Well Sounds like Darktide might not have to Worry about PayDay 3 After All

Warhammer 40,000: Darktide General Discussion
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As a fan of PayDay 2, I’ve been watching the release of PayDay 3 sometime this year with a bit of restrained excitement. I’ve never been the biggest PayDay fan, and I don’t know all the ins and outs of the game, it’s history and it’s developer and publisher but it is a very fun game series, and I was hoping that it might be a replacement for Darktide as an excellent coop shooter game.

While I don’t know the full details as I don’t play PD 2 anymore, from what I’ve seen and heard is that on a flip of the dime with no announcements, they launched the game on the epic store and switched all the servers over to Epic which has absolutely mutilated matchmaking. This change also made 2 of the biggest mod frameworks (I believe) completely broken, although the modders were able to fix that very quickly. Additionally, they quite literally just told Linux players that they wouldn’t be able to play the game online anymore and wouldn’t receive any support in the future. This is directly after it was apparently leaked that PD 3 is going to have some sort of microtransaction currency and might be a Freemium model.

I wanted to point this out for 2 reasons. 1 is that for me PayDay 3 was going to be the biggest competitor for coop horde shooter to Darktide, and it’s definitely looking like it might not have the cleanest launch. However something similar is how the complete lack of clear communication has created such a huge and in some cases over reaction. If OverKill had announced earlier that they were planning on the server switch, ending Linux support, and came out and either confirmed or denied certain leaks it would stop people assuming the worst and causing a negative community reaction as a whole. Instead they’ve just gone radio silent and appear to be putting their heads into the ground.

That sounds familiar but I just can’t tell from where…

Here’s a great concise video of a PD Youtuber talking about the whole situation if you want some more informed and better presented information on what’s going on with it.

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I have Payday 3 on my wish list.

I was looking at Space Marine 2, researched it will have PvE Coop, but Coop campaign and not individual missions. So thought it might be too repetitive, we’ll see.

I thought Payday 3 would be the one considering Payday 2 success. Just follow same formula and improve the already solid foundation.

Disappointed and not surprised of how this trend is going.

Pity companies in general do not understand if you build strong reputation. Money comes rolling in and with less effort.

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It’s so easy. Once you have the formula down, just make more of the same and milk milk milk - milk the cow dry.

See Ubisoft’s Assassin’s Creed. They’ve been milking entire container’s worth of income from that franchise ever since 2007. 16 years later, still milking.

It’s a simple thing, but many companies just don’t get it. Although the way 505 games has been behaving, it doesn’t surprise me in the least they gamble all their success away.
Kinda tragic, just like in CD Project Red’s Cyberpunk case. Entirely unnecessary. Come 2025, Overkill Studios will be crawling in front of Blackrock and beg Larry Fink personally to bail their company out.

If the ESG fund will even have any juice left at that point.

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Assassins Creed Valhalla. They purposely delayed their in game shop so that initial reviews were not negatively impacted. Clever, or maybe devious. One of the items in store was faster grinding, pay to skip content because as a great warrior you’re performing fetch quests for NPCs with no lore, no story background for sake of inflating time value of a purchase.

From wider perspective us as the players have caused this. The consumers are the problem. Keep buying, they keep making it.

For Cyberpunk. It takes great confidence to say we’ll refund anyone who wants to because they decided reputation is much more valuable and that people will rebuy the game or risk losing trust when it comes to preorders of next witcher game. They did something right to try to rectify, some other companies inherit speech from politicians and provide waffle. Then there are some that say and do nothing at all.

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You’re not wrong, however it is extremely frustrating how I as a player have never supported any of these actions, have almost never bought microtransactions or in game currency (I have bought content expansions), but none of that matters because enough people spend enough money to ruin it for everyone.

Although to be honest if you still buy Ubisoft games in any capacity at this point? You should know it’s going to be awful.

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I think last purchase of Ubisoft games was Anno 1800 and Far Cry 5

But now the whole BR + skin store era is taking place:

  • Build a game with some sort of good gameplay loop, so that people won’t mind ground hog day repetition.

  • Feed content slowly to give false impression of long term commitment

  • Then it’s time for monetization.

  • What can we price cosmetic i.e. Too high, not enough unit sale, Too low and can’t raise price again without uproar, just that middle ground price to maximise return for overall sales and adjust per month if there is historical spend decline for different items. It is like them playing a commercial game within a game. (I bet they play Industry Giant for learning)

Darktide – People have already paid. There is no monetary loss for someone threatening to quit the game, probably doing them a favour to reduce server overhead. But the karma is impact to losing trust for future games

Maybe the profit margins are so high, it completely negates the need to rectify. But because nothing is said then people assume the worst. This forum has no acknowledgement, it serves more of an informed decision for potential newcomers. People take more notice of negative comments than praises on steam.

But as you said. A number of players are ruining it for everyone.

