Un-nerf health on cleave 2020

If you mean cleave,… then it wasn’t really, temp on crit was solid, temp on kill was solid, just temp on stagger kind sucked on most weapons. So … they could just buff up a little the temp on stagger for time being and let it be. Instead of this abomination of tweak.

Halberd is great, just saying that you have no option to actually generate temp HP with it on FK. On Merc you just take temp on kill, which actually works.


What? FK have stagger temp and he even have tallent for bigger stagger, he dont have any problem with thp actually.

Stagger thp is 2nd best thp talent right now

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Ah, you should give firesword another chance. Granted, I wouldn’t use it without famished flames (bw) or enfeebling flames (uc), but stagger and control is that weapons whole schtick! Don’t think pert meant normal flail since it’s mostly bad and on Salty, who doesn’t have thp on stagger (ty FS, :heart: u).

But, I also agree, 1h axes shouldn’t be able to regen health using cleave talents, which it could in 1.6. The shortlist of characters who benefited from that over other means lies squarely with Ranger Veteran, as everyone else was incentivized to use other talent/weapon combos.


Agree from me: it’s so bad it’s not worth taking ever I don’t think. Just make it at least good enough so WE can choose which talent to take

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Taking extra talent just to get a little better temp HP generation is bad pick. I am not really getting any relevant temp HP with stagger and Halberd.

I can do like 20 hp or something, from doing the whole horde and pushing them if I got stamina, intentionally to get HP (that is actually what gives me most temp HP)… that is terrible in my view.

Yea but I need to kill stuff not push it around, and if you want to push it around you just take FK and you can push the whole Helmgart around forever.

I mean who cares (when there is a long list of huge issues, this wasn’t priority), I played nearly everything except for Slayer (so not sure what was the deal with dual axes) quite a bit and the temp HP was prolly crazy only on Zealot, rest was somewhat okish.

Now… now it’s just mess and some classes are pretty screwed. While others perform kinda same as before.

Well, as far as Slayer and Zealot (and others) go, thp on kill was the meta before and the meta still regardless of weapon choice (except maybe 2h sword, which no one used).

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2h sword works great on zealot (on legend on cata its as bad as it always was :D) Its lotsa fun but mostly because zealot buffs counter weakness of that weapon

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I would love for the nerfs to be straight up reverted. It was the most generally useful talent, but it wasn’t OP or anything. On Kill was competitive with it. Stagger wasn’t taken because the design of it sucked ass, still does, you don’t get THP if you kill the enemy with your staggering blow.

On Hit worked well with fast weapons because they hit more often, and with large weapons because they hit more dudes. It was RELIABLE and easy to make use of, it wasn’t overpowered. That’s why it was popular, because other options were less reliable.

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On kill wasn’t competetive on it at all even on zealot it was better to take cleave with axe than on kill


It actually depended on situation. Which is another reason why this change was major fu*kup.

Before you could do cleave in normal run and it would be decent… and if you played Onslaught or just deed with Vanguard or something with more elites you could do onKill temp and it would provide better overall performance.


It’s the same problem I complained about with the new FK talent: power on stagger… which sucks on most weapons because killing blows do not count as stagger, so if you kill SV with like Executioner you won’t get the buff, even tho you staggered him to death… because kill calcualtion somehow doesn’t count stagger.

All this stuff needs fixing first… instead of breaking core mechanic like temp hp…


Even on vanguard cleave did a great job, but only then kill was maybe option considering to take.

Its need rebalance for sure but not to status that was braindead pick because it was better in every way than rest options


Temp-HP on Cleave was enough to keep you at maximum temporary health at all times on any character. Having played all-too-much Kerillian w/ spear and Kruber with executioner, I can tell you that the only thing that took me away from full-health on Legend was a special or catching an overhead attack to the face.

That’s absolutely OP. THP should never be able to comprise 80% of your healthbar unless you make a point to take drawbacks in the damage output department (shields, fire-sword).

@flisker I don’t deny that this is sort-of unfortunate for the talent, but it’s very reasonable that it doesn’t calculate it (and I don’t think the characters that take it really need that specific instance of stagger-HP; they can generate so much more with a push, I don’t know why they would need to generate it on a Storm-Vermin kill).

Why should the game calculate stagger-change and then damage? If damage is calculated first we don’t need to go on to do the other calculations (also, calculating stagger first means that death animations would look ridiculous because their stagger-state and animations would change before they were considered dead, even if it’s only for a frame).

