Trappers too OP

I think that was the original idea about disabler-type enemies back in L4D and it did work that way in Vermintide as well., but I don’t think you can say the same about Darktide. On higher difficulties even “soft” disablers such as Chaos Spawn and Mutant will often lead to death if caught due to Crushers/Flamers etc. still being able to hit you and often doing so - whether it’s because they were going for someone else and you were in the AoE or just because the the minimum threat rule bugged out.

Trapper is the most threatening one since it’s usually instant death, thanks to its pull mechanic. If you were trapped from behind an elite mob - especially Bulwarks/Crushers - is usually instant death if your team doesn’t have immediate hard CC to immediately deploy. And even if they do, Trappers will at times pull you from ~15-20m and then even hard CC won’t save you since you’ll be simply out of range.

The problem is obfuscated by the prevalence of hard CC currently in the game, between the abhorrent Voice of Command, Shredder Grenade spam, Smite and the like. But those things are just a band-aid fix that cannot be relied on as they won’t always come into play. On top of that, such design encourages reliance on crutches as opposed to skill expression through positioning and dodge dancing.

In order to determine whether enemy is fair or not one should consider a scenario where only the core tools are available as those are the only ones you can rely on in all situations (or almost always) - so melee, ranged, dodges, slides etc. but without Blitzes (except for Psyker, rock and knives), Abilities or even teammates since clutching, even if understandably more difficult, should also be a conideration.

Trapper fails this test miserably. Scenarios where you’re getting trapped from behind a Monstrosity, a wall of Bulwarks or just forced to choose between dodging one of two Trappers are absolutely not fair. On top of that the only reliable sound cue is the one that goes off when net is being fired (as its steps and cackling are often glitched or just inaudible in all the chaos), and unlike a Pox Hound you need to dodge it - meaning if you just got yourself into a situation where you cannot dodge in the direction that is required because you didn’t anticipate trapper coming and then hear the net, you were not given a fair warning for what is an instant death attack.
Notice the difference between Trapper and the Pox Hound here, as Pox Hound can be avoided in such a situation since pushes can save you - and that’s on top of many more restrictions placed on the Pox Hound which make it an entirely fair disabler.

True, but there should be a way to get out of the net without having to walk up to your teammate. Mashing spacebar wouldn’t make it trivial since if it took long enough (like getting frozen in DRG for example) you’d be dead by the time you’re finished anyway so it would only work if the cosat is clear. But admittedly I don’t like that solution and would simply prefer for the net to dissolve automatically shortly after Trapper is dead, so that it’s still a hard disabler (meaning you can’t free yourself on your own) but teammates can save you in a physically unreachable spot (jumped from a drop, far away but without LoS and such).

Side note about Pox Hound

I think Pox Hound should do more damage, like Gutter Runner from Vermintide. But that’s a separate topic.

EDIT: didn’t see your edits until I was done typing so included a bit more now.

The obvious solution here is tweaking that, not stopping the disabler from disabling tho.
I’m not saying things are perfect but this particular approach to disabler balance (just make them no longer actually disable you) is anti co-op, makes them harmless and makes them boring.

For what it’s worth I think it’d probably be a good change if your body had collision while netted and didn’t get swallowed up by a stack of elites. Making trappers no longer shoot through elites would probably be a bit too much though, they need that to be threatening and minus weird geometry issues, sometimes sound issues and sometimes targetting a teammate behind you causing weird timing and no sound cue, it’s fine and perfectly fair. The solution to those problems is fixing them, rather than making the entire special harmless.

Agree on the pox hound tho they’re an example of a joke disabler that gets removed by literally everything. However no doubt you’d have people complaining about this too because dogs can be jank sometimes. The obvious solution here also should be reducing the jank rather than keeping the dog harmless.
IMO in a perfect world the trapper would bag you up (even says it) and drag you around to hang you up in a corner somewhere. Worked pretty well in VT2

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I don’t think I have proposed for them not to disable in the first place anywhere. Care to point out which part of my post made you think that is the case?

