Too Many Ways to Recover Ammunition

disclaimer - The issues i’m addressing were observed playing on legend. I realize other difficulties may not have the same issues.

First off, I love the uniqueness between classes, and I don’t want every career to play the same. That said, the disparity between ranged focused and melee focused classes has become tedious. Ranged weapons are more powerful and safer to use then melee weapons, as they should be. But they should also be balanced by a limited ammunition supply. Unfortunately the number of talents and weapon traits that regenerate ammunition is such that certain careers (bounty hunter, waystalker, ranger vet) never have any reason to not use their ranged weapons.

This is frustrating, as melee focused careers are by no means under powered, they just often never have a chance to fight, as hoards and Elites are so easily destroyed at range. Not only can this be boring for the players that don’t need to do anything, it is also teaching new players bad habits. When patches invariably come, I worry that the players who learned the game without needing to manage ammunition, or switch frequently between melee and ranged, will be annoyed at removal of the “ranged” classes, when the reality is Vermintide was never meant to be played with only ranged or only melee weapons.

Ideally i’d like to see the weapon trait “ammunition recovered on critical hits” removed and replaced with an increase to damage on crit or rate of fire on crit. Career talents; waystalker ult augment, bounty hunters free ammo with blessed shots, and Bardin’s survivalist ammunition, made slightly less cost effective, but with more base ammunition across the board. Ranged focused classes should be able to fire freely against high value targets, and moderately throughout hoards without worrying too much about ammo. However, as things stand now for these careers, ammunition is functionally unlimited.

P.S. Sienna is her own giant can of worms, and has been discussed elsewhere. Not ignoring her :smiley:

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This is frustrating, as melee focused careers are by no means under powered, they just often never have a chance to fight, as hoards and Elites are so easily destroyed at range.

What? tanks are prefered over melee…

Sorry, not sure I understand what you mean.

considering Scavenger and haste were things in vermintide 1… I just… what…

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That ppl rather play tank than melee dps, the apparently absolutely fine and balanced melee dps that needs no buff.

Scavenger was a chance based proc. Waywatcher level 25 augment, Bounty Hunter’s level 15 augment, and Ranger Vets ammunition drops are all guaranteed, and they stack on top of weapon traits that give back ammo on head shots or critical hits. Either would be fine, similar to VT1, but both creates a problem.

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Yeah it was proc based but it didnt grant 1 shot back, it granted you as much as ranger ammo bag per kill which due to homing and trueflight meant 2-3 kills per ammo used.
Now throw in haste which given you freeshots for 7s on proc and could proc during its duration and still proc scavenger.
Oh haste could also proc on melee.

Sure, but still less overall then we have now. You would still run out of ammunition, even with scavenger at 15% chance. I have both Kerillian and Salty at level 30, and never run out of ammo while playing them, unless my aim is awful :wink:

I wouldnt and i used 26 shots trueflight bow…i maybe would if there was 0 ammo boxes on map.

Remember pistols? now they have 20 shots base, back then they had 56 with 30% ammo trait it was 73 shots giving us 3 shots back per scavenger proc, you could pop haste and keep it up through entire horde regenerating your entire ammo.

fully agree but your going to have a hard time here there’s a small but very vocal group that think if they keep saying its ok as it is the devs wont change it.
im not sure limiting the ammo lower is a the best way i prefer trying to limit its use by making it more of a skill to use it well , friendly fire was my idea i’ve discussed before.
but i agree the current state where every single game has a pyro and a waystalker and neither of them ever need to get their melee weapons out is a bit wacko.

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could also proc scavenger on melee if for some reason you ran out as well, AND there was also the guaranteed ammo boxes in some parts of the maps as well. I’ve seen kerillian with swift bow use ranged for most of the map in V1.

Scavenger capped at 25% IIRC, 15% was on the low end. I’m gonna have to go look now… might have been 20% flat… either way…

10-24% to recover 5% of ammo, swift bow had 100 shots, 130 with trait.
That gives us 6 shots per proc.
Assuming 1 kill per hit you have 47%-81% chance of getting your ammo back during these 6 shots.

Also 3-7% chance per hit to proc haste for 5s, with swift bow and easily attainable 2 shots per second, assuming you wont miss, you had 26-52% chance that it would proc during these 5s and 65-94% chance of proccing scavenger at least once during that time.
With 3 shots per second these numbers change to 47-77% chance to maintain haste and 80-98% to proc scavenger at least once.

