Waystalker forgotten in the BBB

Waystalker:
As nothing was changed with Waystalker in the BBB patch, and her last two rows are still kind of dull and too passive, I thought I’d make a thread to discuss why, and maybe see what can be done about it.

There’s barely any diverse or interesting builds other than Asrai Focus + Kurnous’ Reward, as they passively offer too much, when compared to the alternatives.

In my opinion, getting rid of the Asrai Focus + Kurnous’ Reward combination altogether, and replacing those Talents with more interesting, and less passive, mechanics- would be better (adding CDR and ammo regen inherently to the other Ults).

I’ve played Elgi since V1, and before WoM changes, and this iteration of WS, compared to every other Career in the game, is quite dull. Mainly because of those two last Talent rows.

Level 10 Row is awesome.
Level 20 Row is awesome.

This picture is here to show the current state of Talent choice.

X = not worth using, reasons described below
? = questionable Talent or may be worth using in certain circumstances

?:
Mainstay:
The majority of Kerillian’s Weapons don’t use much stagger to deal their damage, and rely more on headshots or fast single target damage. Smiter would be better suited for this position.

Waystalker is also missing the Power necessary to make use of it.

Piercing Shot:
Is overshadowed by Kurnous’ Reward, other than on Lord Bosses and Monsters, if you can spam enough, but that means less ammo in general.


X:
Fervent Huntress:
It’s too reliant on specific enemies, and is overshadowed by Asrai Focus. It can be ok for survival on specific high difficulty modes, but feels like it’s missing something.

Ricochet:

  • Completely useless, because of pinpoint accuracy of Kerillian’s Ranged Weapons
  • Vermintide maps and details (objects/terrain) make it extremely difficult to land an actual ricochet, even if you’re trying
  • With Hagbane, the initial Ricochet explosion does no damage, which was the only reason people thought it may be a decent Talent.
  • The Arrows stop bouncing after the first bounce. *

Another game where this mechanic exists and is done well is OW, the character Sigma. The reason it works in that game is because his orbs can bounce as many times as they want within a certain distance, only exploding once they reach the distance his attacks are capped at or if they hit an enemy. *

The maps are simpler and more basic, with not a huge number of open spaces.

The character has unlimited ammo.

The projectiles are huge, and the enemy hitboxes are bigger.

Loaded Bow:
Trueshot Volley is already unreliable, this Talent effectively makes it more reliable, but removes the Ammo regeneration, which is why Kurnous’ Reward or Piercing Shot are better.

(if the changes I mention: about Cooldown Reduction on all Ults and Ammo from all Ults, while deleting Asrai Focus and Kurnous’ Reward, this will be a good choice)


My recommendations:
Kerillian has no damage reduction, and relies on THP and her regen as a survival mechanic. As she’s more mobile, focus should be put on movement and THP Generation rather than Damage Reduction.

  • Remove Asrai Focus
  • Reduce ALL Ult Cooldowns by 10%
  • Remove Kurnous’ Reward
  • Add Ammo Regeneration on Special kills to ALL Ults (as she has no other source of ammunition)

What to do with those two rows?
25:

As Kerillian has no Damage Reduction, Talents on this row should offer some defensive benefit too. WS also receives very few melee buffs, so something interesting could be done there.

Fervent Huntress:
Keep the current mechanic, but add:

Fervent Huntress gains a damage bonus to 1H Weapons (maybe Spear too) after a Ranged kill on Specials/Elites. This combos extremely well with Bloodshot, and would make a cool mobility Weapon switching build.

  • All of Kerillians 1H Weapons have Single Target Heavy Attacks with no attack prior, so she can do one Charged hit for Bloodshot and return to Range
  • This will work better if Mainstay becomes Smiter

Ricochet:
Remove Ricochet and replace it with something else. It’s useless.

Asrai Focus:
Remove Asrai Focus and replace it. The talent is too passive and boring, and also too good. When stacked with 10% CDR on Trinket, for 30% CDR (there’s no reason to stack Crit on WS, unless you’re running a 2H Weapon), it’s unbeatable.

Ideas:
IGNORE NUMBERS, AS THESE ARE JUST IDEAS
Match an offensive and defensive pick.

