These easy changes would make this game so much better

  1. Give players a little reward if they play bad and give them big rewards if they play well. But please do not let games end without a reward! This is frustrating to many players and also to me. Here are some examples that i would change.

Diablo 3 has a pretty good reward system in my opinion. I am not saying that Diablo 3 is a better game but it is a grinding game and people are very motivated to do the same thing again and again because it has such a good reward system. So why do not copy the good parts of this game to vermintide?

1.1 Now: If players finish a map then they get loot and if they do not finish it they get no loot.
Better idea 1: If players finish a map give them 2 loot boxes. If players do not finish a map but reached the half then give them 1 loot box.
Better idea 2: If player do not finish a map give them parts of loot boxes, maybe 1/2 if they finished tha half and 1/3 if they finished one third, etch. The parts could be crafted to complete loot boxes.
Better idea 3: Create checkpoints on everymap. Every reached checkpoint increases the loot amount.

1.2 Now: if we take tomes and grimoirs then the map gets harder. But if we do not finish the map then we just get nothing for the try. It is very frustrating because i often think that it would be better not to take the tomes and grimoires. It is a bad idea to punish players if they want a challenge.
Better idea: give the players a little reward if they die with tomes/grimoires (extra xp or loot box parts like in 1.1)

1.3 Now: We get the same XP for all maps. We get the same XP if there was 1 troll or 4 trolls. We get the same XP if we finish the map in 15 minutes or in 25 minutes. It is a bad idea to reward players no matter how hard the map was and no matter how good they played.
Better Idea: Give players extra XP/Loot if they were faster than the average. Give players extra XP/loot for every troll in the map because every troll makes it harder. Give players extra XP/loot for longer maps.

The point is that players who want to push XP do always play the easiest/fastest map and this is pretty boring. It would be so much better if we could just play any map and try to play as good as possible to get the most xp. This would be much more fun and challenging.

  1. This point is pretty easy: Show us some numbers!!! Every RPG has a character sheet with %crit, health, crit damage, etc… It is so bad that we just have to hit the dummies in lobby to get these numbers. And then we have to wonder if the numbers are bugged or they are working as designed. Give us the numbers so we can be sure which item is better for our hero.
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I disagree with all your points. Allow me to go into more depth:

1.1: If you got such reward even without finishing a map, it would be extremely easy to grind rewards by just repeatedly failing a mission on starting it, and it’d be more efficient than going through to finish the mission. Players shouldn’t be encouraged to fail on purpose.

1.2: The very point of grimoires, and tomes to lesser extent, is risk vs. reward. That there exists a decision between taking them or leaving them gives taking them meaning - your suggestion would take that meaning away.

1.3: Players are already rewarded for completing maps quick - they invest less time for the same reward. Putting time limits on rewards, which that part of your suggestion would effectively be, would only encourage players to beat the clock and be reckless. Putting extra xp rewards for killing more bosses or the like would include a random element that the players couldn’t influence, which would be frustrating for players looking to level.

2: The intent for keeping the numbers behind a level of obstruction is simple - to make players look less at statistics and to judge weapons by their feel, by their whole effect on gameplay. While I think some more data would be helpful, I wouldn’t wish for this to become a spreadsheet rpg.

1.1 Of course we have to make sure that people do not fail on purpose. I edited my post some minutes before youre post to precise how i meant it.
1.2 I understand your point but i just think that the idea behind tomes/grimoires is a bad idea in a game. People should get a reward if they beat a challenge and should not get it if they not beat it. But the point is that people loose the loot they would get if they wouldnt take it and finish the map. This is a frustrating system in my opinion
1.3 There are many other games that give bonuses for quick map finishings. I think it would be more fun and motivating to play better. The game just feels like “u get what all get no matter if u are a good player or a bad player”. It feels boring if it does not matter how you play.

Completely disagree with you Hasgar, pretty much for the exact same reasons as Tuo… But for me it boils down to lore of the game more than a question of effort vs reward.

1.1 Defeats should feel like failures so loot rewards no matter how much effort you’ve put in just feels wrong - besides, you get scaled experience based on mission progression as your defeat “reward”. After all, we are adventurers being tasked with a job and if we screw up, all we would have to show for it would be our bruises.

1.2 Tuo hit the nail on the head with tomes etc - they’re an in game choice to make the scenario more difficult in the hope of better loot as a result. You make these decisions on the fly based on your team and adapt accordingly - again, to merely reward these feel wrong. Again, wanting to be absorbed in to the world of Vermintide I can easily see adventurers making decisions as they go along as to what they need to carry to complete the mission vs to get more rewards.

1.3 Pretty obvious, if I get a mission from a dude in a keep you can bet your backside that he’s paying a flat rate to get the job done… He doesn’t care how long or hard it is… he’s still only giving you a loot box if you do what he’s asked - and he may even give you a slightly better one if you bring him back some goodies on the way!

  1. As above… Number are just another thing that takes away from the lore of the game - I’m invested in my characters and don’t want them or the game to become some sort of colour by numbers spreadsheet.

Very much hope that when Fat Shark read these sort of threads they take in all opinions before making any rash design changes!

I understand your points from the different point of view - the lore of the game. But if someone wants to level a hero fast then it is best to play the easiest/fastest map again and again and again. And it does not really matter how good/bad he plays. This is pretty boring in my opinion and must be changed.

Definitely agree with that… And I guess that’s why the quick play bonus was brought in. I guess I’m just a different sort of player - I don’t come in to games thinking what’s the fastest way to level etc, I just choose who I want to play with and click the quickplay button on the difficulty I think I can handle.

The origin of the game is left 4 dead, which was basically run from cover to cover, if you fail - you die. Its the concept of this game, meanwhile diablo 3 etc are heavy rpg games. You cant really compare the games or the rewards.
Yes the game is hard to get into, the rewards at endgame content are a bit harsh, but the reward system of winning a game - getting 3 lootboxes is already way more then it would be needed. (you can craft nearly everything, so as long as you can finish a map, you can grind whatever item you want.)
Give the game more time, get more into the mechanics. It looks simple but it has some deep learning curves, thats the point of doing the same maps over over and over again. (comparison to dark souls for learning curves) you dont dodge assassins and hookrats after 50h of playtime consistently enough if you didnt try learning it.

I dont rly get it, ppl who want to grind xp they rush the difficulty and grab tomes / grims, try their best to win the mission to get all the bonus xp AND better loot? If youre referring to legend runs on certain maps - thats the learning curve, in V1 it was horn of magnus. Its a map you know perfectly well so you can focus on improving in other aspects. If in V1 they would add cataclysm +1 difficulty, most players would try it on horn of magnus.

Or the intent can be to hide bugs and imbalances.

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Disagree with all. They need to fix red drop ration, thats all. Dont need to turn this game into some sort of “GG 2 EZ” Diablo 3 first person clone.

I think one big problem people have is the mindset they should always get loot. You can easily do higher without full orange/red. The loot should be the reward for your work.

Diablo 3 is not easy on higher greater rifts. The point is that diablo 3 gives little rewards to bad players and high rewards to good players. There is a motivation to play it even if you are bad because you get little progress. But V1 and V2 gives you sometimes no progress at all and sometimes it gives you the same progress as bad players if you win. This is a bad reward system in my eyes.

Well players get the same reward for completing the same thing?

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V1 and V2 are co-op Games you are only as good as the worst person in your group and you are rewarded for completing the challenge as a group this game rewards teamwork over solo skill

i never said something about solo rewards. the whole team gets the same rewards. thats ok

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