Instead of arguing Scav vs ammo recovery in game 2, maybe we could agree that both are slightly problematic.

or… you know… intentional since the haste not consuming ammo was a buff added much later after release…

would also like to point out that those traits could be obtained on every hero… just like every ranged weapon in VT2 can get ammo back on headshot or crit… giving everyone a lot more ammo mileage.

Well i dont agree that its problematic in the slightest.

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I guess we just disagree fundamentally about what type of game we want this to be. I’ve played countless first person shooters already, I don’t need another. Look at the complexity and depth of the melee combat vs the ranged combat in Vermintide. If you could only have one, which do you think you’d get bored of first? The unique, brutal, challenging yet accessible melee combat? Or another first person shooter? Ideally we’d have both in a balance that is both challenging and fun. But that’s not where things stand now.

Think of Diablo 3, an endless power trip where players grind through hoards of impotent enemies, to get better loot, so they could grind through hoards of impotent enemies, to get better loot. There was no endgame because there was never any real challenge or skill involved. Just enemies that you either could or couldn’t kill with your current gear by clicking on them.

I don’t believe that’s what any of us want out of Vermintide.

It’s more to do with certain weapon design and capacity. Some pierce far too many enemies.

If say arrows only went through 1 target max, the game would change alot.

It is by far the most arrogant possible thing for someone to say this game is too easy - especially on Legend - and single out a communally biased reason for it, not to mention the most ignorant one. There are many many issues plaguing the unpolished Vermintide 2 and the total power of Ranged is not why this game is in a bad way right now.

Chaos enemies skating and gliding around when they attack, bosses and lords not taking damage from many attacks, the inconsistency of pushing even in the melee weapon’s angle, the sheer impossibility to avoid some attacks and the uselessness of dodging, your own melee swings often whiffing through many enemies, and the absolute state of class balance to name a few. Bounty Hunter and Huntsman have had their actives shot down to nothing. Melee is in a bad state. Champion and Legend outright require these meta/exploitative builds to survive due to other facts like specials spawning in on top of players, the sheer quantity of them, the magnitude of hordes on Champ and Legend…

Practically everyone beating Champion and especially Legend is brute forcing it using these safe strategies because they’re the only things that reliably work in winning. Complaining that they aren’t using melee (which is also ignorant because Bounty Hunter is the most balanced ranged class as is since he’s forced to mix) is ignoring that melee is way too dangerous. The running attacks and the skating, the shields, etc, you’ve got too much stacked against you in melee if you aren’t one of the select few good melee characters. Even if you’re host, it’s hard enough to deal with it all.

Currently, in a game ostensibly about avoiding damage such precaution is near impossible at a fundamental level. Instead of being yet another person to comment about this or that being too easy and wanting something changed so dramatically, you should learn the rest of the game and its core functions and get your house in order before criticizing something that can produce global consequences.

Think long and hard about what would happen if penetration was taken out of every weapon. I can see it happening on the Swiftbow because it’s way too good right now (and the hagbane’s AoE crowd control niche is again whited out) but there’d be no fun to range and everyone would be pigeonholed into playing the game in a very sterile manner.

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Thats the thing, if you think that ppl using their ranged weapons on chaff is too much then what can i say, i dont agree that ranged should be that thing which you use against specials.

Ill say more, chaff is chaff, if you manage to shoehorn them into bottleneck theyll die just as easily with you clicking left mouse button on melee or ranged.
Most of the time on legend and champion i see ppl doing their opening salvo then switching to melee because enemy got close and ranged have no protection against enemy magnetism.

Ranged classes sacrifice buffs to melee dmg(which currently are just sad) or damage reduction to get steady supply of ammo.

Both playstyles should remain viable instead of making one the official one to play and shoehorning other one to deal with certain enemies.

Now you mention diablo 3, the game which understood that ranged is safer to play than melee and given melee easily accesible cc and 30% dmg reduction, because they have to go balls deep.
Funnily enough diablo 3 got greater rifts leaderboards with current top being 114 where you will be oneshot by anything that touches you and top class there is melee with ranged classes overall pulling worse
https://www.diabloprogress.com/

Only class in vt2 i feel is being rewarded for going in melee is ironbreaker.

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