Vanguard vs One motion [Polls x 3]

I would like to see what the community think about the replacement of Vanguard by One motion.

Vanguard and One motion - if you did not bother reading patch notes

Vanguard was that:
image
So a sprint efficiency talent
The same exists on zealot, it is called unremitting

One motion is this one:

What do you think about the replacement?

  • Vanguard was better
  • One motion is better
  • Both are good
  • No opinion on this
0 voters

About One Motion, your opinion?

  • One motion is an excellent talent
  • One motion is good, no great but still good
  • One motion is not enough strong to notice it
  • One motion is really bad
  • One motion is just a tax node!
0 voters

About vanguard, your opinion?

  • Vanguard was a tax node
  • Vanguard was bad in my opinion but its replacement is not good either
  • Vanguard should have been moved elsewhere to keep this option
  • Vanguard removal was a terrible idea
0 voters

About one motion: What is the main use for this talent? (precision: this is not about the strength, but about the talent itself)

  • For all weapons
  • For specialist build specifically
  • For long time swap weapons
  • For fast swap weapons
  • It is not good at all
0 voters
2 Likes

I thought 25% swap speed gonna be good but its just only noticeable on heavy gun for me Im not even sure if its just placebo. when I play anything else it become a tax talent.

Vanguard imo is overall better for that talent location. its a good talent to all builds.

1 Like

I really miss this talent.

Tested with the veteran, this change is really impacting builds using stripped down.
And, so impacting the specialist build by a lot.
But one motion bring nothing to this role (branch of the talent tree). The specialist (right part of the talent tree) will never use a helbore or a boltgun. But to see the bonus from one motion, you have to use such long swap weapons.
So, I think that one motion should be put on an other branch (for me the left one - even if, in my opinion marksman has definitively a bad trigger, and this time I tested it to complete the penance).
But Vanguard is really a great talent for specialist. So, at least, it should be put somewhereā€¦

One Motion should be 50% increased swap speed instead of 25%.

Vanguard could have been put somewhere down the right side.


On a side note depending on your weapon choice it can be a pure tax node sadly (eg: Laspistol).

1 Like

I agreeā€¦ however it would negate the problem of heavy guns (helbore, boltgun etc). And more than that, it would be a mandatory talentā€¦ at the end, it would be a talent made for long time swap gunsā€¦ the total contrary of the specialist (but fit well the middle build - the ā€œcommanderā€ (voc-focus))

This shows how this talent does not suit the specialist branch. And I really suspect that Fatshark really wanted to put a talent that would make specialist build better.

just test one motion for helbore yeah its there but very little

Added a poll about the utility of one motion

The sprint cost was never a big factor for me, but as far as tax nodes towards the extra toughness recovery go, it was quite palatable. I did use it on a knife-runner, and the effect was often useful, if never spectacular.
Now itā€™s a bonus that I didnā€™t even find a use for until reading this thread and thinking ā€œoh, right, Helboresā€.
But with Helbores, Iā€™d go either the left or middle path.
Now, Out for Blood is even more so the only reason to pick the right path.

50% increased swap speed would translate into something like 33% reduction (so 2/3 of the base swap speed) which still isnā€™t anything game breaking, but would be felt a bit more on ā€œmidā€ swap speed weapons too.

If it would be something like 100% increased swap speed that might be too much for bolter/helbore (like -0.8 sec?), but as it stand the bonus is just not big enough.

Iā€™m not very worried about it being mandatory we have bunch of stuff that is similarly ā€œmandatoryā€ on one weapon or another if you want to have great output.

I think vanguard should be back in place of one motion

swap speed should just come together with reload speed modifier. I dont know why they separated them. they could just call it ā€˜weapon handling speedā€™ or something

3 Likes

I donā€™t say that one motion is something bad. I am worried that they removed vanguard, today it has cost me several times to go on floor cause of this. With and without is day and night. And I can directly compare with and without on the zealot.
I am not also worried that it would be one of the good talents to take. But as we both said by our vote, the bonus is not enough strong to mean something.
But what I mean is, how it is designed, it fits more the commander build than the specialist one. The idea is interesting for the specialist, and on paper it looks excellent.
But when you confront it with the game reality, it does not match at all.

