Yes.
If you take a hit, then do nothing about it and then take another hit then you will die.
Do not play the game that way.
if you take a hit, generate THP, so you don’t die when you take another hit. It’s easy to generate THP. It doesn’t require much skill, effort or time. And you’re bound to do it anyway, because you cannot avoid melee as ranged classes. But you probably know that, since you play cata.
You die if you don’t. And if you don’t do it on Sienna, then you don’t get to vent.
If you feel so, yeah. Then Barkskin or HT are better choices.
But… Earlier you suggested that Zealot (most likely the most aggressive class) can benefit from NB. You said that you use NB on Zealot yourself. On Cata, I assume.
Because they cannot. And do not. They benefit more from Barkskin because specials and area of effect damage are the biggest threat to them.
I don’t have to, because they already play the way I said. 99% of people who play ‘backliners’ take either Barkskin or Boon of Shallya and then rely on THP and healing items to stay alive.
Except that’s not true. Because:
Natural Bond is never the best choice in any scenario.
There are several traits that fit into all the possible scenarios and there’s no space for NB.
Barkskin is always a better choice than Natural Bond (that’s why Barkskin is the most popular trait while NB is dead, used only by newbies or delusional people)
I am not going to be moderate about something that I know is 100% true.
I didn’t say that. I said that there’s zero situations in which Natural Bond would be the best choice. There’s always a better choice to make.
I didn’t accept any contrary evidence because… There is none. There isn’t an argument that I didn’t manage to counter.
You might like NB and you might do well with NB on cata. But:
There’s always a better option.
Vast majority of people do not do good with NB; they are dentrimental to the team.
It’s barely seeing any use, it’s a dead trait that’s mocked for being a noob trap.
Been a while since i’ve played, but I loved natural bond on my warrior priest and ironbreaker. they have enough damage reduction that bark skin doesn’t really feel necessary - temp HP is gained is easy enough.
I always with my GF who plays SOTT, so since my temp HP is slowly filled in with actual HP, all the THP overflow has a good place to go.
as insurance coverage its fine, but it is like paying for insurance all the time and get a payout every 3rd run^^ NB gives me directly what something, not much but better than nothing.
To be honest i dont get what you want, almost every guy in this topic says it is good and meta if you are not comfy enough and that the other traits are better, we are just saying we are comfy enough on the difficulties we play so we dont see much value anymore from these traits.
But i bet as soon as we step up a difficulty we would switch back. I also switch back when i play difficulties where i am feeling not as comfy.
So we all aggree that boon of shallya and barkskin are meta, but NB has a good niche as soon as you are comfy. And because of this niche we dont see that a rework is needed. Maybe you dont understand that not every trait/weapon can be meta. The more options in traits and weapons you have the more have the gamedesigners to look for a niche where additional weapons/traits can be useful to provide a wellrounded arsenal. You dont have to pick it if your gameplay doesnt fit it.
If you can generate enough THP on IB (and you can) and don’t feel like having a failsafe in form of Barkskin then you’re better off doing what I do and taking Healer’s Touch to heal the team.
What difficulty did you play on? Natural Bond is quite forgiving on lower difficulties.
Except Barkskin is an amazing insurance plan that everyone recommends and Natural Bond is a scam.
Buffed/reworked Natural Bond trait.
Two people? Three? I’m too lazy to load up the whole thread but I bet there just as much who agreed something should be changed about NB.
You and 2-3 other people.
Versus the whole playerbase, at least 90% which of use Barkskin or Boon of Shallya.
You may feel comfy sitting in a cardboard box and you may prefer it to a house. But it doesn’t change the fact that it isn’t as good of a shelter as a house is. And most people would prefer to be in a house.
No, I don’t.
Natural Bond is trash and should be changed. There’s always better choice than Natural Bond.
If there’s no rework then it will still (rightfully) see barely any use, it will still be called a noob trap and it will still be complained about. And people will still make suggestions on how to improve it.
I understand it very well.
In a well-balanced game meta consists of things that are easiest to use, not necessarily the most powerful.
NB is neither easy to use nor powerful in any particular way. It’s just trash. It would fit in Vermintide 1, not here.
I haven’t played Vermintide 2 since beginning, but I’ve heard THP wasn’t always a thing but it was added in a certain update.
I assume Natural Bond was added into the game well before THP existed and it hasn’t been touched since then. THP was added, the rest of the game was balanced around it to compensate and THP became the meta for staying alive and therefore Natural Bond was rendered ineffective.
True. The problem is that Natural Bond sucks, so it’s not really a good option. Certainly never the best. Even if you emotionally feel otherwise
The thing is - I want to pick it. I want it to be good. But right not it’s just not. It needs some work.
you dont agree barkskin and boon of shallya is meta?
and as i said not everything can be meta and it is nice to have some niche weapons. The game shouldnt be buffed over and over only to satisfy a few people, especially if there are enough people whom fits theis playstyle, its a niche trait and in this niche it has indeed its value. If you dont want to have niche weapons/traits then you have to play a game with only 3 weapons and a handful of traits maybe pvp shooter with a standard loadout would satisfy you more.
so this dude isn’t hateful or anything, but god is it annoying to read people talk to a brickwall all day, wonder if should just blocklist and be done with it…
Putting aside the endless back and forth on whether or not there are niche cases for nat bond, there are probably some buffs we could all reasonably agree on?
