No. Make it better. 
So when someone publicly offers piano lessons, but you do not want to learn to play the piano…
You can not just move on?
Instead, no piano lessons should be offered to anyone, and the person should instead offer something that is to your personal liking?
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The smoke grenade effectively blocks Flamers by forcing them within arm’s length before they’ll fire. It… also doesn’t stop Snipers, at all. It’s intended to be a hard counter to Scab Stalkers, Scab Shooters, Dreg Shooters, Dreg Gunners, Scab Gunners, Scab Shotgunners, Dreg Shotgunners, Reapers, and a soft counter to Tox-Flamers, standard Flamers, and Trappers.
Conversely, smokes have little to no appreciable effect on Bombers and Snipers, who can and will flush you out of it. Melee enemies are largely if not entirely unaffected by the smoke, which is fine as you’re already countering at least a third of the enemy roster by standing in or behind it; the goal of the grenade is to either force a melee encounter, or to block off distant gun lines so that you can focus on close targets/move through no man’s land.
The micro-stagger is more for giving you more room to throw it down in melee without eating chip damage for it, you shouldn’t be using it as a stagger tool, or as a tool against melee-only enemies at all.
Teammates running past the smoke is either a skill issue (you’ve placed the smoke when or where it wasn’t needed, or they don’t know how to take advantage of it) or it’s a good thing, such as smoking down a hallway to allow the Zealot and Ogryn to close and kill on a pack of 30 gunners with no other cover available. Teammates hanging behind smoke is also a good thing, because you’ve forced the overall engagement area to be that much smaller–there’s less room between your team and the enemy backline, as they’re forced to move through the smoke to see you.
Ideally, though, you smoke your team’s feet in the middle of a mixed melee/shooter horde, and suddenly it’s a mixed melee/yellow melee horde. Just don’t throw more than one if you’re using it this way, because you can only see through smoke that you’re actually standing in.
If you want to talk about changing/buffing smoke, the only QoL change it needs is to stop hiding friendly nameplates. Otherwise, especially with the grenade tinkerer change in P14, it’s already incredibly strong. Even just making it block Sniper LoS would risk making it genuinely overpowered.
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So you would rather have a sub-par product, than an improved product? Bizarre take but I respect it.
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Melee is affected by smoke, it’s just not apparent in normal playstyle.
They can’t target you inside smoke, unless in melee range. (not consistent atm.)
So you got to step away from your team a bit and use infiltrate into smoke. In order to loss all enemies, that targeted you previously, and prevent from targeting you further.
that way you will no enemies around you, which will allow you to do whatever job you need to, killing a special wave, or doing objective, without interruptions. It will also enable “Kill zone” and “Catch a Breath” talents
This kind of playstyle is very fitting for infiltrator, i think.
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I like how people complain about smoke and don’t even know how it works. You don’t have to imagine thing. LOS blocking is enough of a bad thing on its own. Even though there are multiple ways to get around it, if you have will to adapt your playstyle a bit.
That is not at all what i said, or what my comment suggests.
But feel free to build as many strawmen as you like.
“Both buffs are not incredibly powerful, but pretty easy to keep up, when shooting enemies from behind your teammates, while moving through the mission.”
“I use both of these feats.”
“Of course they are not always active, but i still get quite a bit of use out of them.”
“You personally not getting much use out of it, does not mean that nobody gets any use out of it, or that it should be changed entirely.”
This is all from you which points to you being okay with a sub-par talent. Where did I strawman? Clarify your stance, because that is exactly what your comments are suggesting. If I’m wrong I will sincerely apologize.
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I am not fine with bad talents being left in a bad state.
But i do not agree with the idea that these specific talents are bad.
I also did not say that these talents should not be improved under any circumstance.
I said that the premise (it is never active so it is bad) is wrong and therefore not a valid reason for changing the talents.
You could argue that because they are not always active, they should bring a bigger bonus when they are.
Or that because of how small the bonuses are, their uptime could be buffed.
But i do not think that they are generally bad talents because “they are never active on higher difficulties“.
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Nah fam, leave the smoke alone, it’s so much of a skill issue it’s unbelievable. People’s brains just don’t seem to click on smoke, one of the big youtubers should make a tutorial on it or something because it seems to me that the average (Vet) player will never figure it out on their own.
Smoke seems to short-circuit people’s brains because when you use it effectively nothing happens. Literally you are not getting shot at, it reduces the amount of things happening, as opposed to the “lol instagib one ogryn” grenade that’s big, flashy and explody and it makes your brain tingle. Smoke has the opposite effect when you don’t even try to understand it, so most people dismiss it. My proof to that is people usually want to change it to something flashy and more noticable, like straight up doing damage or something dumb like turning everyone invisible.