Also, what I say is that they made really difficult to play stripped down builds.

Swap some mods to sprint efficiency on curios.

I have sprint efficiency on the 3. And I added also it on the ranged weapon.
So bonus is: 3 x15 + 20 = 65%
Vanguard permitted me to up to 85%.
These 20% change everything in gameā€¦ this is the difference between being immune and being dead.
Stripped down works only above 50% stamina.

I see it on the zealot. I have ā€œsame buildā€ (stripped down). On veteran it was ranged orientated, on zealot it is melee orientated. With the last change, it is day and night. Zealot is ten times more secure as I rarely can go under 50% stamina.
This often happens on the veteran however since they removed vanguard.

1 Like

On Veteran you can use Duck n Dive which will be satisfied by Stripped Downā€™s condition. If you were already down there for Onslaught or melee buffs Iā€™d use that, its infinite stamina for when you need to dip through the dive. For general running around I usually hit up both stamina regen delay nodes instead.

But yeah the current value is indeed to small to really matter. Which is why I think they should have baked weapon swap stacks into Weapon Specialist keystone instead imoā€¦have it be 20% with zero stacks, and then like 120% at 10. Similar to executioner activation with max stacks. Thereā€™s a few heavy weapons that have strong crits I would really like to use on this keystone.

Thatā€™s true. Infinite, when someone fire on you. But between 2 fights, when you have to run, and in these situation you run out of stamina too fast.

I totally agree. It is even what I proposed in the thread before the patch.
Especially cause they could up the bonus to something really useful and significative without creating problems with slow swap weapons.

I suggest keep them both in 1 node.

25% swap speed is very niche , and its really worth it for bolter build, maybe even the helbore.

Vanguard is omega Coal and it should not be a talent anywhere.

Ever since the major skill tree rework Iā€™ve felt the Veteran has lost its identity. Part of that is that the identity used to be the specialist killer and now everyone else is better at doing that, which is a good change, but still, without that, the Veteran is now kind of The Generalist. The Jack of All Trades. Basically good at everything but not really the best at anything. The Tanky Ogryn, the Disruptive Psyker, the Really Fast Zealot, and the Veteran, Who Is Also Here I Guess.

Not to say the Veteran is bad or underpowered, just that they donā€™t feel as much like they own the Shooting People gimmick the way they used to. In the before times, their flat 40% extra ammo made a huge difference, but then they buffed the max ammo of a bunch of weapons so everyone else can have plenty, and they made Fully Loaded only 25% instead of 40%, and they tucked it away in the left hand Sharpshooter sub-class side with all the headshot stuff, which I maintain is the worst place for an extra ammo talent, because aiming for headshots is already about using less ammo. Fully Loaded ought to go in the middle with the suppression stuff so the Sergeant sub-class can spray all over the place and not have to worry about hogging the ammo pickups. Same goes for Shock Trooper.

So all that being said, I think One Motion has a place, because Being The Best At Guns should definitely be the thing the Veteranā€™s got that nobody else has. Faster swap speed is part of that, but it needs to be significantly stronger than 25%. That way players can feel the difference when using a ranged weapon on someone else vs being the Veteran. Iā€™d recommend other simple gun mechanics buffs as well, like maybe greater zoom distance, bigger magazine size, faster snap to sights, better accuracy or recoil reduction, maybe lower movement penalty while aiming. Or, hereā€™s an idea, maybe a talent that makes it so using your ability instantly reloads your ranged weapon. It could be called ā€œSustained Fireā€ or something. ahem. Stuff that makes the player feel like Yes, this guy is about gun combat. If I feel like shootings enemies with my gun a lot, I should pick the Veteran.

