Ogrin taunt, staggers those guys too.
That talent is actively bad and makes the ability worse. It’s been like this in VT2 and it’s even worse here.
Vet shout is a top 2 ability, yes. Does that make vet the best? No, absolutely not.
Just as a sidenote; there’s nothing wrong with an easier to use option that’s viable, that’s ok to exist too.
I wonder if op plays auric let alone damnation
I don’t doubt it, you don’t need to be that super good or knowledgeable to make it through damnation.
It wasn’t meant as some backhanded insult. By your own admission you haven’t played vets “in literal years”. Like I said, game’s been out 2 years. However much you played DT back in beta is irrelevant, practically everything about it especially regarding balance has changed since then. Again, not meant as an insult. It’s just how it is.
Most games are full of nuance like that. It’s normal for a game to be designed in a way where some classes, builds, abilities, weapons etc. are easier than others. Easy in this context means higher returns for less effort. And then there’s the opposite: much, much higher effort, but with the potential for even higher returns total. And every shade inbetween ofc.
This way the game offers something for as many different types players as possible, whether it’s gameplay, challenge, or learning courve. It also acts as a balancing element. The BLM in FFXIV by design has ~10% higher max DPS than any other ranged class, but only if you play it absolutely flawlessly and know everything about the fights inside and out. If you make even a few minor mistakes, you would’ve done more dmg with any of the easier classes instead. That’s similar to the relationship psykers & vets have in DT.
Psykers aren’t just “strong”, they’re insane whether you’re looking at their dmg or toolset & ability to handle any situation. But you really need to know your stuff to play them right. 
True but saying vet is easy mode when psyker and zealot exist is some serious inexperience
I play every class overall, I’d say shout veteran is by far the easiest to faceroll with with how spammable VOC gets on aurics. (Due to feeding you specials to give CDR)
I had to stop using it just because it was so boring compared to anything else. At least zealot and psyker have to try a little, veteran doesn’t even have to do that.
Oh for sure, not disagreeing there.
The whole thing sounds like someone trying out something new and then being surprised it wasn’t the hardest thing they ever did.
As if a first impression was enough to give good balance feedback.
Played since beta means I’ve played in all that time. For three years, almost every day. Not that I haven’t played it since. But I’ve played psyker the most, and veteran the least.
But that actually supports my point. My psyker is ~2100 truelevel. I play it (I hereby claim) extremely well. I am a much better psyker than I am a veteran player. And yet despite having probably no more than 40-50 hours total veteran time played, the game feels easier when playing a shout-veteran.
I agree.
Everything can’t be perfectly balanced unless it’s either completely identical, or it’s been computed and adjusted for decades. Chances are if things aren’t identical, there’s going to be one class that does more damage than the rest, a class that is better at ranged, a class that’s better at melee, etc.
And making different skill ceilings for different classes is also a possible design choice. I think a famous example is the difference between how the different races are handled in starcraft II, with ,for example, protoss often being considered a more noob-friendly race (make a bunch of units, move them around as a clump, the infamous “protoss death-ball”), compared with the zerg race which is very APM heavy and requires lots of larvae, queen, and creep micromanagement.
All that said (and yours are all good points), the reason I made this thread is that the shout has erred on the side of too strong for too little effort. It’s not just that class A is on one end of the spectrum on ability X, and class B is on the other end of the spectrum with ability Z. It’s like the shout broke the scale (in a way similar to how smite psyker breaks the melee-mobs only modifier, and I have agreed with people who have created threads on how broken it is).
With shout it becomes especially obvious if multiple veterans are together and can basically cycle shouts. You sort of have to try it to experience it.
Yes but the game is about more than just how much damage you can output. Purgatus psyker has the most extreme damage potential, but it’s decidedly not a cakewalk playing it compared to how a shout-veteran affects the game.
Incidentally I’m also not complaining about psyker or claiming it needs buffs. I’m complaining about a specific ability on veterans.
It doesn’t tho. It makes it harder than if you don’t take it
weird how its the complete opposite for me, i get carpal tunnel inflammation after a few games when i play my main, and then i sleep when i touch my psyker, which is my second most played tbf
everything psyker does gives you toughness back, it’s so cosy you don’t need voc, at least the way i play it, with all the toughness regen thingys
with this on, which is basically Confirmed Kills on steroid
with all the gunners and shotgunners around this is 100% uptime
wait WTF
did they buff Warp Siphon? it used to be Elite only or i’m tripping?!!??!?!
no it had a mod to be able to activate it with elite kills, now they included it in the base keystone, that is a significant buff
Agreed. That is weird.
