To more uneven classes

Warhammer 40,000: Darktide General Discussion
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Idk if Bolter Veteran is even that OP anymore tbh, given Gunlugger Ogryn and Psyker seem to be able to the same thing and probably better.

With Stubber and Ripper and the right build Gunlugger can literally can melt horde of elite/special in a second, doesn’t matter if they’re Bulwark or Crusher. Their big ammo pool also mean their can do that longer, on top of auto reload on Ability use and lucky ammo.

Psycher with Assail can insta gib all mob before Vet can even put their eye on sight and the Void staff have been buffed so hard it just shred Ogryn enemy and knock them on their ass, pretty much disable them. It doesn’t suffer from lenghty reload like Bolter too.

Haven’t try Zealot yet.

Although I think Vet have the upper hand on survivability and long range fight, kinda.

I’ve seen someone shredding Crusher on Vet with Recon Lasgun, don’t know what’s their build but it seem quite strong. That just make Krak grenade, Bolter and the poor Plasma gun obselete lol

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Probably crit rending + consecutive hit rending doing a lot of the heavy lifting there.

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FatShark should really link forum accounts to the game accounts to see their characters’ status.
Multiple times I’ve read such BS as “I’ve all played all classes and veteran is the best” or “I’m vet main and vet way OP”. Then turns out they are Psyker or Zealots mains when they are showing off their pwnage videos.

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TL;DR:

Bolter with @weeping.moon’s suggestion is playable, but it’s worse in every way possible apart from defenses.

On Psyker and Zealot, you pick a weapon and a playstyle and you can get a boost to it along the way. With Vet, you pick a weapon pick what’s necessary to make it work, and see what playstyle you end up with.

I tried it and it’s… Meh. I did make some slight modifications (Field Improvisation is too good to pass up), but it’s basically the same. I didn’t like bolter that much before, but is fine I guess as a balanced baseline, other classes are just stronger.

Upsides:

  • Voice of Command (with toughness overcap node) makes you invincible for 10 seconds if you aren’t touching fire. It has ridiculous synergy with Iron Will. Overcap toughness is basically a Toughness bar protecting your Toughness.
  • Voice of Command is a superb “oh sh-t” button to Volleyfire quick toughness regain.
  • Support for the team is good.
  • You can run bleed nades with +Reload feats. Reload speed is overall better.
  • Delete crushers.
  • Boss damage with bolter seems better (although I might be wrong on this, I didn’t play that much bolter on Vet)
  • For the Emperor and Rending Strike giving a melee boost is nice.

Downsides:

  • Ammo eco is mega nerfed. Overall ammo eco outside las is nerfed in general, but Bolter took one of the largest hits. You won’t have enough ammo to clear half of the specials on the map.
  • General damage (and stagger) is much lower, so dealing with elites/specials (especially gunners) takes longer.
  • No Suppression immunity. This feels super bad, any gunner just makes you unable to shoot anything not infront of you.
  • No sway reduction/Recoil reduction. It locks bolter to a close to mid-range, and it’s extremely hard to clear aggroed human gunners with the weapon.
  • Clearing shooters is both a lot harder and not really worth it.
  • Ammo dumping blobs to suppress and soften is (almost) never worth it.
  • No instant reload. It totally bricks the playstyle I’ve gone for with Bolter the most. It’s more of a feel thing tho.
  • No instant swap. This is kinda weird to play. Maybe it’s a skill thing or just I have to unlearn something, but swapping is very, very costly playing as a special remover guy and I find myself sitting on a bolter waiting for a target too much. I played some bolter on Zealot before the patch and it wasn’t an issue there so IDK.

For me, it feels like they took all the ideas of how to adjust/nerf bolter and just stacked all of it. All in all it’s absolutely playable, but I also found Recon playable before the rework so that isn’t much.

Executioner stance makes some of the downs go away, but IDK if it’s worth it making you a lot less survivable. Will probably try it out.

My main takeaway is that both the offensive, defensive, and supportive powers are locked into the middle pathway too much. You also have to pay a premium for much-needed utility for specific weapons.

