We need to have a serious discussion about balance

[weeping.moon]

@John1996

Now I’m sure this will be unpopular, but every class should be able to tackle every kind of threat. This is an essential element in a game that depends on putting four completely different players that have never fought together into the same lobby. While each class has unique abilities and traits, classes should not have their inventories pidgeonholed to fit one specific combat role.

Sadly it is a very popular opinion. Classes not being locked is one of the worst deccisions. This is why everything become so homogenious, and they keep adding rend and brittleness to every weapn and tree. Because they have no idea how to balance all weapons for every class to be vaible. Everything will end up feeling as a reskin in the end.

@John1996

Classes that are too specific often suffer greatly in practice. What may look great on paper at tackling a specific threat often falls short because it does not account for the random chaos of Darktide.

Crazy how it’s not a problem in V2, where almost all specials and elites are the same.

@John1996

Without the Vet’s Brittleness debuffs, Krak nades, shout and Plasma gun the team would be at a significant disadvantage. Remember, in this scenario classes are locked at matchmaking so there’s only one Vet.

How you balance games with classes lock is that one class can deal with specific threats faster or consume less resources i.g. being more efficient than 2 or 3 combined. It doesn’t mean if vet netted run is doomed, it means that dealing with specific threat will eat more team hp, consumables, ammo, etc. It also provides coop gameplay cause your ogryn bodyguard probably would like to work with high damage squshy class in pair. It brings that feeling of you being a part of the team and doing something unique.

And if you don’t lock classes you balance gear - either with quipment weight or limit, so you can’t bring devastating melee and range with every character, or you can’t have a lot of heals, your team will do objectives slower, etc.

In DT you can have 2 plasma VoC vets without any consequences. Or just 4 ogryns, 4 ogryns is the most nobrainer thing, clear evidance - the more ogryns there the easier Orthus offensive on hard mode.

@John1996

Take for example the fan favorite Crusher ambush. Crushers are often quiet compared to the background noise of combat/music and blend in very well to the often dark corridors of Darktide.

So emmm…make them not silent? Just like their V2 predecessor?

Besting Chaos Warriors With a Rapier — Vermintide 2

[souI23]

I disagree. In my opinion there are not OP weapons (but I agree: duelling sword on Psyker only), rather a lot of dull options to buff, Gunners (and ranged enemies in particular) are still a dangerous threat and using a kit specialized in armor damage (example vs Carapace) still makes a difference

If I agree that even PvE must be balanced… it’s also true that, facing a camputer, an AI, means that after 999999 hours you mastered the game so it’s normal find it easy. Increasing the difficulty would mean making happy the 0,1% of tryharders but having an unfair and artificial game

Indeed, at the moment, the % of players able to handle Auric T5, is really, really small

Just my two cents, sorry but I’m not interesting in a discussion

[BFCInsomnia]

@Crayvun

To me, high difficulty should require the player to be on their toes, dodging, blocking, using abilities wisely. Only way to do that is to increase the enemies lethality while keeping the mob density high. (but not increase enemy resistances at all).

Sounds like “shocktroops, endless hoard, increased ability CD” modifier for maelstrom to me.

Something I’m all for btw.

[Ralendil]

@Vertraxxx

first, the op weapons need to be brought down to a proper balance, and the underperforming weapons need buffs. otherwise, difficulty balance will collapse, and the game will turn into a mere walking simulator, losing its challenge and becoming boring.

I would say that Fatshark defined the new balance with this patch.
So, don’t expect them to nerf the weapons you quoted (I would add void strike staff).
Now, Fatshark needs to put all weapons at the level of a revolver, a void strike staff or, to put a melee weapon, a combat axe.
To be fair, the list is impressive but not enormous. Sure IAG others than the columnus, autopistol, brauto other than the agri, shotguns are the first I think in need of a buff.

About duelling sword, it is strong, but, as the dagger, this is far from OP… I see a lot of other weapons dealing more damages than this one.

@souI23

(but I agree: duelling sword on Psyker only)

Well, psyker is a damage dealer in this game. The question is « is it justified? »
I don’t play psyker, so I don’t feel the right to give an opinion on this point… but fact is psykers deal insane damages and I don’t feel that they die more than the others…

[Index]

@souI23

Increasing the difficulty

doesn´t equal adding a new difficulty setting to make the 1% happy.

clearing is setting isn´t a “right” obtained by buying a game (like some make it out to be)
its a sign of dedication and skill some players thrive for beyond all else.