I donā€™t terribly mind Vanguard not being around anymore even though it was basically fine, because sprinting all over the place should be the Zealotā€™s thing (which is also why I disapprove of them lowering the +10% sprint speed to 5%, would have preferred they got rid of the dodge thing if anything).

I think the trouble FS ran into is that melee fighting is just a huge part of this game, but instead of coming up with better ways for the Veteran to get away from melee enemies and keep out of range, they just made Veterans also basically great at melee, even if you only dip slightly into the right hand side (which I prefer to call the Jungle Fighter rather than Specialist, cuz weā€™ve already got a thing in this game called specialists). Stuff like Camo Expert, or making smoke grenades work like Ranger Bardinā€™s.

The way I would balance them, in rough and simple terms: The Zealot is the best at Melee, and the Veteran is the best at Guns. Zealots are Not That Good at Guns, and Veterans are Not That Good at Melee. They each have a few skills that mitigate this a bit, but a Ranged Build Zealot is still more about Melee than about Guns and still not as good at Guns as a Veteran. Likewise, a Melee Build Veteran is Okay at Melee but still better with Guns, and is still not as good at Melee as a Zealot.

These days I see a lot of Veterans who do just as much melee fighting as the Zealots, and it makes me kinda sad. Especially when they donā€™t shoot the dang specialists coming at us because theyā€™re too busy hacking at trash mobs and Iā€™m left trying to counter snipe with a heavy stubber. It happens so often I stopped bringing anything I canā€™t reliably quick swap to and take a bomber down with because so many Veteran players are too unreliable at using their guns.

1 Like

Agree. However, the keystone is so bad that I refuse to use that.
I have tested it, and a lot. To complete the penance, I ended at starting solos and moving forward crouched the entire mission to kill things and forgive this penance (and this keystone, that is just bad to say the least). To be good, they just need to remove the walking stack removal and put something like all other classes. A refresh when you trigger again the keystone, and a bonus that disappear after several seconds without refresh (one by one or all in one time, that is a choice here). And if needed, they can nerf the bonus a little.
Specialist keystone, this so annoying to have to think to NOT switch to the other weaponā€¦ On this keystone I would say that the bonus should apply for a fixed time once you hit an enemy, and not when you switch to an other weapon. Also, the keystone should integrate one motion with a better bonus (+50%), maybe as a specialization (so under the keystone and put back vanguard where it was). Also the keystone should have less bonus but that would last longer.
Focus looks fine. I donā€™t like it, but it looks fine.

Youā€™re not wrong here. But as you pointed it:

In my opinion, the veteran has become the Private Eye of Darktide (a class from Neocron that was good at everything and excellent in nothing).
So, it should allow every gameplay.

I would like a new class that would have a link with ranged weapons.

It was a game breaker cause of Boltgun.

But I like the ideas you have thrownā€¦ maybe in a new archetype?

Ok, letā€™s say itā€¦ thatā€™s normal. If you donā€™t take into consideration bad keystones, the best talents are melee ones. And you can have 10% critic chances as a start, +10% melee critic rate, +25% finesse bonus (increase weakspot and critic damages, increase also melee speed), +10% melee attack speed, you can get +5% critic chances per dodges with a max of +25%, you can recover 30% stamina when dodging, put 20% debuff brittleness on an enemy, you can even (if you donā€™t pick keystone) get +10% rending, +20% against ogryns and +15% against elite enemiesā€¦
Try this with a duellist sword with riposte and agileā€¦ this is better than a zealot. Especially if you pair this with VoC.
For me, the melee veteran story has begun with the keystones. Keystones ruined my fun as a veteran, and Iā€™ve searched ways to play this class. Cause of them (yes, this is directly linked), I started to explore what is the best out of keystones.
If you donā€™t pick keystones, you end that melee is great. And with a melee build, you still can get high dps for ranged weapons. So, the best you can pick without keystones.

1 Like

IMO it could just have both effects, wouldnā€™t be overpowered.

1 Like