Fatshark, I’ve come to ask about reconsider your opinion on “Vanguard”. I have 6k h in Destiny 2 , 1k Apex and 2k in DT Im pointing it as proof - Im high movement player enjoyer and perk Vanguard is one of the best early perks in vets tree. This video is showcase how much you can stack sprint efficiency (missing 3%) and perk Vanguard gives 16m of free movement on top of that. I’d say stamina (at least for me) is a most important stat in DT, in Vt2 I was blocking around 80% of every match but in DT I barely use it, my movement knowledge and knowledge of enemy’s movement with chuncks of stamina - gives a lot of room to adapt in every situation
Its no just +16m of movement thats like: ~ +10m +1block, +5m + 2block, 7m + 1block +1push and etc, any movement combination you can build inside those -20% sprinting cost
I think this perk is considered as tax or meme just because only a few realize its power and it hard to notice but perk works always because youre moving (sprinting) always . If youre rushing to res your teammate that perk can safe for you a few blocks which can be a difference between - did you res your mate or not. That rule applies to every your movement.
I dont know your opinion and how it doesnt performing but this perk and its early position in tree is perfectly fits with veteran because its all about reposition between veteran and his targets. I have 18 builds for veteran and 10 of them with Vanguard and this number could be more after your merging Relentless with Ult. If youre deep in DT youd notice Vanguard’s usefulness but if youre just a 3h-week-man you dont but it doesnt mean Vanguard is bad.
At least Im asking to not remove it but replace it because, Im very sorry, - Born Leader is trash (if there is any Born Leader defenders would like to see arguments and this is not sarcasm)
25% Weapon Swap Speed does sound more useful than Vanguard
I doubt they will revert the change on the talent tree.
Born Leader sounds like it would be useful if the percentage wasn’t so shitty.
I guess it just needs a buff.
I don’t understand they have a no brain talent that give you instantly full toughness
and then we have Born Leader almost next to it.
your best bet would be that they buff sprint efficiency on curio. and I guess that wont happen until we get a Curio Rework patch.
I do agree that stamina is the most important stat in this game. I have a friend that play vet with +9 stamina curio and he play auric damnation totally fine. my suggestion just drop a curio and add a +3 stamina.
or they could just replace the minor node +25% suppression dealt with Vanguard. what does it even does anyways xD
Born Leader isn’t gonna save anyone from melee but if you have a couple stacks of Confirmed Kill ticking (and you will because it’s darktide) you can make everyone in coherency functionally immune to bullets. I think it’s better than For the Emperor, which is such a nothingburger of a node to me that I don’t understand why everyone takes it so often. 5 seconds is so short and 10% damage is so small it barely ever matters.
You don’t need Vanguard if you’re running Sprint Efficiency curios and are positioning properly. You shouldn’t be trying to revive someone in the middle of a bunch of melee anyways. Sprint-sliding and dodging is far better for stamina management in combat anyways.
You said in the notes that «Vanguard wasn’t performing as we wanted, and it was mostly viewed as a blocker to the talents below it.»
Then I must say that I prefer one point that having to put something on my gun, aka the 20% sprint efficiency (vanguard is exactly that).
On veteran, vanguard + stamina bonus on curio can permits you to run all the time. I would hate that we remove the possibility to have such possibility in the veteran tree as it would mean that the only way would be to transfer that on weapon.
I can put 20% sprint efficiency on a weapon, however I can actually pick vanguard in the veteran tree that is the same.
I can put a +25% against maniac on my weapon… but I can’t in the veteran talent tree (true that I can get good bonus against elite/ogryns/monsters but I can add also perks to my weapons to add to these bonuses).
2. New talent won’t change specialist
I understand that you may want to make the specialist keystone looking better… however, the ones that want to play with keystones have chosen to do it, and the ones that are not convinced by them won’t even with this change.
I tell it, I do not want to switch my weapon all the time. This is not a gameplay I like. Marksman I don’t like either, and even more since I know it is good for autoguns, and focus I don’t like also.
So, you will not convince me to adopt keystones with this change. I will surely use this change for weapons with a big switch time (helbore, boltgun) but for others I doubt it will change anything. They are fast to switch to them, and -25% won’t be noticeable at all.