@souI23

the % of players able to handle Auric T5, is really, really small

and thats in no way the problem of those who do.

there is uprising—>damnation for everybody else to find his place, 5 options to choose from, yet people moan about (not you in that example) the hardest difficulty being… shocker… hard.

and by the time people put 2-4k hours + into a game, it might be time for the devs to reward those long-timers with another tier to the roster.

these are my 2 cents

[adam.szitas]

There is 0% wrong with duelist sword.
Problem lies in the blessings and how much unnecessary bloat there is for dmg calculations.

VT2 had none of this rending, brittleness, increase dmg … etc on weapons. It was on classes and ot much lesser degree.
Two handed hammer was the can opener and with enough AS would deal with hrodes as well but it had sh-t defensive stats.

Meanwhile dual daggers were zooming around with almost 0 cleave.

Darktide however has the problem of having THE most hated enemy of VT2 - ungox archers - as a basic archetype of enemies we meet, so unfortunately we dont have the time to play around with deep melee combat, but we have to delete melee asap so we have room to kill the ACTUAL threats.

[Molonious]

@Vertraxxx

difficulty balance will collapse

The difficulty for the overwhelmingly vast majority of players doesn’t appear to have any issue. As you note, most players aren’t terribly skilled, they’re largely playing at Malice or Heresy and find that plenty of challenge. The number of people who find Auric Maelstrom a cakewalk is comparatively tiny. Building the entire game around balancing a finely tuned high end difficulty for a tiny fraction of the userbase, when most players want to e-cosplay and burn heretics an hour or two a week, runs into the problems HD2 recently encountered.

@weeping.moon

And if you don’t lock classes you balance gear - either with quipment weight or limit, so you can’t bring devastating melee and range with every character, or you can’t have a lot of heals, your team will do objectives slower, etc.

In DT you can have 2 plasma VoC vets without any consequences. Or just 4 ogryns, 4 ogryns is the most nobrainer thing, clear evidance - the more ogryns there the easier Orthus offensive on hard mode.

Thinking on this point, what other 4 person PvE coop class shooters limit classes or gear? DT doesn’t, HD2 doesn’t, DRG doesn’t. It’s been many moons but I don’t think PayDay does either. The only game I can think of is L4D/L4D2, where characters are unique for story purposes, but there aren’t class builds or restrictions on weapons that I can recall.

[weeping.moon]

If we are talking only about l4d alike coops - V2 fully, V1 partialy. Other games doing that “efficiency” balance.

In DRG it’s quite noticable when you don’t have scout+engy combo and mining goes slower or when you don’t have engy pads and can’t just land wherever you want. Or when you don’t have gunner’s combat power aswell as dome shield for revives. And DRG is like more chill and way less complex game, but that coop synergy feels better.

Killing floor 2 - last time i played was long time ago. Since it’s 6 players PvE coop having double classes is ok balance wise. You mostly need 1 great medic and he will save the game, not having medic is a disaster almost, having 2 medics is ok. Same for the rest of classes - 2 of the same classes in the team of 6 is fine, but more of that feels bad both in combat and in the run economy, cause different classes need different ammount of money to gear up.

KF2 also has weight system, so you can’t just buy 3 giga weapons.

GTFO - mission depended, but most of the time you want to have different types of gear - some turrets or mines, goo gun, scanner for a stealth part. But in GTFO you’re very squishy overall and can’t outrun or kite, aswell objectives and waves encounters designed for a tight teamplay and coordination.

Overall in all those games there are moments “wish x class/gear was here” and some sort of consequences if premission planing and gear synergy is bad.

Atleast it was like that when i was playing them, maybe those games went the same route as DT nowdays.

But in DT you just need anyone to remove dogs/nets. Well sometimes people ask zealot to take Thammer for monstrous maelstrom, or 1 of 2 purgatus psykers will switch their staff or maybe he will not and it doesn’t matter overall. Part of the problem - 1 minute timer at the pre-mission screen you can’t pause, noone is gonna plan anything in 1 minute.

You probably will notice lack of some class or weapon in a full psyker/vet/zealot run. But it happens extremely rare.

@Molonious

runs into the problems HD2 recently encountered.

It’s not what happend with HD2. The fact some devs doing balance poorely, doesn’t mean balance shouldn’t be a thing.

