Compared to flense and just standard crit fishing I don’t really think I agree, I think even with the changes in the OP it would still not be super competitive, though flense is kind of a dumb talent tbf.
I also think that talents allowing you to excel at something in particular is great, I think that’s exactly what they should do, and something that most of the more versatile careers have (or try to have). Talents that are just “be better” are dull, and they just lead to there being no variety because there’s always going to be one that’s bis. Which is basically what we have now, I’m sure velsix knows the numbers on flense compared to deathknell better than I do.
Giving him the ability to spec more into being a bit defensive and very timing based is a cool change, even if flense will still need a nerf.
I like the idea of giving it a bit extra utility so there’s actually a reason to use it, but I think giving it parry too is too much, and it’s kind of just strange to have the ability to run a completely useless trait imo. I wouldn’t mind it if parry was taken away from the trait list and just tied to certain weapons though, things like DD or rapier or maybe the 1h swords, stuff that reasonably should be parrying instead of blocking stuff in a fight.
If that’s not the case though, I don’t think talents should be conflicting with traits like that.
If you wanted to have it even more skill reliant you could make it so you can either crit shove or crit attack, but that might get too annoying.
Also not really clear, but what attacks do you think it should and shouldn’t be able to flinch enemies out of? Like what is the normal attack for a zerker? The combo or the weird little single swing they sometimes do?
Flense is great on console ( see necessary) if you want to kill hordes. Individual horde chaos have 66% more health and skaven 33% more compared to console.
Flense is the only whc talent that lets you clear hordes on console.
Please be specific when you ask for nerfs on specific talents because often FS just applies them to console and screws stuff up for us.
So yes. Flense might be OP on PC, but it is by far the most consistently viable option in that row for console
Good point. What if it just gave straight 20% BCR regardless of if you parry, or maybe as much as 30% but specifically on parrying. That wouldn’t be problematic as far as I can see?
That seems overkill honestly. Between his passive, 60% BCR on gear, and a single talent with BCR you’d already have all the blocking boons you’d ever realistically want. Those talents might not be particularly meta, but I’m not sure I’d want to see them go anyway. Besides, that discussion should take place in an entirely other thread ideally.
I agree. I think my suggestion achieves making Riposte into a very distinct talent on a career that is not in need of more raw universal versatility.
Basically the idea was that Parry would benefit the Rapier the least since it already has a strong block, and would make it a much more reasonable pick on Saltz’ other slower weapons, especially the Greatsword which has a push attack that would be very well suited for it, if not for the risk a slow and low mobility weapon like that has in trying to parry elite attacks.
If Parry isn’t added, most of Saltz’ weapons would still require at least 60% BCR to make effective use of the talent itself, while the majority of talents do not require gear properties/traits to be effective. I’d contrast this with other block related talents, such as Counter-punch, Rune-Etched Shield, Asrai Alacrity and Dissipate. All of these ones either exist on careers that:
Already have better blocking capabilities (Foot Knight and Ironbreaker have extra stamina shield perks, Handmaiden has an unlisted half stamina shield perk)
Have a higher number of weapons that are good at blocking (Foot Knight and Ironbreaker both have multiple shields and weapons with high base stamina, Handmaiden has 1 shield and Dual Swords which have a very good outer-angle block cost modifier)
Have massive stamina regeneration passively (Handmaiden)
Or it comes with the talent (Unchained’s Dissipate gives BCR that scales with your heat level in addition to its other effect).
The only partial-exception is Grail Knight’s Virtue of Discipline, but Grail Knight still has access to all of Kruber’s shields and most of Kruber’s high stamina weapons. While other careers do not require traits and properties to make effective use of block talents, WHC does on every weapon except the Rapier. These others talents may not be as potentially powerful as Riposte, but they do not require parrying (and some are on rows that usually have talents that are less powerful than the ones found on row 2) or properties/gear traits to be functional with most of the weapons on their respective careers. Of course WHC can use Eternal Guard, but that is mainly useful for chaff mobs and not elites.
While this would heighten the complexity and skill ceiling of the talent, it would unfortunately make it very awkward on most weapons and impractical on the 1h Axe (needs to use pushes constantly for cc), the Greatsword (lights and heavies often require pushes to be safe, and the push attack requires a push and is its most reliable attack for picking a specific target which you would want to do with Riposte) and would make the current Riposte tech of pushing just as the attack hits your block for an almost immediate push attack not possible.
I completely forgot about berserkers, thank you for pointing them out. It would stagger berserkers out of their stationary single light attack (the little swing), so not their leap/flurry/combo attacks. I think staggering them out of the flurry would be too much and start stepping into the role of shield weapons.
Would it be dumb to just give it 40% BCR on parries? Gives you Parry in effect if you’ve already stacked max BCR, and is enough with a single property that you still ought to be able to get good use out of it under pressure.
Wouldn’t most weapons other than rapier be running 60% BCR anyway? Does that requirement really have all that much impact. Especially if it gave BCR as per previous suggestion.
This would work as well. While I don’t think adding Parry would be too much, this would be a reasonable alternative.