When I tried Psyker and Zealot it always felt like Powerful nodes (be it power or utility) were just 1 or 2 points away. I was able to pick any weapon go for a playstyle, build everything along the way, and select a Keystone I want, maybe swap a few things around.

On Vet you have 3-4 multiplicative damage nodes and some of the strongest defensive stuff right in the middle, and going for good nodes on the sides you might want at the end of the tree will cost you 4-5 nodes.

Why are extra ammo and suppression immunity at the end of the tree and not at the Scavenger aura and Executioner Stance? Why are Defensive stuff at the end of the tree and not at the beginning and middle like every other class? It’s very weird. The left side has so many bad choices never worth taking it’s not even funny.

Apart from the obvious badly organized nodes at the left side…

Auras are super bad and need adjustments. Scavenger is fine (If less overall ammo is what they were going for) but the other 2 are the worst stuff in the game. It feels like you are taxed to forgo Scavenger going middle or right side.

New combat abilities are just not as good as the similar abilities the other classes get, stealth and support Ult feels much better and stronger on Zealot. It is only saved by the nodes at the end locking you into going fully down an end path if you want a competitive Combat Ability. It feels like you pay for powerup for your Combat Ability at 2 places.

It seems that what they wanted to avoid with Vet keystones is still the case, you are very pigeon to go down certain paths and pay a lot for nodes that enable weapons to do their job. It’s not that there isn’t power in the tree it’s just locked up soo thightly I don’t feel like you have much of a choice.

Also, I don’t know why would anyone go Vet right end branch instead of just playing a Zealot. Maybe for melee maelstrom maps if you want to bring scavenger to the team? Even in that case, I think the middle-end branch is probably better.

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True

Also true

It’s not they wanted, there were weapon specific keystones, but poorely balanced, so they scraped it. As far as i know. I suppose they will bring them one day.

Right know i think they can remove this two and put something usefull there

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Like these two instead
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The reasoning they gave was that they felt either mandatory, a tax, or not worth taking. We have stuff like that still on the tree, like no ammo consumption on crit with las weapons? Do you play recon? Better take it. Everything else? Skip, skip.

Have to wait and see. I’d love to see some actual keystones instead of what we have now. I guess they have to rebalance Combat Abilities then, I feel like the damage boost at the end of the tree is the thing that makes them good enough.

Absolutely. It’s so strange they aren’t there to begin with.

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personally i would love the Bolter or a bolt pistol for my Psyker,

that said i dont think the hate to the Psyker is warranted
as 2 of the builds i use get hit hard and are no longer playable with the changes to Warp Charges.
so i know the pain of Vet players as many Vet builds are less viable than before.

that said this is a Vet issue not a Psyker issue,
and im sure with some Vet Skill Tree buffs we will see the Vet returned to their former glory.

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As I said in the official thread.

Fatshark screwed up. Big time. And not just be personal taste, but by any objective manner of assessment. They took feedback from a group whose first few words should have immediatly raised enough red flags to get them thrown out. Then they poured everything into three trees but forgot the 4th so just threw stuff looted from the forums together.

The only good part is that eventually this “hate the Vet hate the Vet” will find a new target class. Maybe it will be the psyker for having “ranged when the game is about melee” or the Orgyn for not doing enough dps. Then that class will get to eat the nerf bat until they can no longer be considered a even slightly credible threat to the “elites” status, and the situation will repeat. If there is one thing predictable about these people, its that they are NEVER content. They always have to have some scapegoat to blame for their own screwups and always have to see said scapegoat “put in their place”. And if the powers that be don’t placate them they throw tantrums that feature review bombing, YouTube rants, etc.

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So i played this build a bit more myself. Here what i can add if someone wanna try it: it works well when paired with chainsword (anything decent with chainsword now tbh) and it’s similar to kruber merc with exe-sword+repeater gun except you have a great mobility and can run around and reposition yourself a lot, especially with some sprint affixes on curios.

So since shred special deletes almost everything, kinda of melee bolter, it worse not to shoot mutes if there is no hard need, but catch em on the run with heavy shred. And overall just don’t shoot what can be killed in melee, for ammo saving. Bleed stacks from shred it feels also good vs bosses now.