[Vertraxxx]

the issue arises when considering players of the appropriate level playing at the appropriate difficulty. for example, it’s not a problem if a beginner uses an overpowered (op) weapon to play at a high difficulty, but when a group of four reasonably skilled players use multiple op weapons, the game suddenly becomes too easy and completely loses its appeal.

beginners may sometimes aim for higher difficulties just for the rewards, but on the other hand, experienced players will never play on heresy or malice. i believe difficulty should be a challenge for a group of four players who have the appropriate level of skill (with some flexibility, of course).

if weapons like the bolter or plasma get nerfed and no longer work well at the difficulty you’re currently playing, it means that difficulty level isn’t suitable for your skill level. if you can’t perform well on heresy, then malice is your appropriate level. if malice feels too hard, then uprising is where you should be.

if revolvers, plasma, bolter, power swords, or duelling swords aren’t overpowered, then why do almost all players on higher difficulties use only those weapons? why do we see almost no players using shredder auto pistols or headhunter autoguns? the answer is obvious.

the solution is either to introduce an even higher difficulty level or to balance the weapons, but in either case, the goal is essentially the same.

the game needs to consider all types of players, from beginners to the most advanced, and account for their different needs.

[weeping.moon]

@Vertraxxx

the solution is either to introduce an even higher difficulty level or to balance the weapons, but in either case, the goal is essentially the same.

Introducing new difficulty lvl without additional rewards is better, cause players will just say “ok, this is too hard for me, i will stay on difficulty x”

But telling people they don’t belong to the current difficulty after balance changes? Oh boy… too much for an ego to handle. Ironicaly those big ego peeps are the same that saying “it’s just a game” and “i play casualy for fun”

Idealy we need a moded realm or some tool with sliders so we can tune mobs hp, dmg, cooldowns, supplies, etc.

[Ralendil]

@weeping.moon

GTFO - mission depended, but most of the time you want to have different types of gear - some turrets or mines, goo gun, scanner for a stealth part. But in GTFO you’re very squishy overall and can’t outrun or kite, aswell objectives and waves encounters designed for a tight teamplay and coordination.

GTFO is a game I truly wanted to try. But the reviews on steam have dissuaded me as it seems there is no team system in the game. So something like in darktide where you join a mission and the game fulfill the entire team with players.

@weeping.moon

Introducing new difficulty lvl without additional rewards is better, cause players will just say “ok, this is too hard for me, i will stay on difficulty x”

In the no reward, think about penances. There should be NO penance linked to the new difficulty level
For materials, soon enough we will be flooded by the materials…

[weeping.moon]

@Ralendil

seems there is no team system in the game

Absolutely horrible idea, they added matchmaking later and too late. It also was overpriced for being early access game.

Back 4 blood did the same thing kinda - they turned off matchmaking for the hardest difficulty.

@Ralendil

In the no reward, think about penances. There should be NO penance linked to the new difficulty level

In V2 none of Okri’s challenges asking players to do them on Cata.

Subjectively i think players should get extra skins for doing the hardest difficulty and challenges, there is no rational argument why palyers shouldn’t be rewarded for being gigagamers.

There was a thread on this forum dude soloed Orthus twins on the hard mode. If i were a dev i would give him a unique frame or title like “the true chad of Atoma”

But objectively - it’s better not to devide players for that, cause it will create another drama and jealous cries.

[Ralendil]

@weeping.moon

Absolutely horrible idea, they added matchmaking later and too late. It also was overpriced for being early access game.

So now there is a matchmaking? maybe I should try it. It looks really good.

[SilverJack]

@ForumWarrior

While we are talking about ranged enemies, these mobs frankly suck.

@ForumWarrior

Shooters were buffed, and it was such a great change because they were a deadly threat again.

Buffing or reworking shotgunners and then gunners in the future would’ve been a better play than buffing shooters. I did not enjoy shooting for four people all of the time in practically every pub I played or being pigeonholed into anti-shooter Vet just for a chance of winning if I dared step outside Auric Maelstrom pubs during the shooter buff days and frankly nothing about this game has ever angered me as much as the games I played then and I’ve been playing Darktide across every era of the game’s life so far. The shooter buff days were part of my time off yet it felt like I was performing labor online on behalf of others rather than playing a game. If you played that patch with a premade or only in Auric Maelstrom, you genuinely had it real easy, sorry to break it to you.

Personally, I think the best path for a ranged enemy buff is this: Fatshark should try buffing or changing certain elite melee attacks along with buffing their ranged attacks to something more dangerous or allowing them to use primitive grenades of some sort. Maybe even include additional verticality in spawn areas so ranged enemies cluster less. Anything would be better than turning Shooters into Gunners again. It’s much more reasonable to try and buff Shotgunners or Gunners than shooters because pubs will actually kill them as much as possible; they don’t leave strays the way they so often do with shooters.