I’m not sure which part of my post made you think it’d be “harmless”, but if that’s the part about net dissolving upon Trapper’s death then it’s a gross overestimation to the point of being hysterical. Even as little as 2-3 seconds of being disabled is extremely threatening no matter what disabler catches you, but in case of Trapper specifically even if the net was immediately removed after ~5s of landing under its feet without any interaction needed at all it would still be an extremely threatening enemy simply because of the ability to pull you into crowds, flames and daemonhosts, sometimes all at once.
To be more specific and make sure we didn’t just misunderstand each other, IMO the problems that need to be addressed regarding the Trapper are as follows:

  • Pulling players through enemies - whether they’d be prohibited from shooting through enemies or the players would simply collide with them as usual are both good solutions
  • Inability to free a teammate remotely - IMO best thing here would be net dissolution upon Trapper’s death. Don’t like the idea of QTE but it would also address this issue
  • Ignoring iframes - you need to avoid the net physically, so you can’t eg. slide under it and dodging into the net also causes you to be disabled. Dodging should always work, as for sliding I’m not sure but I’d like it to be viable at least when running straight at the Trapper

If those three issues were addressed, then aside from jank or sound issues Trapper would be entirely fair.

IMO it’s only a joke because of the jank. As mentioned before I wouldn’t mind if it was more punishing once you get disabled by it by eg. dealing damage much faster or whatnot and being harder to pull off without player intervention (like ignoring flames or inflicting serious damage if knocked off by mutant/boss etc.), but aside from that and the jank it is a fair enemy that’s still very threatening on higher difficulties - everything that immobilizes you for any amount of time is a serious threat in this game.

Agreed. Though I’d like all disablers to release you when killed, even if there would be a slight delay for that to happen. There’s a reason that was done back in Vermintide and all of its disablers (including Blightstormers) were fair while still providing a challenge… well, aside from the occasional Assassin jank but jank doesn’t really count as a core design issue.

that’s something i wanted in DT too
they should rework the trapper to be similar to the packmaster
where it can drag people away once netted.

the fact it nets people and most of the time stands there just to be killed, is just meh
because they won’t even be able to shoot another net again and will just stand there

when people get netted, it is also very easy to instantly free them

when the game wasn’t even out, i saw some teasers/first gameplays
and i was very disappointed they made the trapper like that, because was a huge downgrade

maybe some things can change, just to think about of flamers that didn’t explode when canister was hit, or when dreg gunners were just shooting without moving. maybe future changes can still happen, and we may see a new trapper ai rework

I would like a dreg trapper doing that… slower, but big threat

I like trappers exactly how they are now. IMHO.

Just don’t spawn 3 at same time please.

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they are not a problem even if in 10+ though

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Tbh, trappers are THE enemy that ruin a large part of my solo runs… but that’s not because of trappers… but because of bots trying to kill a crusher with a catachan sword…

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if you are doing solos, you are supposed to solo everything (?)
because bots are useless, even though sometimes better than some human players

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Hard truth.

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They are absolutely not
The problem is their weapons… the fact we cannot pick our bots is the only problem.
But they are not perfect also…

And no… in a “solo” you’re not supposed to do everything alone. In most missions if no bot protect you you cannot complete it.
True solo is surely possible but I am not really interested in that. With dogs and trappers I am sure that it would be just frustration + trying to complete hacking objectives etc.

By solo, we point the game without any other human. Tbh, bots are often good enough. They can deliver you or shoot this dog. But they will, at 3, deal 25% of the total damages.
And if you make a mistake and there is a crusher, the bot will consider that the crusher is an heavy threat (correct) and will try to attack it (with no effet) before trying to revive you (something that won’t happen). Sometimes the bot will try, and the crusher will stop the move :rofl: with a subtle and delicate… enormous stone cudgel blow!

yup sure

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