It is, but high mobility weapon (chainsword preferably) + voice of command gives ability to tank 'em almost like zealot does. VoC also helps to earn some time for reloading. Overall it’s like 50/50 hybryd build since central branch nodes affects both melee and range.

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How do you deal with knockback? I feel like if you have good team you can run down shooters with Vet even before the patch. If not no chance.

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Vet even before the patch. If not no chance.

I mean yes, but i mostly was using mg12 on vet, so it’s quite rare i was needed to do so in previous patch. Now supression can be a problem even on mg12 with Between the Eyes blessing. Kantrael shotgun special attack fits well this build, but need a bit more ammo again. So incorporating hyperagressive zealot playstyle feels almost mandatory.

How do you deal with knockback?

Trying to do regular stuff like dancing around obstacles, chosing rat angels and spam slide, this node helps i suppose too
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But bad situation happens tho, like when it’s some big open space and a blob of gunners sitting behind some fence and i can’t reach them in melee or with nades. But on the other hand there are so many stuff against shooters - dome/wall, psy shards, ogryn gunlugger in the end, etc. so not like it’s vet’s holy duty now (if support build)

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Yeah, that why I’m not buying it.

What you described is something close to what I would play with Rashad+Recon or Knife+Plasma before the patch and there was always Volley+Unweavering to fall back on if there was a gunner on the side or a sudden special train.

Now if you go melee mode and get caught off guard by anything slightly away you are in huge trouble. Your TDR is based on coherency and remaining above 75% which even with the get-out-jail shout isn’t much if you can’t deal with whats attacking you.

It was pretty risky doing it even before the patch, and now I don’t feel it’s reasonable.

If you want to sell it to me then let me know why would I run this over Zealot where you actually can do that 10 times easier (even before the patch). You can slap on bolter to Zealot too (but switching to it is almost certainly a DPS loss).

Now with every class, most load-outs can deal with any threat pretty well. I’m pretty sure this Bolter Vet build has bigger holes than any class had pre-patch, and it’s not like overly efficient in any area.

I feel like this is a pure enabler/buff build and it works fine as that with some all-around usefulness offensively and matches well with an aggressive team, but that’s that.

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Magdumbing was my “oh my god how boring is this but it works” six months ago meta. I’m sort of glad it’s out. I’m also glad other classes have something that comes close now, that is GOOD.

However this whole update has left me wondering: Who was it for?

If it was to make the game console-gamer-press-x-to-continue capable, it’s not going to be. Crossplay, what a joke. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Mjz6j_CUzA

If it was to benefit the players, does Fatties still employ people who design stuff that actual people USE who THINK that “press to get +5% to something, somehow” is how humans work and think of things?

The variety of builds of good. The implementation…meh, not so much really. Mostly it’s like Cyberpunk remade never happened. Like we’re locked to thinking in terms of the original and not like it’s now. Be brave Fatshark, rethink, do it again.

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Well as i said

supression can be a problem even on mg12 with Between the Eyes

So it’s not a bolter specific problem. But it’s quite rare in the end when you are supressed, and both can’t toss nade or engage in melee. It’s more like 50/50 range-melee with this build, rather it was like 70/30 before.

Volley+Unweavering

And now it’s VoC. Like i have 130 toughness, can get 180 more from VoC, +TDR proc from Iron Will. +20% resist vs gunner on curio, maybe it’s worse to roll more. It will be enough to kill atleast 1 gunner to start Confirmed Kill cycle.

You can. But vet still have juicy range nodes for bolter - reload speed nodes, vs ogryns dmg, confirmed kill and ammo regen aura. Both Rending Strike and For the Emperor buffs range damage too. There are poeple who play only vet and haven’t touch zealot or any class ever.

Now with every class, most load-outs can deal with any threat pretty well

Yes, but it’s matter of preferences, depending on which it’s either bad or good. For me personaly it is a problem.

Uh, probably. But it’s almost always like that. Big balance changes force to learn new ways to play. And almost everytime people are overreacting that something is completely broken.

Yes you can’t be a magdumper anymore with unlimitted ammo. But somehow i’m sure that before to complain most people didn’t try new approachs.