And I doubt players will pick a boltgun or an helbore with specialist keystone… I really doubt about that.
So like marksman that was done for the precision weapons and seems better with fast firing rate weapons, so a total failure… this talent won’t benefit really for specialists as with this keystone you will take fast switch weapons. So again it may be a failure.
If I don’t use weapon specialist it is not cause the time to switch between weapons is too long… no it is cause you HAVE to switch all the time to get the bonus from the keystone. And, as I say, I don’t adhere to such gameplay. So, this talent won’t change anything, at least for me.
I’m here to defend Born leader.
Removing this talent will be net negative for any support build based on VoC.
I’m not 100% sure it works this way, but when I was using it, one shout could bring teammate with 0% toughness to gold (maybe with a bit more swinging). It’s also helpful If someone overzealous gets himself in a sticky situation, you can’t get to them but they are In VoC range (I know, VoC will usually deal with melee enemies, but if the guy is under fire it helps a lot).
At least I was sure thats what was going on:
I’m mostly playing with “For the Emperor!” instead of Born-leader, but I change it from time to time. I wish I’ve had one more point to have it on always with this build.
I’ll happily trade the -20% sprint cost to swap speed on 90% on my builds. On the remaining 10% I guess I’ll just swap sprint efficiency on my curio.
My problem is that +25% swap speed is kinda small (it’s a -20% reduction), it should be +50% to make it a more impactful effect (which would make it a ~33% reduction).
That’s also a problem I pointed.
+25% will have an impact on weapons that have a big swap time. So helbore, boltgun mainly. But on others… it won’t be noticeable.
And I suspect they wanted to make specialist more appealing. However, you will never take a boltgun for specialist keystones.
That’s why I suggest that they let it somewhere as an option.
Agile engagement is a problem. Why this talent has the same trigger than the specialist keystone? Put the new talent here. And if needed, buff the keystone itself. (in bold to avoid over reactions)
I don’t get why we have 1 talent and 1 keystone with same trigger.
Look at where the node is and how Vet tree is constructed. You don’t have to go right for Specialist at the beginning, on the other hand a lot of setups would want either Out for Blood, Reload Speed or both.
Swap speed would be useful for:
Boltgun builds that definetly want Tactical Reload.
Autogun builds that can really use swap speed and Out for Blood (also tactical reload).
It can be a good 1 point pickup for Helbore builds.
Non of these want to go for Specialist really with or without swap speed, so having it at the beginning is a better option. Although again, should be +50% increased swap speed.
Also, they could just put agile engagement as an option in the keystone itself, and put vanguard as a replacement, if they don’t want to buff it without 1 more spent point.
hmmm… how to say that.
I never take this talent, and for a melee build it would be a bad choice as it would force you to use all the time your ranged weapon.
Last time I posted a scoreboard to show that a melee veteran is viable (and where i recorded more melee damages than the zealot), I had not picked it.
Really, agile engagement is good with specialist keystone.
I will agree with you, if they would go for agile engagement at the bottom, that it would impact players that prefer a damage bonus even if it is won’t proc all the time rather than no damage bonus at all.
Not if their intention is boosting the specialist keystone.
Specialist relies on swapping constantly. I really think they want to put this talent to enhance the specialist build.
However, as I pointed, and that points also @Nish, 25% is not enough for the weapons you use with this keystone. It will be good for long time swapping guns (helbore, boltgun mainly).
So, if their intention is what I suspect, my opinion is that it won’t fulfill the goal.
And also, that removing vanguard won’t help with fast gameplays, something really suited for specialist keystone.
Nobody is using weapon speacialist with these weapons anyway, so I doubt anything will be changed really. Weapon swap speed is more useful you go left tree, especially since ES will now won’t deactivate when switchin to melee.
Reduced sprint cost is useful for specialist, I agree.
They could have just merged Catch a Breath and Killzone instead of buffing them (they are basically useless in aurics) and put the new One Motion where Killzone is. That would have been a good idea too.
BTW I don’t think vanguard is that big of a loss. I value it more that we finally have a swap speed node at an easy to reach place on the Vet tree. It was really missing that. If anything, Vanguard should be put in a more “special” place if reintroduced.