. More versatile and a better contender for the other choices than what it is now.

The push may not be too empowered though, and perhaps limited in targets affected but that is more in depth, it might also be a good idea to remove the stamina cost for the empowered push.Perhaps that weapon trait that makes enemies take more damage after getting one of their attacks blocked can be baked in as well if above isnt enough to bring it to speed.

Lag isnt actually much of a problem on PC if you are playing in EU or the states last i heard, as long as matchmaking doesnt mix people from both up that is, which happens. Hitbox bugs…exist but they kinda suck equally for everyone anyway.

As do movement bugs, but a stronger push would actually help deal with enemies piling up xd

As for console…well, my condolences.

1 Like

In an ideal world with no lag, beastmen, hit box bugs, movement bugs, or stacking enemies, your suggestion is practical.

The REALITY of this game on console and in the wild on PC makes riposte permanently c tier.

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Also… not that I’m really looking to shut anything down… Plenty of talents and classes could definitely be reworked…

But do we really want WHC to have a talent that can potentially let him tank patrols, high dodging CW, and having solo potential on Legend/Cata?

Its already an exceptionally strong career like merc.

Id rather see other careers get some love than give WHC even MORE tools lol

Not only does he have an area knockback, but also gains a second HUGE stagger?!

You know who needs riposte like this thread suggests? Bounty Hunter

Also… is this with opportunist or without? Because I am pretty sure I can stagger SV with rapier/opportunist

I disagree. I don’t think it justifies Riposte not being changed, as the way it would effect gameplay is interesting enough in my opinion to justify Riposte being a decent talent on a strong career. WHC being too strong overall is a separate balancing issue that a buffed version of Riposte would not contribute to.

On an average Cata run a WHC with Riposte can likely get no more than 10 effective Ripostes that they are able to land and kill an elite with. This is if the WHC has not already instantly killed said enemies, and if the enemies are not staggered or killed by the team. A single FK or BW can make it like not having a row 2 talent at all. My suggested changes would make it so that it would work in a different, defensive way that would not make the career overall better as Deathknell and Flense would still be the meta picks.

I used to overrate Riposte even after the removal of crit/headshot flinching, but I looked at some of my gameplay and counted the number of ripostes I was getting and landing successfully and found it lacking.

I think my suggestions would be enough (I’m biased to those of course though). I’m hesitant to add more effects since it’s at 3 which is already not standard for Fatshark’s talents (most have 1 or 2 effects).

I don’t see why both can’t happen. The stagger would be less than what is seen in the video. It would keep elites and place and simply interrupt them out of their light attacks (so not overheads, pushes, CW kicks or CW upswings). The critical pushes would only stagger until buff timer runs out or an attack is landed, meaning an instant Riposte would not give the player 3 seconds of safe pushes. This means a player has an intelligent choice to make after parrying, striking now or later, which is more complex than what it would be otherwise (constantly attack and dodge or block/go on the defensive usually).

These changes do not bring the talent up to the level of Deathknell and Flense, rather they make it a high skill ceiling and interactive talent that enables WHC to hold a line temporarily in a way that requires animation reading and parrying.

This version of the talent wouldn’t necessarily be better in a true solo context than a standard 15% power talent or Deathknell or Flense would be, nor is true solo something Fatshark needs to consider balancing for.

That is a different type of stagger from flinching. It’s a stronger type that makes them more susceptible to further stagger and increase their stagger state level, causing them to take more damage. Flinching wouldn’t have these other effects.

2 Likes

I’m really unsure if the game is even coded to detect what a “flinch” vs stagger is.

Do you know if it is?

Allowing a knockback with an interrupt that the game doesn’t register as a stagger seems really complex to code.

You are right that there are several reasons going into this “suggestion” and also that it would derail the purpose of the thread. I just wanted to showcase the influence on this specific example.

It is less the Parry aspect. It is more the effective use of the flinch mechanic to succesfully kite and erase elite groups.

I think if you let it slay man sized enemies after a successful parry, it would be competitive.

It existed before crit/headshot flinching was removed, so the code exists. You can see the effect here in this video at 1:47 (this run was done before crit/headshot flinching was removed):

And in this video you can see the headshot flinching of an SV. Notice that the elite never advances into another stagger state and is able to retaliate and start an attack at 29 seconds and at 47 seconds as well:

I wish there was a time where random crit flinching and headshot flinching didn’t exist but Riposte still existed and flinched elites. I would gladly show how it could be used to do this. I’ll have to settle for explaining, but first I need to ask what do you think would cause it too much trouble?

The critical from Riposte does activate Killing Shot’s effect on a headshot. I’m not sure I understand what you mean.

Well. If you want it viable for other weapons and in tighter situations. Allowing any hit to slay would make it competitive.

You could riposte, then push attack with anything = dead

He can already solorun cata deathwish using dang deathknell rather than flense if the user is good enough, i dont think a talent that lets him be better against elites, which would still be weaker than flense in expert hands i´d guess, will change much.

Ideally both would be done but realistically fatshark is and has been too busy for like…a year? To give a dang about talents. So this is mostly just entertainment .c

Hence i noted that it should not be made too powerful, velsix idea about the strength being able to stop elite light attacks was good while i was thinking about a limit to like 3 stormvermins worth of enemies affected.

BH needs nothing as long as he can just annihilate bosses and even some lords at the drop of a hat with a conc pot,or even just systimatically chunk them even without, so when he loses the ability to do so i´ll be open for discussing buffing him again.

“Edit”

While also being a generally powerful sniper ontop-*

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Yeah. The lord’s flimsiness is a whole different ball of wax.

While this would work balance wise, I think having it work on bodyshot goes against WHC’s theme of headshots, and against what I personally think Riposte should be (a micro-intensive talent that requires great focus on the small details of the combat in front of oneself).

I mean to think that I know how you want to use it. It is just a lot of precision work. You have to correctly kite, get the timing on parry, make the push, optionally do a dodge during or after the push and then use the hit and score a headshot. Each of these steps alone is not that difficulty but repeatedly doing such a sequence asks for a precision level I don’t think to many people have. It is completely doable, it is elegant, it is just extremely niche (which again can be considered both good and bad).
Alternatively, you could just use it as a purely defensive talent by parrying and pushing to gain distance during kiting. So there is still some broader appeal. But most talents which are perceived as mainly defense orientated have bad pick rates (which doesnt say much about the talent strength though).

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