  • Headshots cause arrows to split(shotgun) OR bounce between enemies, hitting more enemies for 50% of the damage (take the cleave into account) Shortbow also uses Bloodshot, and Longbow isn’t amazing for Hordes, so it could work as Cleave won’t be an issue with it.
  • Kills on ‘x’ enemy cause Amaranthe to tick once (20 second cooldown)
  • Execute on range (15% more damage on enemies below 50%)
  • Health generation increased by ‘x’ (combos well with Amaranthe)
  • Increased dodge range/increased amount of dodges
  • 1H/DW damage bonuses: Killing ‘x’ enemy increases your next dodge range by 100% (can pass through enemies)
  • Gain stacking Crit% per headshot, lasts all match (I miss her old Crit build :’) )
  • Enemies close to Kerillian increase her dodge distance (similar to how the proximity Power stacking Talent on Mercenary Kruber works)
  • Camouflage: enemies become less likely to target you after ‘x’
  • Movement Speed
  • Bleeding enemies take 20% more damage (for Serrated Shots)

30:

  • Replace Kurnous’ Reward
  • If Ammo and CDR are added to the Ults, leave Piercing Shot and Loaded Bow alone

Ideas for an Ult to replace Kurnous’ Reward:

  • Trueshot Barrage: shoot lots of smaller arrows, so it becomes a sort of Crowd Clear, and looks cool
  • Trueshot killing a Special buffs the party for 1 minute with ‘x’.
  • Trueshot also makes Kerillian leap back 15 ft (may not work, because of sometimes having to shotgun it)

Additional:

  • Handmaiden’s Ult is still the worst in the game, hitbox too small for Crit stacks and bad positioning from bleed/Crit stacks. I just want to Ult like every other character (even FK Kruber’s AS Ult procs off dead bodies, and with block-cancelling in front of Hordes)
  • Handmaiden Focused Spirit being removed by FF sucks. This mechanic also makes no sense, as no other Power increase on any other Melee Character can be removed by damage, especially FF.
  • Shade’s Exploit Weakness (Bleed and Poison damage increase) is useless now that the Bleed stacking bug has been fixed. It’s best for Daggers and SnD, but they work better with Cruelty or Exquisite Huntress, anyway.

As usual, I’ll add suggestions and good points from people responding.

9 Likes

I feel like Kurnous’ could stay with tweaks. I was thinking like 10% per Ult special/elite kill base, with Kurnous’ taking it up to 20%. Both capped at one proc. I guess it’s a sizeable nerf overall to Kurnous’ builds, but 20% every Ult still seems like a lot to me compared to other ranged classes. I dunno am I being too harsh here? Could Kurnous’ be 30% assuming still limited to 1 proc?

1 Like

Loaded Bow actually still gives you ammo generation albeit a feast or famine situation(Skaven horde vs Chaos or Beastmen) if you’re running Conservative Shooter on your bow and had it out while your ult is hitting heads.It has a nice niche use for offhost Waystalker in Twins gamemodes because of Kurnous Reward not working there.

I’m not saying that it shouldn’t be changed to be better or to have additional effects,just throwing my 2 cents in here about it

3 Likes

I don’t really want to see it nerfed, because it allows you to stay completely ranged throughout the match.

If that playstyle went, you’d be left with sub-par melee, and running out of ammo if you tried that playstyle.

That’s why I’d recommend spreading it to all Ults, maybe at a reduced rate.

The way ammo regen works on Kurnous’ Reward is a pretty passive and dull mechanic, and adding that on to a 20% CDR Talent leaves those two rows feeling really lacklustre and void of any interesting gameplay changes.

I mean compare those last two rows to the other Ranged Career mechanics.

Imma leave my thoughts on this.

Mainstay
I agree this one makes no sense on waystalker, she cant effectively use it in higher difficulties and to top things off many if not most of her weapons are better aligned with crit or/and headshot builds.

Piercing Shot:
The only thing this thing is good for is on legend and sniping out chaos warriors whenever you spot them as well as oppertune boss headshots…which is not a lot indeed. On Cata it just leaves the CW´s borderline dead.

Fervent Huntress:
I actually really like this and am presently using it over Asrai Focus, really feels nice in melee but indeed it does feel a bit lacking and could use a nudge.

Riccochet
This thing…indeed has no reason to exist, too damn awful.

Loaded bow
To be fair this one is actually pretty good, especially with high CDR and a conc pot…or rather it would be if it wasnt soo damn unreliable.

