eh, hunter trait carries over to melee btw. So you can now hit break points with hunter perk active… Hunter can out-damage a scrounger build. I think this comes back to difficulty again, what do you normally play on? Are you legend player? Never having to switch to melee? I don’t think so xD But yea, I see what you mean. Scounger BH can just spam shots.
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It does not carry over, you don’t gain anything from perks on ranged weapons with melee and vice versa. Scrounger as BH wins every day.
eh? Are you sure… I’ve played with damage numbers up and I am sure they carry over. Same thing with barrage which buffs your melee as well.
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They do carry over. You can use the additional 25% to op the shade ult even more. It also stacks multiplicative with everything making it one of the best buffs. So you can power up dat shade ult with gear by +30-50% and then * 1.25 = 720 top. (you could go for the head as well for even more dmg)
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That’s what I thought… I was sure it was common knowledge. When he said it didn’t carry over, I’m sitting here like everything I know is a lie lol… Again, so I’m gonna say, I think the problem is we’re talking about balance across different difficulties.
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Delete Scrounger, Conservative shooter, Heatsink and other career-binded forms to regenerate ammunition. Just the RV ammunition - sack is fine, but i would even rework that.
Thermal Equalizer seems fine and it´s a possible upgrade in a world of magic.
Let´s get some options together for the rangeweapons / careers next to the ammunition packs:
(I don´t want to kill ranged careers so…)
Waystalker:
She gets 10-20% more ammunition, based on the bow.
- 10% swiftbow
- 15% longbow
- 20% hagbane
She is able to consume her ultimate. If she does that, she get 20% ammunition back and an instant cdr of 25%. So she can´t shoot, but faster regen some arrows. You´ve to decide to kill a special or gain ammunition. This perk could replace the actually 20% ammunition back.
RV:
He can´t “spawn” ammunition on special kills anymore automatically. He got 3 ammunition - packs from begin, which he can plant anywhere while pressing the “weapon-special-button”. Those boxes can be used from any group - member 1 time and everyone will get 25% of his ammunition back. (so an overall maximum of 75% ammunition for everybody).
To share bombs / pots, he have to gather death-marks.
- If he decided himself for the bombs, he have to carry 15 elite - deathmarks.
- If he decided to carry some pots, he have to carry 6 special - marks.
After gathering those marks, he will get a bomb or pot immediately and can share them to his teammates. If he can´t carry anymore, a buff will shown, that he can get something, so the player have to trade or throw something around.
Huntsman:
Guns - He is able to dismantle bombs into 35% of his maximum ammunition with the “weapon special button”, when he hold those weapons and carry a bomb.
Longbow - He can carry his last 5 shots for the next 30s. So if he shoot 5 shots into a tree and runs within 30s to this position, he is able to get the arrows back.
Bountyhunter:
This is going to be RNG-based. He´ll get 3 bounties on every start of the map. For example:
- kill 20 Elite´s
- kill 10 special´s
- shoot an assassin out of the air
- kill xy amount of enemies 3 times with your ultimate
etc.
Everytime he finished one of the bounties, he´s able to use the chatwheel and choose the description “recieve bounty”. This will recieve an amount of 20 - 40% of his maximum ammunition back, based on the bounties he recieved. So: 1st bounty 40%, 2nd bounty 30%, last bounty 20%.
Oh and he have to do the kills on his own.
For Sienna or the IB.… i don´t think, that the remove of the heatsink per crit, would effect them so much. Especially if pyro still sits on her current kit, she finally have to use her R.
The Ironbreaker should be forced to play drake-pistols or drake-gun. Crossbow, handgun and shotgun are RV weapons.
The Rapier should be a WHC only weapon and the pistol should get a lil buff. Since the WHC can already gain 20% more ammunition, it seems fine.
FK/Zealot are what they´re. Frontline-monsters… so it´s fine.
Mercenary should get atleast 10% more ammunition, since he isn´t that tanky and don´t have that much ammunition on his weapons.
The HM is fine. She is able to rush anything with her ultimate quite fast. No really need of that endless ammunition.
The Shade is a bit special. I would go the “RNG” way too here. If she backstabs someone, she´s able to get 1-2 arrows back. This x% starts with a 1% chance and will grow to 30% as long as she didn´t got anything back. If she got an arrow, the x% will be resetet about the half of it´s current amount.
So 30% - got an arrow - the next backstep has a chance of 15% to get an arrow.
I would see it “as a steal” here. Not crit- /kill - related. Just “Oh the creepy rat got arrows for me.”
A system like that wouldn´t end in endless ammunition, would be a lil more skill / decision - depended. It would even focus a lil bit more on teamplay and the range-chars are still something special.
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You sure you want to have a say in this whole affair if you don’t even know how the mechanics you want to discuss work? Swift Slaying also carries over to ranged weapons, something you can verify yourself very easily in the keep. Watch some of j_sat’s videos, he runs that specific BH build on solo runs and you can see how incredibly well it synergizes.
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Couldn’t have said it better myself. Was trying to talk about melee weapons with someone today. He didn’t know that only certain weapons could stagger heavies like maulers. Again, this boils down to people to play Recruit-Champ talking about balance which would affect Legend.
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Hey it’s not like there aren’t a whole lot of hidden mechanics. Turning somebody away just because he does not know as much is not ok, he’s a Vermintide player just as much as you are.
We try to convince people not to shut them up.
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Yea… but I mean, come on… He made the thread pushing to remove or change the entire way ranged works in the game without knowing even the basics about it?
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Once again, I’m going to butt in with some practical considerations that I’m surprised no one else has brought up. Namely, how would that kind of Trait move be implemented in practice?