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After learning about PD3 using the live service model and seeing that Xbox showcase trailer…sheesh. We might be in for Darktide Round 2 with this one.

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Here is the trailer in question:

In my opinion? It looked just “ok.” Nothing really special, and was hoping for a bit more

However for 6 months into “The Year of Payday?” It hasn’t been great so far. And with the trailer I am seriously wondering if we are going to get a delay or not.

Additionally, I know it’s still the weekend, but we haven’t gotten anything else regarding the atrocious update that bricked Payday 2. And also there are still rumors floating around of the premium currency. I really think they need to jump on top of these issues ASAP if they want their game to have good press.

Regardless of all of that, I would heavily suggest against preordering lmao.

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Definitely. Not really seeing anything that makes me want to start fresh when I already have so much Payday 2 content.

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Pure deviousness and exploitative intent. Back in the early 2000’s journalists would have fought against such behavior, nowadays they just go conform or have a half-hearted fake-apology ready. Yet more weight on the shoulders of Gaming Journalism, the most reviled form of Journalism to disgrace our outlets these days.

Yes, we cannot shirk responsibility for this. I personally did my part, I haven’t touched Mainstream Games from the big three (EA, Activision Blizzard, Ubisoft) since EA killed off their Canadian Need For Speed Studio and replaced it with Criterion. I made 1 exception, I bought Ubisoft’s Rayman reboot because it was really well done and content rich. But that was it.

They had to save at least some face. After all they also have GOG as a project and their way into Games Publishing on the line. Remember, they were hailed as the “Savior’s of Gaming” up until Cyberpunk’s launch. They probably took the greatest plunge of Goodwill from well-respected to strongly disliked in recent memory what Gaming is concerned.
Speaking of which, doesn’t it seem suspicious that there is a new “Great Company” every other year until it changes again? Seems they are sitting together and intentionally playing Good Cop, Bad Cop with us. At least some of them.

Welcome to the joys of mob mentality and slave morality (crab-in-the-bucket phenomenon).
The Great Intellectuals of present and past have always lamented these two.
After all, consideration and discipline are not as popular as flashiness and populism. Those with Understanding representing these values are pushed aside, their voices diminished. The emotional herd instinctually marches forward, led around their noses. In unison they only find dullness in spirit as well as numbness of mind. And eventually misery rules the day.
Those who wield power know to exploit these instincts and laugh all the way to the bank or the parliament as even very obvious sub-standard living conditions and products become apparent; even to the untrained eye.
Yet all these circumstances go ignored by a paralyzed mass of people. Comfort and Fear are the strongest shackles this earth has to offer.

You then, as the atmozed thinking individual, are left with the choice that plagued Humanity’s brighter individuals ever since:
To play a losing game or to not play at all.

And in case of mainstream Gaming, this simply means to abstain from partaking. Never purchase early, wait until the inevitable Gold / GOTY / Ultimate / Whatever edition when it hits bargain bin and the game is fixed up, etc.
Still a shame. If you know that things were once different, you always see what potential was wasted and lost in the process.

Might be much worse, honestly.
Darktide is going to enter the Redemption Story Arc pretty soon and we can look forward to an amazing game with few flaws in 2024. We can’t be sure about Payday and Overkill Studios, they’ve lost a lot of their original touch.

The “Live Service” model might be not so different. After all with all the DLCs that came out every other month, you could argue PD2 already was very close to that payment model.
What is the biggest redflag is the switch to Epic and very clearly Overkill Studios allowing themselves to be bribed by a much inferior service provider.
Steam is King.
GOG is Queen.
Epic is Jack.

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I feel like you might have flexed your literature glands a bit too hard in this part, but I understand and agree with what you’re saying. Although I will never understand people who spend money in such egregious ways. My brother has spent hundreds on mobile games and EA Sports games Card Packs and I have never understood why.

I wouldn’t say this as a solid guarantee and I think your time table is somewhat generous. Maybe sometime in 2024? Hopefully in at least a year? But I’ve learned to not take such things for granted. However I don’t think DT will be “abaondoned” unless the Xbox launch absolutely tanks which seems unlikely.

Additionally if Payday 3 has a bad launch it is over. Starbreeze will almost certainly go fully bankrupt this time, so there will be no “redemption story.” Additionally they are trying to get additional investors to invest in new IPs, which takes resources or at least thought away from the upcoming PD game, and based on their non PD games seems unwise and premature.

I 100% consider PD 2 to have been a “live service” game, at least for the last couple of years, and I don’t see why people wouldn’t.

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Honestly at this point. Maybe it is a sign to just say goodbye to gaming era if it’s all heading this way.

For price vs entertainment I’ve had more value out of Netflix and Amazon Prime.

It feels like only once every few years something good comes along. I mean wow look at that player concurrent count for Left 4 Dead 2. Same kind of player count you get only with new release games, even though it’s like over 10 years old. They added another campaign couple of years ago and still recent bug fix updates too.

