Idea to make melee more viable versus range

I think an easy fix to make melee more valuable vs range is to move Scrounger to melee weapons instead of ranged.
Make it more like it was in V1. Now BH and WS just have to spam ranged attack to keep ammo up, if it was changed to melee it would force them to use melee to replenish ammo, it would make a lot more sense.

Also make it random on attacks, don’t have 100% arrows on crits because it would just make players use fast weapons with high crit to get all arrows back in a very short amount of time.

Stupid idea? Maybe, maybe not. I, as a Kerillian player, think this would balance range and force ranged classes to use more melee.

Or don’t… I don’t know, I’m not your mom.

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Scrounger on melee is a kinda good idea, but we would need more trait for weapons before that happen imo.

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Sure, I’m all game for that, but having scrounger on ranged weapons is a weird decission to start with isn’t it?

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Scrounger on ranged felt like a horrible idea from day 1. Or even beta.

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wew lad. Scrounger on Dual Daggers? Full ammo in less than 5 seconds, even if you lower the %. And cleave weapons would be insane. Then they will just drop back and spam ranged again. You’re not going to solve anything with this xD And to be fair, the highest DPS builds don’t use scrounger anyway. BH uses hunter, hagbane elf uses barrage. Most handgun users run ammo on headshot, not scrounger… So all this is going to do, is give ranged an even better way to get ammo and leave the highest DPS traits on their ranged weapons.

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How about removing scrounger completely. Ammo crates would be the only place to restock. Range spam is no longer a problem as arrows/bullets is a somewhat rare comodity that will be used when needed and not all the time just bcs.

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Most range have a way of keeping ammo up 24/7. RV with ammo bags, WS with regen and ULT, BH with melee kill to proc passive. Even the shade can proc ammo with back stabs

Which is why I said, most “good” players won’t user scrounger anyway. They’ll go for more DPS.

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Yeah, was thinking the same thing. Maybe just remove some types of ammo regeneration entirely (tweak ammo pools if needed).

But part of me thinks this amount of ammo generation is what they want for the game, so if we were to just keep it how do you make melee stronger?

Maybe remove/tweak some anti-melee mechanics, add an anti-ranged boss, make CW more resistant to ranged attacks (outside of ults/ult effects), drop the SV ranged one-shot breakpoints on crossbow, etc.

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Simply NO ONE ranged weapon should penetrate enemies.

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I forgot about ammo regen.
My solution is to completely remove any form of ammo regen regardless of headshots, crits etc. It makes no sense at all that anyone would magically receive an arrow in their quiver just because they hit a target real hard. What the hell kind of magic is that and why then not just make a quiver with unlimited ammo when youre at it. All in or not at all.

In any real fight/battle the front line and the brute and strength of an army has and always will be the foot soldiers. Range is a support class that helps out from behind when needed. Not the other way around as it now.

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Well removing all ammo regen and giving ranged careers like 300% ammo would be nice.

I also support:
Giving ranged careers talents that let them (and them alone) regenerate ammo in melee or like rv (just not from ranged or camping) and remove all their current ammo regen talents and scrounger.

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Thats’s why it needs to be balanced, do you even read?

Clam down lad. I was simply point out, that the suggestion won’t actually fix anything. I have no issue with ammo regen being removed and so on. The talents need an overhaul then though… For example, no one takes team HP regen on elf cause it’s useless. It only heals up to 50% HP and that’s not enough to survive a hit in legend. Doing something as simple as increasing the HP regen to 70% on WS would have people not taking ammo regen xD

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This. I use scrounger on… I think three builds: Huntsman longbow (where it is actually quite fine since it relies on landing headshots to get your bonus crits going), on handguns I use with Merc (Merc has very high crits, realistically, you won’t land headshots on every shot, handgun kills SV with bodyshots anyway and can easily be geared towards killing all specials with bodyshots, so going for headshots is unnecessary overkill damage. You will eventually run out of ammo, but for keeping your ammo count high when shooting the occasional special or SV, it is more than enough to let you last until the next ammo crate) and on RV graker for the occasional buttstroke ammoregen.
On everything else, it is usually not worth it or simply a waste. WS has good ammo regen anyway and even with scrounger, you will eventually run out. You will melee often enough and you don’t rely on your ranged weapon. BH is more effective when going for Hunter and switching melee and ranged often. RV doesn’t have good crits and can only really benefit from it on graker. With extra ammo, ammo is not an issue on handgun. Crossbow is efficient enough with regular drops. Sienna laughs at the idea of ammo, anyhow.
Scrounger is not the source of this alleged issue, it would be simply a symptom. I don’t think moving it to melee would help, as it would prevent you from using something on your melee weapon that actually enhanced… well, your melee.
You could only tackle this supposed problem by dabbling with the ranged carreers. Admittedly, they backed themselves into a corner with those. You can’t take away their ammo regen without completely devaluing the entire carreer because most don’t have much to support their melee viability or survivability. I think debating about this issue has become kinda moot, since without massive changes to some very core design choices, we won’t see much alleviation on this. And while I am perfectly happy with how everything works now, by and large, and you could say I am rather biased and would advocate against such changes, I think if everyone’s being completely honest, the chances of such radical changes happening after such a long time are rather slim.

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I think that’s kind of the problem with cdr-builds as well.

I don’t claim to know da way but:

  • Make it only restore 2% like stated and not 2s like in reality. (the % might be buffed then)
  • I think the 10% bonus for dual wield is not deserved these weapons aren’t weak without it.
  • Multiple procs now I don’t know weapons are (should) balanced around being slow but high cleave or fast and a low one and other things like ap. Limiting it to one will favor things like daggers so maybe a strength reduction of the trait would be right just like the dmg decreases.

Similar things would be needed if Scrounger were moved to melee in some way.

EDIT: This wasn’t a problem in V1 as the proc chance was fix (no crit builds), adjusted for the specific weapon and rolled for every enemy you hit separately. In comparison to the new crit mechanics the V2 traits follow.

Exactly, you have to balance it but it would make it way, Way more viable to balance in between ranged and melee than now.
BH with scrounger will destroy everyone in damage, hunter is garbage in comparission because scrounger makes him never having to change weapon. He never runs out of ammo, even a waystalker with scrounger and swiftbow can run out of ammo, but BH? No, it’s not possible with scrounger.

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The issue isnt that kirillian has ammo regen or scounger. The issue is that everybody runs around shooting left and right
Each class should be a specialist at something. not a generalist. And I know they sort of are, but not near enough. Kirrilian and huntsman should be the only 2 range specialists. Huntsman for bosses and top tier elites and kerrilian for hordes and whatever.
The rest of the classes should be melee and melee support focused with extremely limited range capabilites.

Waystalker main here. I like this idea, however in unison with such a change, we also need more compelling ranged traits then to replace it with. Only the traits that recover ammo or reduce heat on headshot/crit are really worthwhile, the rest is just too weak and situational.

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Agreed.

This becomes especially true with weapons like graker. I mean, sure, ammo regen on buttstroke is nice and all, but at least on RV, it is not really necessary. But what else to take? Anything headshot-related is out of the question. Barrage maybe, but most of the time, there is hardly any benefit (and on bosses, where it would be benefitial, graker isn’t worthwile to begin with). Like, give me the option to get a third shot out of the graker. Yeah, that would a be a neat thing for magazine weapons: 50% higher capacity. Or something like that.

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