I am surprised you´d advocate for both focus on movement and the removal of huntress : P (Red cross over on image)

But jokes aside i like all these.

Honestly i´d rather it keep the movespeed and gain some other minor buff ontop :cry:

Being boring or not aside it´s too ridiculously overpowered relative to everything else, the only time you wouldnt take it and not feel a little bad is if it replaced Ariels boon.

Ideally yep, honestly at the present you are stuck with it if you wana use hagbane or shortbow which kinda kills build diversity.

D3 Demon Hunter multishot!? :star_struck:

Dual 1hand repeating crossbows for keri when?

Handmaidens ult is not necessarily bad but it´s indeed probably the least satisfying to use, and focused spirit being a silly gimmick is also sad indeed. Shade meanwhile could indeed use a buff to exploit weakness…maybe one that raises bleed stacking cap? Or perphas armor piercing?

1 Like

I didn’t say to remove it! Updated the image with a key. Sorry for the confusion. :slight_smile:

I meant Move Speed + one strong attack, which would make a good combo with Bloodshot, and make it feel a bit different from BH.

That would be cool actually.

Ideally, I’d have it work kind of like Flense, so it wasn’t capped to specific Weapons and attacks, and then increase the actual bleed damage and not damage to bleed.

Or Crits also cause enemies to bleed for a % of their health pool. (Wrath of The Lich King Deep Wounds style. It makes the Crits feel really meaty)

Agree with everything else you’ve said.

1 Like

Uh,what? There is a Cata CW oneshot bp.You just need EP and 20% power VS them(Chaos+Armor).Maulers on the other hand needs Serrated+EP+10% Chaos.It is actually one of the better skill based ult out there that makes Waystalker fun to play while still being pretty viable for Cata+ contents.BH cant dumpster Stormfiend and Troll even with a pot as fast as she could.Also this ult is a top pick for Nurgloth because of the extra Berserker damage it does(with 0 cd to boot)

4 Likes

Definitely agreed it’s boring and passive as it stands.

Ok I just disagree that any class needs that much ammo generation. Compare it to the other ranged classes and it’s completely absurd, like actually laughably over the top. You can get 60% of your ammo back from 1 Ult and have 0 reliance on weapon traits for sustain. This on top of having a way bigger ammo pool boost than any other ranged career (+100% rather than +50%). Shortbow barely even needs anything more than scrounger to get to the next ammo box no issue at all, and on top of getting 5 arrows per scrounger proc, you’re also getting anywhere from 20-60!!! back when you Ult.

I’m happy to hear out your reasoning but I’m struggling to see how that kind of ammo generation is even vaguely justifiable. It’s kind of fine, albeit hilariously overkill for Longbow/Shortbow sustain; however,
Hagbane is super strong and is clearly designed to be limited by its ammo capacity but it’s just not limited at all on WS. Spam all day with no worries. It’s not something she needs or has any justification having honestly.

For me, WS desperately needs more build options and more interesting gameplay altering talents. However, it NEEDS to come with a strong nerf for Kurnous’ or she’ll just be oppressively strong.

2 Likes

I never stop shooting through the entire match. I use Conservative Shooter, and if I can’t go for headshots I go for body shots. I play as aggresively with shooting until I’m low ammo, and then play slow and focus Specials, until I can Ult one again.

There’s literally nothing stopping you from spamming from the start to the finish of the match, and as it’s the main focus of her role, you should.

It also lets you play Barrage/Hunter on other Bows.

She has little to no Melee Talents (Drakira’s Alacrity?), so playing in Melee is pretty weak.

That’s why my changes focus on mobility over DMGR. It allows her to stay away and spam shoot. It also gives her a different playstyle to the less mobile Ranged Careers.

Kurnous’ Reward and Asrai Focus. Talents like these are so good that they are effectively no-brain picks. Even if the other talents in the same rows got buffed or changed, these 2 would still be taken because of how good they are. So I completely agree with the above statement of making the ammo regen a passive as WS has no other reliable way of restocking ammo like Huntsman(passive, 10% ammo on special kill talent and/or Conservative) and Bounty Hunter(Scounger) do.
I would add that the ammo return can only proc once per ult, so you can only get back 30% of your ammo per ult. This would alleviate the Hag-spam problem, to a degree anyway.