A game with such simple mechanics, no loot or gear. Maybe I should reinstall.

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I wholeheartedly disagree. It’s the same idea as saying all movies/tv shows/music released today is bad. If you only look at the surface level all you get is bad. If you dig deeper, there is tons of stuff new and old that are amazing.

LFD 2 is such an anomaly to me. I have never played it so take this with a grain of salt, but I don’t believe it would do well if it was released today. There are tons of old multiplayer games that are super fun etc, but none of them are anywhere near LFD 2. I don’t think any game will ever replicate it’s success and longevity ever again, or ar the very least in the foreseeable future.

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I wouldn’t be quite that pessimistic - but it does appear that a substantial portion of the traditionally PC gaming sphere is headed towards a place where a size-able portion of hardcore and/or old-school gamer crowd is going to be largely disappointed.

It seems like the bigger developer and the more outside invest is funneling in, the greater the chance of having BS gacha-style manipulative tactics layered into the game. And doubly so if the game is predicated on a higher level of graphics being used to sell the game.

When you think about the legacy of video games from a gameplay perspective and value to the player, a lot of older games I feel already provided a best-in-genre experience, or good enough. It makes it hard to justify spending a ton of money chasing new games and newer hardware ware if you’re getting something that isn’t any better than what came before. And bigger studios basically don’t take risks gameplay wise - they just regurgitate the same formula over and over and try to pass it off as the latest and greatest.

Smaller independent studios is where the innovation happens, at least gameplay wise.

Edit: I’ll add this little bit: With a lot of newer games, I feel like the “new stuff” that was added often doesn’t make up for the “good old stuff” that was cut. And then you add on a layer of ever-evolving “annoying stuff” (battle passes, MTX, premium currencies, gacha mechanics, crazy RNG, etc) and it’s hard to conclude that the new thing is really that much better. Maybe it really isn’t.

I was eyeballing Diablo 4 and in anticipation started playing Diablo 2 again. After sinking a bunch of time into D2, and then reading D4 reviews, I came to the conclusion that maybe I should just keep playing D2 more if that’s the fix I’m going for.

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I started playing a Diablo-themed twin stick shooter/bullet heaven called Halls of Torment. Really tickles the Diablo bone.

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Judjing by the trailer Payday 3 looks cheap

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@Mezmorki

Sometimes we buy games not because we love them. But we like it enough as lesser evil after comparing alternatives or simply want to try something new.

PC gaming will still be strong because people need a PC anyway for other things. Work, watch movies, online banking/tax returns, life things. Mindset is might as well be a gaming PC at the same time all in one system for life, work and play.

The same formula works because a segment of players keep buying it and they keep selling it.

Players appeal to dev studios on integrity and threaten to quit. Game has already paid for, person quiting does not make them lose money, maybe some future money as they stop buying skins. You would think players quitting has impact on new player decisions on buying, but the money gained is much then it becomes less of a consequence regardless of bad feedback. That’s the short term thinking. Instead of really thinking if we make the game great, we’ll make even more money. CD Projekt Red, decided to lose millions by giving refunds to anyone who wants it, build trust so they can make even more money on next game. That’s someone that understands the long game, not short term gain.

Some take that risk and do well, some fear that risk and regret. Some made enough and don’t care because the additional effort is not worth the risk. Least effort to maximise rewards.

GaaS

  • Fund using cosmetics, battle passes, season passes.
  • Players are entitled to support based on best effort. No guarantee on fix or response time. No refund either.
  • No guaranteed minimum X years of game development as contractual agreement
  • No guarantee on content quality or frequency as contractual agreement
  • People quit, no loss of upfront revenue, just a small margin of players as potential future revenue who were buying skins etc.
  • Not doing well. Move onto next game. Repeat

SaaS

  • Monthly/annual fee
  • People quit, they lose revenue.
  • Support on best effort. No fix, then simply quit subscription
  • Development stop. Subscription stops
  • Quality of content and frequency drops. You can stop subscription.
  • In their interest to keep it flowing.

Motivation is completely different. So don’t like the term “As A Service” used for games when GaaS puts customer at complete disadvantage compared to other. As a service players want a game to last and want certain quality, quitting doesn’t get their money back. SaaS, you quit and save money in future.

Darktide has several small instances of Mourning Star with around 10 players. Make it larger persistent servers of Mourning Star with alot more players with set population limits and let people transfer between should limits allow, so when you sign in you could always bump into same players. Add social activites, a bar, play silly mini games, interact, chill something social.

You don’t have to make a game big, you just have to make the player feel they’re part of something bigger. Add more map variety that are not reused graphical assets so much, and every quarter release 1-2 more.

I would be happy to pay for SaaS model at reasonable price to justify content and server overhead for a great game I see myself playing regularly.

Don’t buy skins because like the look of it. Buy it based on what new content you’ve received in support at least.

Diablo 4. I love how you have to be a customer in order to post in Diablo 4 forum!

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