Smoke is fine as is, you are the problem.
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Ok, I apologize for misunderstanding what exactly your position is on this particular talent.
The hand grenade with a 10% chance is indeed very impractical, and I think it would be a good choice to change it to the following options
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Magic Grenade: 10% chance, throwing a grenade will not consume players’ reserves
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Wartime Reserve: You can receive a charge every 60 seconds, and when there is a charge, you can throw a grenade for free
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Quick Reserve: Each time a grenade is thrown, it will reduce the automatic charging time of the grenade by 10 seconds (60s 10s=50s), which needs to be used in conjunction with another talent
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Cheap Weapon: The maximum carrying capacity of a grenade has been increased by 1, but the grenade thrown by the player has a 10% chance of not exploding and is a dud
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Dangerous Weapon: The maximum carrying capacity of a grenade has been increased by 1, but there is a 10% chance that the grenade thrown by the player will immediately explode in their hands, causing 10% damage to the player themselves
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Mini Grenades: Grenade damage reduced by 50%, but player’s maximum carrying capacity of grenades increased by 3
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Precision Grenades: Grenade damage increased by 50%, but player’s maximum carrying capacity of grenades decreased by 1
That’s a fair point. I believe the best thing to do without entirely reworking these 2 talents would simply be reducing the benefit by half when something is within 8m of you.
There’s just one problem with your reasoning…
Why do I need to do this? When I can kill those things in 1 second as opposed to having to throw grenades to change melee/shooter engagement distances?
It is not “incredibly strong”. It is near actually damn near useless on Heresy and Damnation.
I saw the videos you posted. Maybe it is a skill issue. If so then perhaps I’m misunderstanding something… but the fact that this DOES NOT affect melee swarms and ONLY ranged swarms only serve to prove my point.
Unfortunately the videos you have of “big youtubers” were not playing heresy or damnation. In those difficulties there are always melee units charging at you which makes the grenade basically useless as soon as the smoke clears after a few seconds, the ranged will go right back to shooting you.
“Smoke is fine as is, you are the problem.”
Yeah sure
Usefulness of smoke nade is determined by amount of enemies present at the same time.
If you can kill it right away, kill it.
if you can’t, smoke it.
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You’re absolutely correct. There’s a time and a place–Smoke grenades scale extremely hard with difficulty. They do nothing but slow you down on anything below Damnation, unless used to very aggressively shove into packs of ranged elites without taking return fire, which on those difficulties are so small and anemic that a single frag would have done the same and killed most before you even got there. They become absolute life savers on HI and HISTG. I’ll admit to not taking them into Auric Maelstrom as yet, but I see no reason for their scaling to somehow invert its trend.
When you run into a room that drowns your ult in a golden tide, smoke grenades are the fastest and most effective solution to prevent damage available to you. Doubly so if you’re tied up with melee targets. Which, as you say in another reply, you nearly always will be if you’re running the game at speed.
You can see the difficulty by checking the wounds at the bottom of the screen. If any player has 2 wounds, it’s Damnation.
Also, as of P14 smoke grenades last a whopping 30 seconds base, and 1 minute with grenade tinkerer. For the people in the back: If you get swarmed and drop your volley fire ult while still getting shot at, dropping an un-upgraded smoke will cover your ass until your ult comes all the way back up before factoring in cooldown reduction.
Sorry for the double reply but I’ve good news from the field: In addition to everything I’ve said before, smoke grenades also definitively hard counter Hounds. They will not pounce you if you are standing in the smoke.
Smokes are crap. Shredders wreck rager/executor swarms, can at the very least stagger crunchers, or simply clear a horde so I can have the space to just kill the ranged targets that are causing issues. I don’t have to explain the value of Kraks.
While I don’t doubt there are SOME situations where you can get some good to even great value out of them there are far too few in between, and worst of all I still see snipers shooting through them making them even more annoying to find along with every other special that will now be harder to see that could have been safely dispatched outside of their effective range.
If they make the smokes transparent for team mates, or make looking through the smoke give everything on the other side an outline then I could see it being a truly viable option. People can talk about “skill issues” all they want, but the other 2 grenades don’t even have the possibility of f**cking you over.
TL;DR The opportunity cost is too high for losing Shredders, or Kraks.
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I’d love it if Smoke Grenade was just Smoke Bomb from Vermintide 2. That move of Bardin’s is very useful and quick to use in emergencies.
And I think Twinned Blast should be on a cooldown but guaranteed to happen.
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