With a change like this other playstyles actually become viable. Loaded bow for greater lethality per ult and Piercing Shot to destroy Bosses/Lords. Actually, now that I think about it. Piercing Shot could completely screw things up if you happen to land a few headshots on specials, which is not that hard. On cata, legend twitch and other special infested difficulties, you could refill your entire ammo reserve in no time.

Two solutions come to mind. Change how much is given back based on whether or not the player kills a special with a headshot or a bodyshot(hence not getting the 100% cooldown). If it’s a headshot, 10% ammo, if it’s a bodyshot kill, it remains the same at 30%. Bosses killed with headshots could refill some % of ammo.
Second idea being is to introduce an internal cooldown for the ammo refund for Piercing Shot but in this case I think elites triggering the ammo refund would incentivise players to shoot stuff other than specials. Internal cooldown being something like 50 seconds or so. WS ult currently sits 80 seconds and the 10% reduction suggested in the original post would take this down to 72 seconds. This means that skillful play(constantly landing headshots) is rewarded with more ammo in comparison to the other talents. Of course holding the ult is always an option but Piercing Shot is high-risk high-reward anyway.

This the kind of talent that usually becomes busted or useless and rarely do I see a decent middle ground.

Increase dodge range, fine. Increased dodge count, BIG no. For one particular reason. Keri’s weapons already have pretty impressive mobility and I’ve found that a weapon having a dodge count higher than 4 is similar to it having 99.

Careful with this one. Isha’s Embrace already touches on the regen through increasing it for Keri by 50%.

Not enough. Movement speed alone is never enough. Something more. Combine this with the proximity dodge distance one or something. Would allow the player to gain and keep distance but not speed off into the immaterium.

1 Like

Sure but most of the ranged careers have lacklustre melee. Why should WS alone get such absurd ammo generation? If we’re just saying that’s how much ammo generation ranged classes should get then I’ll take Scrounger as a passive for BH thanks! I too would like to pick other ranged weapon traits but alas. Also surely picking a non ammo trait should come with the sacrifice of more difficult ammo management. Not for Kurnous’ WS, your ammo is brainlesdly infinite regardless.

You haven’t really answered at all regarding why it’s ok for her to have the most absurd ammo generation in the game besides maybe 30% ammo drop RV (which everyone seems to think needs a nerf anyway). So she can never go into melee at all? I honestly don’t think any class should be able to avoid melee entirely. She’s absurdly strong with hagbane, why should she get limitless spam of it without even having to consume a single brain cell on ammo management? Didn’t you complain about melee reset Scrounger BoP in the past? That’s less ammo generation and requires you to actually get in melee range, so how come WS ammo generation is fine in your book?

Huntsmen can also avoid melee entirely. Though I agree there’s no single talent that matches the Kurnous.
Running away from enemies at high speeds while shooting at them is a Wood Elf thing. They specialise in it. Still, I agree that no career should be able to avoid melee entirely and still be optimal. I think the balance that should be struck is ranged careers being encouraged to dip into melee at regular intervals, like how BH is with Blessed Combat.

For Handmaiden:
I agree that Focused Spirit should not be deactivated by friendly fire. I’m tempted to suggest that it not be deactivated by any small chip damage, though I’m not sure what value would be reasonable (archers do 12, so maybe damage that is 12 or less doesn’t deactivate it?).

1 Like

tbh only things I can really 100% agree on here based on a quick skim read is that Ricochet sucks and focused spirit being removed by FF, also sucks

Huntsman, Unchained, Pyro, BW, RV are all capable of almost unlimited ammo too though. That’s why you can take Barrage/Hunter on them.

Huntsman:
CDR on Trinket, 30% CDR Talent, Keep It Coming, Passive + CS.

Unchained:
Conduit, Thermal Equalizer, Natural Talent. Although you can just take Barrage, as she gets the THP Ult.

Pyro:
Ult + Deathly Dissipation.

BW:
Tranquility and Lingering Flame is another way to get it.

RV:
Grungni’s Cunning, etc.

BH can if you take the Elite kill = Ammo Talent. But I’d argue his killing power, melee Power and Ult more than make up for his ability to run out of ammo, and if you play properly around Crit reset, you can make your ammo last for ages.