I’m not sure how to word this into the description though. Any ideas?
Riposte Parrying causes your next melee attack within 3 seconds to be a critical hit. Pushes and melee attacks will flinch elites out of light attacks until either the critical is used or 3 seconds pass. Parrying now has 40% BCR.
Would this work or be too confusing?
The point was really that other talents don’t require gear properties/traits to be functional. This would be like if Pyro’s Spirit Casting only worked if you had 20% health on Necklace. In my opinion, it would make Riposte come across as an incomplete talent.
I mean… “particularly meta” you mean less viable than elf greatsword? Lmao
If this post is about reworking riposte, I think its also a post about how to make riposte good yeah?
One of the ways to make riposte good is to have a build that can synergize with it.
As it stands, the talents I mentioned are also kinda outdated.
Who is going to take Templar’s knowledge over Sigil or Ferver ( just replace it with a riposte synergy )
Who is going to take always prepared when BoP doesn’t get full benefit from it and WHC gets so many critics that you SHOULDN’T almost ever run out of ammo anyways
Who is going to take I shall judge you all over a 40% CDR or Guaranteed crits?
If you replace these talents and create synergy with a riposte talent line, you achieve more than just trying to load up one talent in a very specific way
I am, but I’m also trying to make Riposte viable as an alternative to Deathknell and Flense without reworking the game by making blocking/parrying more necessary, or by making Riposte into something very different. While added synergies would be good, and some talents are definitely in need of changes, I think Riposte needs to be how it is in the original suggestion to stand on its own, just as almost all talents do. Steel Crescendo for example is one of the few talents that relies on another talent, Salvaged Ammunition, to be effective and that’s a part of why it does not see much use.
Edit: I forgot to mention that the addition of Parry is to make Riposte have some use against Chaos Warriors, as currently it is far too risky to use it against them most of the time. The alternative was making it deal more damage to them but that would only end up being truly effective in low pressure contexts and not against multiple CWs (even as few as 3 CWs makes just kiting and aiming for headshots much more efficient).
Playstyle creating talents do exist on other careers, like Staggering Force on Foot Knight, so I don’t think it would be unreasonable for Riposte to do this on WHC.
Edit 2: Note that blocking a single elite light attack with 60% BCR and then doing a push attack will leave you at 1 stamina shield for all of Saltz’ weapons except the Rapier. This is a dangerous position to be in regardless of skill.
I wasn’t trying to say that your suggestion was off topic, but more that any defence I could give of the skills you suggest replacing would inevitably veer pretty far off topic. I’d agree most of them need tweaking at least. As I said though I don’t wanna derail discussing the potential merits of those talents so will leave my disagreement at that.
If you have further ideas for what might replace those talents to create a parry/riposte playstyle by all means that would be interesting to read.
Synergy and reliance on other talents is fine in my opinion, this thread just highlights a problem with the current talent/trait system; it’s very limiting, often leading to meta choices, must picks.
Increased stagger/flinch potential after parrying sounds like a more situational opportunist
(Shares the same purpose, increased stagger potential against attacking enemies)
Riposte granting 40% parry BCR has some overlap with the parry trait.
Just pointing out these bonuses kinda already exist but the talent/trait system is limiting.
For the first question – You wouldn’t take both.
For the second question – I believe I have adequately explained how the talent would be effective. My goal was not to make it better than Flense which is a very powerful talent, but useful to WHC.
Well… we’ll just have to agree to disagree because I don’t think adding parry to riposte and have it do everything you want it to do is something that is going to just be “useful”
It steps all over the toes of weapon traits and other mechanics on one talent that still isn’t going to synergize with other things in the tree.
It makes opportunist/parry less useful on a talent, that by all rights, should be designed to use those weapon traits to create a playstyle.
We have stagger in the game, and bringing back an outmoded style of gameplay into the current system is incredibly awkward.
You are essentially arguing to put a trait on a level 10 talent AND THEN have it do even more.
I don’t really see how any of this matters. If you pick Riposte you get the benefit of better defense. If you don’t pick the other two talents you may want to put Parry on your weapon for better defense.
We’ve already covered that this form of stagger is different from the stagger that raw power/opportunist grants.
It does synergise with other talents. Cast Away and Charmed Life for example both do, the former working in tandem with weapons that want to use their push attack for the Riposte and for the pushes, the latter with safely disengaging after landing a dangerous riposte. Since it gives a crit, it already works with Assassin. It benefits from Heretic Sighted as that makes landing the riposte safer. Hunter’s Ardour also has a natural synergy with the talent, albeit a minor one.
Can you explain what you mean by all rights?
Why’s that?
Are you telling me that what I suggested would be overpowered? If so, that was already covered earlier in the thread.
A weapon trait
A new stun that is different than stagger
Needs low ping
At level 10 to compete with dps perks that doesn’t require you to change another weapon trait.
I’m merely saying your suggestion for 1 level 10 talent is too complex to be reasonable in a game that really already has other weapon properties that sort of mimic what you’re trying to accomplish.
It comes off as something that is a personal preference that few folks would grasp and is added by a boutique perk at level 10