However, I agree with the general sentiment of your post. Every character is pretty powerful now. I’ve speculated recently that console players must have a truly abysmal win rate which would explain FatShark’s willingness to buff player power as much as they have. For this to change at all I expect only fixing performance issues and improving the console control scheme will turn things around in a meaningful way but I’d like to be wrong about that, it would be much simpler to get a healthier game if it weren’t the case.

[weeping.moon]

Game is kinda dead, i suppose you will find players faster via discord now than using matchmaking, that’s the irony they said “use discord” when everyone was asking for mm, and when they added mm it was too late, people already switched to discord. Matchmaking is also kinda shallow, there is no lobby browser, as i remember. Idk you always can refund tho.

And overall it depends what do you expect from GTFO. Tbh it’s hard to recommend it in 2024 until you really want that unique experience of sci-fi horror vibes + half-stealth/survival tight coop. The game doesn’t have builds, complex stats system and stuff. It relies on team communication, bjectives that ask for coordination and sometimes pre-planning.

[mikesol91]

Game balance is ok at the moment. Every weapon on all classes are strong (some stronger than others but this is just inevitable).

On aurics i still see players go down pretty easily even using all this “powercreep”. So nowadays it’s exclusively about SKILL. Not powerful weapons, not powerful builds, not powerful blessings; we all have plenty of these. Skill though? This is what differentiates the good from the bad player right now and it’s great by me.

So enough about balance. Itemization update was great. That’s the end of it. Time for FS to introduce whole new weapons and missions. This is the most important right now.

[CobaltNinja]

@Mezmorki

As for the difficulty level - make Auric more difficult. If most of the casual base is playing Malice and Heresy, applying these changes to Auric won’t affect them eitherway.

It honestly doesn’t seem like it’d be too hard to have enemy behavior vary based on difficulty level. We should do this.

[Frish]

If there’s one thing for certain it’s that you’ll never please everyone in regards to balance…

Best thing to do, is let players please themselves. More modifiers and ability to curate maps more to individual preference. Throw in a lobby browser (or enhanced player finder) and you can challenge yourself and others to heart’s content!

Bonus points for introducing the old gunner AI-esque changes as a modifier!!

[Molonious]

@weeping.moon

If we are talking only about l4d alike coops - V2 fully, V1 partialy. Other games doing that “efficiency” balance.

V2’s about the only one I can think of (though I’m unsure if that’s more a Lore thing like L4D or an actual balancing decision), but I don’t think KF2’s weight system is really quite the same thing.

As far as “wish X class/gear was here” feel, I’d agree that we don’t really see that in Darktide the same way you might feel it in DRG, but DRG is also built around doing a lot more. In Darktide, the game is basically on rails, you’re not freeform exploring or modifying/destroying the environment and terrain or needing to mine/gather resources that can appear anywhere, you’re just killing your way through and picking up stuff in fixed (if randomized) places, and as far as that goes in DRG you can do fine with most any combination of classes.

@Vertraxxx

if revolvers, plasma, bolter, power swords, or duelling swords aren’t overpowered, then why do almost all players on higher difficulties use only those weapons? why do we see almost no players using shredder auto pistols or headhunter autoguns? the answer is obvious.

I’m going to posit that this game has too many weapons, at least to balance in the way you’re looking for, and isn’t necessarily trying to.

To give an example, between the eighteen different patterns of Las and Auto guns we have in the Darktide, as far as tabletop 40k is concerned they’re all the exact same thing, R24" A1 S3 AP0 D1 Rapid Fire (extra shot at half range). Tabletop 40k doesn’t even try to differentiate such weapons. Same thing with the revolvers, las pistols, and autopistols, tabletop 40k would consider those all R12" A1 S3 AP0 D1 Pistol (usable in melee).

The game has decided to go whole hog in on putting a large and diverse array of weapons in the game to reflect the universe, not a tight set of well balanced options. If one was going to make a game with cold war shoulder arms in the same way with loving realistic handling and damage detail baked into each one, and players had the choice of a G3, a FAL, an M16, or an AK74, if we’re looking at balance, literally nobody is ever going to pick the G3 or AK74 if they want the “best” weapons. If you want something heavy you’d take the FAL and shave 30-50% off your handling time while putting the same damage downrange relative to a G3, and if you want something light you’d take the M16 over the AK for similar reasons. However, the G3 and AK74 were important weapons to the time period and had their own advantages that just can’t be expressed within a shooter game, there’s still good reason to include them even if they wouldn’t necessarily be relevant in a “meta” sense. However, if one were making a platoon level wargame, these weapons would probably all be considered largely identical.

[Palumtra]

It’s funny how our characters babble about calling in the Space Marines yet we obliterate threats that otherwise even they would struggle with. (DH, Beast of Nurgle etc)