I don’t need NB for ammo.
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The devs can always phase it out. I.e. first add the new traits that seem required, leave Scrounger in place, but coupe the underlying mechanic - neutralize it, prevent from actually triggering and adding ammo, as well as prevent it from showing up on re-rolls. This does not solve the outcry problem - there is no pill for that (except old-fashioned honest game development tool called “play-testing” prior to the release, but ut’s too late for that, and good gamedev strategies seem out of fashion nowadays). But at least this approach lifts the burden off the backend because players will gradually reroll the now-useless trait on their own time and not all at once automagically.
Sooo, ummm, in what sense is melee not already viable versus range? Good players clear maps with any class, and players that aren’t able to beat their current difficulty reliably will probably increase their winrate by playing a tank. The “ranged meta” classes are mostly good at getting green circles in runs that they would have won as anything. At that point, who cares?
Sure, watching the sienna clear hordes is slightly boring, but that sort of thing is actually good play even in a full melee comp. If your teammates are able to handle a horde on their own, pitching in yourself accomplishes nothing, while watching your team’s backs means that you won’t get backstabbed by a pinky or surprised by a horde coming from a different direction. Ranged classes just make it even more obvious that you shouldn’t be paying attention to the horde that is already being handled.
If anything, the biggest issue with ranged classes is that they are a noob trap. A new player runs around murdering everything, mispositions, and goes down. If his team is competent, they can handle things just fine on their own, so they clear out the wave, pick him up, and he goes back to killing everything. At the end of the game, he gets the green circle and thinks that he carried, even though his team could probably have handled the entire map without him. If his team isn’t competent, they can’t handle things as 3 once he goes down, and the team fails. He still probably gets a green circle, so he thinks that he played well and his issue is his noob teammates. If he played a more survivable class, he wouldn’t have gone down there to begin with and he might have won that game, but he wouldn’t get as many green circles, so he would think that he isn’t contributing as much.
We are not exclusively talking about map completion.
I think melee should be on par in potential with ranged weaponry (scoreboard) but with unlimited ammo that’s just simply not the case. (The things the scoreboard doesn’t list can be done by ranged careers as well)
It’s because it can remove the fun and challenge from the game. Note that were talking Legend only almost always on the forums and therefore want at least a certain amount of challenge.
I generally agree with the rest.
Except ranged characters don’t remove the challenge from the game imo. If you are playing on legend and a lone stormvermin or a horde running at you in a straight line is a challenge, you are doing something wrong. Things become hard when you have rats coming at you from all directions + specials/elites/bosses, and that’s where ranged characters start to falter. They are great at eliminating some of the threats, sure, but they don’t have great defensive tools and they can’t eliminate everything at once. So a bh can one shot a mauler, but successfully doing so when you are being pressured by rats isn’t exactly easy. I’d much prefer to be a glaive handmaiden in that sort of scenario.
You don’t seem to have seen players using them to their full potential. Most of them can loaded out right kill 1 SV/s a and CW in 2-3 headshots (they are staggered so it’s quite easy) and/or remove at least 1/3 (usually way more) of a horde and that’s one of 4 players.
The above makes it harder for every career. Ranged careers have 100hp not uncommon for other careers and have no drawbacks in melee they only lack the buffs others might have.
That’s why they usually fail not because of the kit they have but because they have almost no experience in melee fighting. I’v seen countless times how they keep on trying to fight with their ranged weaponry in those cases just to die horribly.
Now it’s been quite some time since I’ve ran into a ranged player that could dominate the game like that I suspect that they got bored of their class, play-style or the game by now just like I was after 3h of that.
This is not meant as a correction of your stand point but to give you another perspective on it.
I would like to see a balance were the maximum potential is somewhat balanced (skill should have an edge here) and care little about the average performance one might usually see. I don’t want to take away peoples easy toys just limit them somewhere.
I don’t think that balancing around max potential makes that much sense in a coop game. At that point, people will be winning games regardless of loadout. The difference between a strong career and a weak career just means that one will clear faster than the other, and I have a hard time caring that much about the difference. I don’t even think that the ranged run will truly be easier – I’ve had some silky smooth 4 tank runs. It takes that sort of team a bit longer to clear stuff, but good players will still be breezing through the level.
I mean, sure, ranged builds can 1 shot stormvermin and 3 shot chaos warriors. So can dual daggers/dual axes. Glaive/halberd can handle them just fine as well. Even stuff like 1h mace can handle them efficiently enough, even if it is a bit slower. The difference is mostly just that the ranged character can kill them before the melee character can get in range. They will still go down pretty quickly once the melee character can get in range, though.
If you could nerf ranged play at high levels without touching average skill levels, than I wouldn’t lose much sleep over the matter, but I don’t think that is possible. Average players use the same tools that high level players do, they just have worse positioning and awareness (mostly).
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Hunter BH xbow - strong.
Scrounger BH xbow with +35% reload speed&prized bounty - broken OP.
Next, if we assume that everyone in a team is a veteran, then doing legend deeds with various modifiers - ranged careers are too often a much better pick, be it for elite/special clear, for horde clear, or cc. With the exception of IB with shield to be a controller for 3 shooting teammates, or shade to nuke bosses.