Adding a new Trait is no big deal, any item rolled afterwards has the usual chance to get it. But removing an existing item Trait isn’t that simple, especially with how widely the Traits in question are used. This actually already has a precedent, as the combination of Power vs. Chaos and Skaven was temporarily removed from the jewellery before. It was soon added back though, as some people already had it on their Charms (iirc), and it didn’t affect balance that much. Scrounger (and Conservative Shooter) do affect the balance significantly, so simply leaving the existing items as is isn’t really an option, as the old players would just keep their items as is and new ones would be at a disadvantage.
One option would be to just automatically reroll any offending weapons. Congratulations, now we have a playerbase whose time, work and materials put into those weapons have just been wasted. The frustration and outcry would be huge, even worse for those who don’t have the materials (or patience) to reroll the items. In addition, it would put a huge strain on the game servers as half the active playerbase would be rerolling their items at once. Auto-rolling Traits only wouldn’t really help that much, as one or both Properties are likely to be dependent on the Trait chosen. With Scrounger, Crit Chance is a must. With other Traits there are similar interactions, so even rolling just the Trait would render a large part of these weapons temporarily useless.
Of course, they could just scrap the offending weapons from our inventory, but that would be far worse.
The technical aspects of this would also be quite awful, I think. Even with an automated script, the account of every returning player would need to be scanned and tweaked. That means thousands of accounts, even if it’s limited only to ones who actually come online. That’s again more strain on the servers, especially at the beginning. It also costs money, and with hundreds of weapons in many players’ inventories, it takes time. The latter also affects the players.
While I can’t think of other even remotely sensible options, I’d be happy to read your ideas.
I personally agree that originally putting ammo recovery Traits to ranged weapons was a mistake, but I also think it’s too late to change now considering all the impact it has on the game. That said, even if it was implemented, how many of you are willing to put up with all the inconveniences it would bring?
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I am not trying to push anybody away. Maybe I came across a little harsh (something I am not always aware of, which kinda comes with my profession as a legal practitioner I guess. Being confrontational and disagreeable is what I make a living by. I rarely mean any malice with it, if it came across like that, I apologize), but the point does stand that if you want to discuss something regarding balance, you need to know your basics. It is, of course, something that can be easily missed at first glance, something that has happened to anybody, of course including me. There are alot of hidden mechanics and quirks not obvious at first glance. But this is something you can verify yourself by going into the keep, selecting BH and a weapon with Hunter on it and then comparing the damage numbers that pop up.
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You raise very valid points and this is something I have already hinted at at my previous post. All theory is nice, but when it comes to implementation, there is hardly a way to do it without screwing a major part of the community over in some way. My solution would simply be: Leave Scrounger as it is. It is not the “worst offender”, it is a symptom not a cause (playing the devil’s advocate here since I don’t see any problem at all, but for the sake of the argument, I am going to assume this position for now). Don’t tweak the ammo regen of other carreers, either. If we have learned anything from past experiences, then tweaking melee is the way to go. The recent buff to certain weapons was slight (damage wasn’t increased per se, only against monsters, but attacks were tweaked and ranges altered), but it resulted in a much needed buff for certain weapons (hammer and shield), a very welcome buff to already fun weapons (2h swords) and made fighting bosses in melee satisfying and impactful. Go further down that road, because it has worked. Never change a winning system.
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They could just add 100 of each dust as compensation (I know unthinkable).
But just a random reroll does it in my opinion.
Well I really don’t think it would be that horrible.
Sure what? Everything costs money then right? I mean they could just fire all that work on balance it costs money.
All in all I think everything except the effects on the player base and writing a script to change them all are non issues (the script is just work time but nothing impossible).
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You are unbelievably obnoxious. No where in this thread did I argue with anyone, or try and stop the discussion. I merely pointed out flaws with his suggestion. Once again, you seem to lack the ability to read or comprehend basic English. I even agreed with him that perhaps removing ammo regen would be a solution. Unlike you, I am open to suggestions and willing to discuss them without instantly ruling out everything I don’t agree with. What was I supposed to do? Simply agree with him that Hunter and Barrage don’t carry over to melee. Grow up.
oh boy… you need help mate. kek
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Hey dude to be fair in one of the threads discussing boss instant-180s I just gave some advice to act like you’re always the one tanking the boss until it was changed and that was considered elitist as f!@#.
I think in some regards it’s an, “Offense is taken not given”, circumstance.
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Didn’t read a lot because I had a ton of beers and it seemed like some guys were brewing up an argument.
I’d ABSOLUTELY LOVE it if we could put scrounger in melee then as a HS I could just windmill into a horde with a 1h sword and get max ammo without having to hope they lined up. Literally in seconds probably. Great idea.
Actually this might be even more fun as a Mercenary with Crit Build.
So the real issue being scrounger is broken no matter where you put it (melee or ranged) and that the scrounger trait - coupled with the possibility of crits - put heavy emphasis on ranged and makes it so damn easy to crit the living hell out of things and get max ammo.
Possibly it is the frequency of the crits that is causing the overblown ammo regen, so what if it was geared to taggable enemies only?
What if it restored 1 ammo instead of 2?
What if crit chance was halved?
We’re discussing the impact of Scrounger when actually the trait Scrounger itself is broken - so how would you change it?
The long term question is; if there is no ranged meta WTF is going to become the main problem for melee?
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I do think FS did go a bit far with the ranged classes, but please nerf the classes and not the weapons because nerfing weapons does almost zero to the class in question and makes them more unusable for the other 2 classes.
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ideal
just make scrounger passive regain 5% ammo per 15~20 sec.