I think people also underestimate Just Reward on him. If you take CDR on Trinket, you get 30%+ CDR on every Ult. Recommended if you have a different Boss killer.

Because other Careers can too, and other than with one Ranged Weapon, she just about keeps up with damage even though you have to spam endlessly to do so.

Hagbane is an issue, and we spammed about it on the BBB, but nothing changed. It doesn’t mean she can do the same with Longbow and Swift Bow.

I said that if they add melee damage onto it, it’ll be the only pick on that row.

BH also gets DMGR, Power in melee and damage increase in melee, as well as, access to Saltz ridiculous Melee Weapons.

1 Like

I assume you’re referring to the Rapier, Billhook and the Axe & Falchion? The rest of his melee set is pretty average, including the Flail which is a worse version of Sienna’s Flail. The Billhook is fairly dangerous on BH due to not having thp on cleave, and the Rapier does not scale well with his power bonuses (really a WHC weapon). He has Assassin, but no melee crit chance bonuses on his weapons (unlike Kerillian) or from his talents (unlike like Huntsmen). The Axe and Falchion has been repeatedly nerfed and looks pretty reasonable to me at this point except for L1 being so fast, even its falchion lights have less cleave than the sword lights on Kerillian’s Sword and Dagger (both have the same cleave values but SnD has linesmen on sword lights, AnF does not have any mass modifiers on any attack).

The dmg reduction is good. That’s a strong talent, agreed.

On BH I’d take thp on stagger and a Spear over what he has currently, or thp on cleave and SnD.

1 Like

Meanwhile kurnous reward for instance requires 0 investment to be extremely useful and does not have the unfortunate downside of being useless against chaos spawns and somewhat weak to ogres and minotaurs.

Or weak in a melee situation where you need to emergency clear for that matter.

I am almost 100% certain that i´ve seen multiple cases of a bounty hunter do something like triple ult a stormfiend to oblivion in a matter of seconds, in cataclysm, and no ledges/rivers were involved.

I mean sure, it lets her drag him into the third phase much quicker but isnt it useless from that point? The awkward angle to hit his head combined with his movement and other spawns made me unable to get any real consistent use out of it at least, especially when i got his aggro with it.

And in my mind the third phase is exactly the issue, even a bad team can often make it there as long as CW RNG doesnt hit too hard but once there even a good one likely wipes if they cant burst him.

And so at that point hagbane with str pot…

“Edit”

@DameArstor

I´d like to add to my previous statement a bit, giving up assassin for enhanced power when you are not using hagbane is also a massive downside because the damage increase is so small for melee overall.

But if you are using hagbane you kinda want Kurnous reward for ammo…optionally you can use shortbow but then you also need KR to sustain that manner of shooting unless you have a ammo ranger on hand.

2 Likes

Actually, it is exactly in the 3rd phase where I find the most use for Piercing Shot at he needs only a few hits to go down, on Legend anyway. Cataclysm is basically double the number of shots but even then, it is hardly impossible. And it is the easiest to land headshots when you have aggro otherwise it IS very tricky to land them because of his small headshot hitbox.

2 Likes

Really? If memory serves i see myself just busy flying around from here to there or hopping around desperately to avoid him knocking me flying or his minions oneshotting me. Having someone get his aggro so i can quickly clear surrounding enemies before unloading a orange juiced hagbane barrel on his girth felt far more reliable.

Well i suppose it´s a matter of preference but i still think having to invest a lot of power vs to get any use of the talent just to make it good against chaos warriors feels like a sizeable investment with low returns when compared to the other two.

When they arent going completely haywire that is.

2 Likes

When this change was happening back in the day, I talked for a bit with the Dev. I just don’t see the purpose of ricochet… it’s supposed to have unlimited penetration on bounced shots, they’re nearly impossible to line up. And when going for head shots with a flat wall behind, the arrow bounces back and FF yourself.

It should just be changed to a penetration buff and scrape the bouncing. It’d have to be tested, but something like allowing her arrows to go through armour or simply just letting them go through more targets at reduced damage.

The ammo back on ult should be a passive and then reduce her Base ammo back to the normal amount.

1 Like

maybe allowing the projectiles to fork so it’ll split/shotgun out into two projectiles when it hits a unit?

could have some funny interactivity with swiftbow+bloodshot

although tbh some sort of flat stat buff like extra ranged cleave would be easiest and probably the best play

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