I feel like a lot of you are talking past each other. @Margeret-Dayhoff seems to mostly be taking issue with just how easy shout vet is to play, which is a fair criticism. In terms of pure effort it’s probably one of the absolutely most simplistic of any playstyles (except for maybe smyker) while absolutely trivializing the game. Run around, mash shout effectively on cooldown, otherwise just play normally. There’s basically no additional input needed to get an absurdly effective consistent output. It’s pretty much impossible to not get value from it.
While you can argue about how much zealot/psyker can bring to the table in comparison, they largely at least have to adjust how they play and have other downsides associated. (EG: Psyker being made of tissue paper if anything goes wrong)
That said, I do agree with people pointing out the res is mostly a trap. 
correct me if i’m wrong, but i think Warp Siphon was different before
I don’t remember Warp Siphon being different, though not having perfect memory of course. But you might be getting it mixed up with Overpowering Souls from Empowered Psionics
I almost never play Warp Siphon builds unless I’m running some sort of meme build like Surge crit build (I find it’s just as good if not better than surge with disrupt destiny).
My preferred play for almost anything is purgatus with brain burst+venting shriek and empowered psionics.
and i Only played with Warp Syphon for the Essence Harvest combo, and i clearly remember that they had a shitty activation mechanic
like 4% chanche every enemies you and your team kills, but then there was the perk mod which would give you a stack per elite kill
shame this game fell so umpopular after patch 13 that i can’t find anything in the media, (but i’m doing research)
this image is from 10 months ago, so i guess i was wrong, and my brain plays tricks on me, like back when i thought pox walkers had 600 hp
i hate when this happens so much, its frustrating
i wish we had all the info of the changes though, this pisses me off so much
many people play this game on their main with the same build, i’ve got 2500 hours and i don’t even know many of the vet talents name i don’t use, not to mention FS keep messing with names
I mean I don’t think they’re wrong though. Not focusing on personal statistics, but more how much you impact the chance of victory, there is probably no lower skill floor pick than shout Vet. Stay near your team and spam Ult off cooldown, and the chance of success goes up drastically even piloted by a labotomite.
I don’t think anyone is saying it’s going to top damage but it’s hard to beat in the category of crazy easy to have success with.
I will gonna be real here - it’s pretty much impossible to decide and say that some WHOLE archetype is stronger than the other ones because everybody has different levels of Mastery of the archetype.
Also, there are different ways to measure strength, but in this game it’s pretty hard to do that by anything but your subjective “feel”.
While it is hard, it’s possible only if the majority of the community will say that it’s true, and still there will be people who will say that some doo-doo weapon is actually the Best Weapon in the game, well usually it’s implied to be not-doo-doo and actually pretty good if you get used to its flaws, which is every single thing imaginable.
Man, talking about these things SUCKS ASS, it’s frustrating for everyone involved. 
Now, I am gonna talk honestly, I do think that Veteran’s shout that gives you and your team golden toughness is really strong, to the point that I find myself expecting that every single Veteran will be playing with this Ability(this situation reminds me of Scavenger before the nerf), and it is pretty much the majority
Also, CDR on Vet is insane, you pretty much spam this ability like crazy.
And Powersword + Revolver are my Vet’s weapons, I am not really good as Veteran so I play him like my Ogryn, sorry 
Hey
Wanted to toss this out without making a new thread.
Vet shout: base cooldown 1 minute 15 sec, base stagger power flinches elites (boss stagger unchanged because there is no differing levels of stagger for monsters), gold toughness.
3 sub nodes, one of which is a required tax and the sub nodes branch from it (think Zealot’s Chorus).
The tax node is OG stagger, basically what you’re already doing for the same point cost but much longer cooldown.
The first side node is cooldown reduced to 45 seconds but no toughness (or no gold toughness), this way a more aggressive shout costs an extra point.
The second optional node remains a noob trap but gets an increased radius for even more “I’m helping” energy, because I think reviving people at range without clearing any of the enemies will be hilarious. 33% increased cooldown maybe unnecessary, i forget how much time that actually adds to the current 30 second cooldown.