Really the only times i see that melee careers are more preferable - is on horde deeds with something like sudden death/abduction so you need that toughness to stay alive and survive a melee ruck. But there are still blunderbusses, rakers, drakeguns, hagbanes, and staves, which are more spammable with ranged careers, and not forget about xbow and empire longbow hordeclear.
More specials deed = get everyone a handgun /xbow /longbow, with ammo sustain and better with faster reload (RV and huntsman) - which means range careers are better here.
More elites + hbfs = get one meatshield (IB) and a shooting team (huntsman longbow scrounger, BH xbow scrounger, then something like waystalker hag/longbow or any wizard career with any staff). Nothing different comes even close to the efficiency of this team composition for this deed.
More waves + vanguard or hbfs = there was one setup that worked just awesome on warcamp(!) - 2 flamers (IB+BW), 2 shooters for anti elite+special (BH xbow and Huntsman Longbow).
Ranged meta is too strong in deed runs, because all the modifiers mean you need more damage per second (no matter what target), while you also need to minimize the increased risks. Ranged spam with high sustain, nearly infinite, with DPS perks such as faster reload which ranged careers usually have - solves both these problems expertly.
Every second when a ranged career is on the field - he provides damage or control, ranged careers can faster focus dps a wave, or an elite, or a boss(!). While melee careers are slower to get stuff done.
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TBH I didn’t read the entire thread so i’m building on what i read but also i might repeat things so sorry.
For scrounger limit the frequency of procing say once per 10 sec. Also tie the ammo recovered to max ammo: 1 for x-bow/long bow, 2-3 for most others and like 4-5 for swift bow. so aprox 5% base ammo count.
also you could limit it to one proc per left click. Making it a melee thing is risky b/c it can turn non ranged characters into ranged spammers too.
For waystalker the passive ammo gen might be too much. Make it a more active thing like her ult. for example:
- make WS ult give 10% ammo by default
- talent 1: 30% cdr
- talent 2: 20% ammo
- talent 3: add another arrow to the ult (4 instead of 3) so more damage potential
Change her lvl 15 talents:
- 2/3 regen to entire team
- raise threshold to 70% (someone else suggested this i think)
- Double personal hp regen (halve time to 5 sec interval)
I feel like sienna is another big spammer problem largely b/c all of her careers and vent with ult. The other part that can be more easily fixed is heat sink trait. I think do same as scrounger and give it an internal timer so it can only proc every 10 sec or whatever.
Maybe also tie overcharge vent from ults to the base duration so the shorter ults dont vent full overcharge. ex:
- BW ult vents 2/3 current heat
- PM ult vents 1/2 current heat
- UC ult vents all heat
Rerolling a trait takes all of about 30 seconds. Hardly a big deal.
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That won’t make melee better, it’ll just remove “choice” for a a lot of builds. If we did this, Scrounger would become the no brainer choice for so many different characters, weapons and builds.
Plus, your melee weapon can’t run out of ammo, so it’ll be constant fuel for your ranged weapon. Even then, it won’t fix issues like heat weapons, shotgun bashing, BH and WS infinite ammo, etc.
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So I see you didn’t read what I wrote, that’s ok I guess.
It’s not about just moving it! They have to balance it out, it can’t be applied to crits because that would only make people favour weapons with high crit, high attack speed.
Having scrounger, or rather getting the Scavanger trait back.
"When killing an enemy, there is a 10.0 - 24.0% chance to replenish 5% ammunition for your weapon.
Note: Amount replenished is rounded down. (eg: 39 max ammo means 1 ammo per scavenger proc, but 40 means 2.) Amount replenished can be increased by Ammunition Holder."
Note that it’s not 10.0 - 24.0% chance on hits, but on kills so on a “normal” run you will have around 200-300 chances as a waystalker for the entire run. So let’s say we put it at 15% and you get 300kills, that’s 45 procs wich is 45 arrows during the run for hagbane.
This worked perfectly fine in V1, not saying that it should be the only ammo regen available, but looking at BH who currently can have 1 arrow left and shot said arrow into a horde and having 25 after shooting a single arrow, ammunition becomes pointless for him. Why switch to melee when he can kill an entire horde with out them reaching him, and yes Sienna is very much in the same ballpark with fireball staff, but she still takes damage from venting too much, same goes for Bardin with drakefire pistols.
Also, for people who say “new player with ideas” or anything like that, no, I’m not a new player, currently 600 hours with all achivements and challanges completed in V2 and 500 hours with all achivements in V1. The reason why I bring this up is because of the amount of thread with people complaning about the ranged meta, people who join me and my friends games as a Zealot when our group is comprised of Pyromancer, Iron Breaker and Waystalker/shade and they either leave because they don’t get anything done or they get mad and try to kill us in some way, wich they fail with because we actually very rarely fail maps.
So who cares really, people can go ahead and keep complaning about the ranged meta, or you can join in and breeze through every map without a single problem, trivializing the games challange.
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Yeah, the V1 traits felt better compared to the V2 traits. Health on hit had lower % compared to health on kill; Straight out improved push is better than the V2 equivalent where it only affects “attacking enemies”.
You couldn’t really manipulate proc chance a la crit chance in V2.
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Kinda offtopic I guess, but yeah, I preferred the V1 traits and properties. Getting a 10% chance to heal on kill (depending on the weapon) felt a lot more rewarding and cool than having stock white health. That works well imo, and I probably wouldn´t scrap it, but adding some of V1´s traits and properties including bloodlust would be cool.
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