However, you are dead-on either way: other stuff needs fixing first. Temp-HP doesn’t really need messing around with until other things are resolved (but I think that’s why the title of the thread says 2020 and not 2019).

Temp-HP on Cleave was enough to keep you at maximum temporary health at all times on any character. Having played all-too-much Kerillian w/ spear and Kruber with executioner, I can tell you that the only thing that took me away from full-health on Legend was a special or catching an overhead attack to the face.

Bull. … If you were at full temp health at all times it was because you weren’t taking damage. Any Talent with that level of skill will keep you topped off. Temp HP on Cleave was NOT Overpowered, it was just the most reliable in general circumstances. You were the one who was overpowered, not the talent.

I would occassionally see players who were reliably at full white HP, but MOST of the playerbase even on legend was taking damage and had actual health missing.

Assassin is only good for skilled players who can get reliable headshots (less than 10% of the playerbase), Stagger was just utter garbage because you would often kill enemies rather than stagger them. And most careers don’t have Both Cleave and Kill options, which have reliable easy to meet conditions. So almost everyone took Cleave by default, because the conditions for meeting it could be done by anyone.

Now things have simply done a 180 flip. Cleave is utterly useless, Stagger is functional (and actually good with select weapons), Assassin is still only for skilled players, and Kill is the ONLY reliable THP skill for most players.


It was overpowered you can’t deny it, it had way more gain per kill than anything

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I agree that cleave is utterly useless (is it still bugged?) at this point, but it was ridiculous before… again, you are 100% correct that the table has been flipped around. I’d disagree about Kill being the only reliable one, but I’d agree that it’s certainly a front-runner for a lot of folks.

Well, no, I’d take a hit to the face, swing twice and be back at max, then take another hit to the face. At 40% green-HP, I’d finish off every horde at the same amount (or a bit more due to my love of Waystalker). I’d very often finish every map with most damage taken (which is because, as far as Legend players go, I’m a bad Legend player).

Now this isn’t to say that the talent wasn’t working exactly as intended and it isn’t to say that it didn’t help a lot of players function more fully (myself included), but it was certainly vastly superior per horde/boss/monster than any other talent.

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It was overpowered you can’t deny it, it had way more gain per kill than anything

I can deny it, because I disagree.

Overpowered is a subjective evaluation. I believe it was perfectly reasonable, good but not overpowered. What I find much more likely is that your personal skill was such that you felt overpowered, in which case you probably could have made any talent work.

I did not feel overpowered by Temp HP on Cleave, I still took damage, and could usually fill up on hordes, but sometimes took more damage than it was worth. On Kill was generally inferior vs hordes because ratmen gave you very little HP, but it was good for elites and specials. Just because something is Good and Popular doesn’t make it overpowered.

I have to agree with @Perteks here. At some point, I used to be able to use On Cleave even on the lowest-cleave weapons, namely the 1-h Axes, to hold my own - something I didn’t feel was possible with the other THP Talents. If a weapon that’s not designed to use the Talent at all performs better (or at least feels like it) with that Talent than others, I think the Talent is overly strong.

It’s true that nerfing On Cleave went too far in the other direction, though. With the most suitable weapons (and possibly using Mercenary, too, who can get a bit more use of it), I feel I can barely make the Talent work - and yet gain more advantage by using On Kill, or get roughly equal results with On Stagger. The balance lies somewhere in between still, and the other Talents need a look too - in which direction depends on what level FS wants the prominence of THP to be.


The worst part is that they nerfed THP gain across the board, and then shafted cleave so hard it’s literally useless now. So they double nerfed it without even thinking.

Imo everything should be put on the level of THP on kill, I think it’s in a really good spot.

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On vanguard, on kill was way better if you could kill the elites, it wasn’t “maybe option”.

Krub with Exec was best class and weapon for cleave temp hp so of course it worked rly well.

Same way, now if you take shield and stagger you get massive temp on bashing. But Krub with exec is at least fun, bashing crap for unlimited temp HP gen is not.

Of course its not reasonable, it’s mistake and they don’t know how to fix it fast, which is also ridiculous…

I talked about this with FS and they know about it, but it’s not priority now, in terms of fixing it.

As for pushing , ye pushing works better, but again it’s a mistake where you get stupid playstyle which forces you to push stuff like idiot when you don’t need to… because the way it should work is broken.

It has nothing to do with animations, it should just be able to add temp HP for the amount of stagger that has been done to the enemy, no matter if he died on that hit or not. Otherwise you go thru level one shot stuff and get no temp hp.

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