Like Infiltrate ultimate could be good for bolter, similar to how hunter kruber with repetear was. There are a lot of juicy stuff like -90% aggro so you can reload safely, suppresion and damege buff. Or smoke nades can be a hidden gem ability against gunners both to engage them and escape.

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You’re correct.

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Tbh, voice of command seems a good ability, the defensive of the vet (each class has one).
It can reanimate your teammates and with the right end level talent, you can get a nice boost when activated.
Stealth seems good to play as a scout. Did not test it seriously, I will tomorrow. But my first game was good. Played with a recon lasgun and combat axe that suits well for such gameplay.
No, veteran have also their new gameplays. They are also incredibly strong cause now you can, like on zealot, combine “feats” that you could not before.
Honestly, Vet is still great. And don’t forget that this class has access to incredible weapons (helbore, plasma gun, power sword)

I did a template for revolver oriented critic… that’s a pure pleasure… Vet is still a strong class.

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what happen to flexibility. while the Veteran is a good start it missing alot of features and options which is kind of sad while zealot and Psyker got the biggest boost the ogyrn was the most middle of the 4 while veteran was the worst. the veteran is yes useable was better then the previous one but is worest of

We’ve ended up with a Veteran talent tree that provides a suitably rigid layout with three clear lanes. We have tuned the tree to allow for flexibility, where zig-zagging across the different lanes is not just an option but encouraged

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this was the option that was released one day before which got everyone hyped and standard to plan adn guess the items

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had to make my own since there was none of the current one online. sorry for the crappy snipit

this is the skill tree we have can you tell the difference. the grenade lock to a particular path

i would like to experiment with the games different talents but i have 3 skill points to actually use around the different area. so you know about it is encourage it not really snice the EA one was far more flexible with it’s point allocation and spreading out i could take all the talents from the previous tree and have about 5 talents left to spend in other area’s. it is easier for other class due to the fact that they are more streamlined into certain pathing option but veteran has 30 like the other classes but 86 talents, they also lack keystone while i understand the fact they were doing specific for weapons, which is specialization you could still do it but rather then having the single end augments which are kind of meh. you can do specialisation on weapon’s such as lasguns or balastics and provide a basic fundations. or even better regimental specialization:

examples:
segie: you build stacks of damage resistence when standing still max 3 10% a stack you move or dodge you lose the stack
augment it by each stack increase damge and have to be rebuilt on shot.
augment : increase critcal chance when standing still.

drop regiment: increase ddge range: dodging increase movement speed for 2 secounds by 5%.
augment: increase jump and clamber height.
augment: reduce fall damge.

Shock trooper/scion/karskin: increase melee attack speed.
augment: once every 90-120 secounds you get out of mutant and dog’s (ogyrn should also have a talent like this)
augmented: on elite kill generate TDR stack max 10 each stack last 10 secounds. on damage remove one stack on toughness reach 0. does a small stagger 2meter radius removing all stacks…

there is 3 example of how one could do keystones. and themed them around a regimental type like Tempestus scions (karskin/Stormtroopers), krieg’s seige, Eylisan Drop troopers.

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Gunpsyker is an objectively better Veteran than Veteran now. The only role for Veteran is Boltgun. MAYBE Heavy Infantry Las, but I doubt it.

Nah you can also spec into full support, better medpacks, nade regen for everyone, toughness and dmg buffs for team and aoe revive. I agree it sucks to only outperform others in full support style while you were meant to be dmg class

And yeah psyker is hilariously overtuned rn. Hoping for nerfs soon

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I’m happy to try a new approach to achieving the playstyle I want, but I don’t want to have to radically diverge from that playstyle. Every other class can still do what they did before. I’m not sure there’s any cases where they can’t do these things better than they did before. Not so with vet’s ranged play.

They made a point to say that they wanted to get away from the “you are playing THIS GUY” feel of the old systems. I think it’d be tough to make a convincing argument that they’ve succeeded with that in vet’s class. Instead of being a ranged specialist with an array of playstyles that were largely defined by your weapon choice, you’re now a lasgun marksman or a budget zealot.

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Shredder you can still dodge around and probably nail reload on special / elite kill. That is why it was the uberest weapon (is. ? since krak grenades exist now)

Though I understand that Autoguns are more iconic, and cannot do that