What if it no longer converted but added to thp? Perhaps we could agree the limitations it applies to healing items aren’t necessary to be kept?
Apologies if someone has already argued against those changes I’ve skimmed a good portion of this thread.
And i never argued that melee never happens, i argued that there are downtimes in which neither boon nor barkskin generates any value at all.
That was not the argument.
Bond is superior if you get no value out of boon or barkskin, again, if i take little damage, do not take more than 1 hits at once and spend more time shooting ambients than going melee on em.
I have already gone through why barkskin is awful against all of those unless you are expecting near immediate help, in which case, it doesnt matter much 9 outa 10 times. A “proper” player doesnt stand inside gas, in puke,in fire, doesnt get caught by lone packmasters.
Skill issue, i do not hope, i do not.
I can heal teammates using bandages to clear my own grey status then just regen back to full (especially on waystalker with innate regen half the way as well), optionally, if they are all full then i ask one of them to do it instead. That´s 350+ healing value over a run.
The advantages i already stated are 0 given the premises established, the same ones you have kept ignoring while still telling me i wrong x)
Again, Barkskin can consistently generate 0 value, especially for a user that is already adept, that´s not peak performance.
On WS the majority uses boon, mainly because most people grab online guides from steam and the most upvoted by far is from Royale whom states :
BCR is way superior to stamina if you have enough shield to perform push. Extra health is critical.
With the high damage on Cataclysm, low HP pool character can’t survive two hits even with Barkskin . Use Boon of Shallya to get away from instant kill threshold faster.
This is quite possibly the biggest author of player guides for vermintide <.<
And before you start, i already established why one can get away with not using boon and thus why Bond can have value.
Why do i need to do this? Fatshark removed the vent damage by using a single good talent for pyro, i dont need to spend any notable health for it. On that note, Royalees words on Barkskin pyro.
BCR is way superior to stamina if you have enough shield to perform push. Extra health is critical.
With high THP farm speed, Barkskin is very decent for melee front line playstyle. If you struggle with farming THP or hit trade a lot, use Boon of Shallya .
Implied here, if you spend more time ranged, use boon, which in accordance to the premise i made to start with establishes the potential value of bond.
It does decay that fast, especially since i am rarely in melee since only a few ambients tend to ever reach melee range unless i want more of them to. And then my teammates kill them.
Again i already made the argument, 25% chance to refund a heal also means 75% chance of no value, never worth it for anyone sane. You might as well argue for Hand of Shallya. Especially given you basically need to use 4 heals to get 1 use out of it. That´s 4 heals for potentially no more than 75 extra health.
To mirror your style of argument, i have this issue, why is it not valid? And since i play WS and Pyro and kill 80% of the specials myself, especially so?
Good Pyro would just use the talent for no-cost venting and then blazing echo for crit-roll more fireballs than anything else could make. Refund chance is 50% and cooldown is as you noted, not too long. Low risk and highly rewarding to roll multiple fireballs.
That was never what i argued for, argument was that outside hordes, the ranged ones will be much less prone to, extremely so depending on build. Thus only NB generates any value consistently.
This premise is both against what i set as the original premise and crap, plenty of classes spend most of the time shooting as long as they do not get overrun first. You´ll never see a bounty hunter deliberately tossing his shotguns away to melee away at that chaos wave. You should see any waystalker deliberately putting hagbane away to run over and melee any big group. And so on.
Reduced the cooldown of the career skill ‘The Burning Head’ to 50 seconds.
Not so much that the THP doesnt fully decay unless she deliberately cease to shoot in order to melee outside hordes. That was the original argument as well.
Read it all if you´re gonna comment on it, please. Its a question asked in reply of a given context, context being a statement that implied that shooting more rather than going melee would lower the value of a ranged career.
And according to the established premise for my argument, one that yields 0 value too consistently and therefore is eclipsed by bond on the established premise. I never argued for all careers or all levels of skill.
Except they do not. The civilized worlds works off things that can be proven and anything that can not be is nothing but empty theories that collect dust.
Again, already established, you are ignoring the premise.
I do not need help to stay alive during pressure, what i wana do, is save on healing from chip damage.
No because in order to have NB be competitive at all with boon/Bark for majority of careers (mostly melee) then it´d have to be buffed crazy high. That´d break fundamentals of the game on higher difficulties that “healing is scarce&damage is bad”. THP already does that to a degree but with downsides to compensate.
Fatshark did play those too according to their latest balance work if you read it, and despite all the other crazy crap they added, between OE bomb build and the WP buffs and the “we wana nerf monster kills but also not” they skipped this. And they have always skipped it.
No, not that. I don’t agree that “NB has a good niche”. Because it doesn’t. It’s a trash trait and there’s always a better choice.
It’s hard to talk about ‘meta’ when you only have 5 choices.
Barkskin which for most people is the best. It’s protects you against multiple threats.
Boon of Shallya which is great at boosting THP generation.
Healer’s Touch which is an excellent choice if you can keep your HP capped with THP and don’t feel like you need a failsafe in form of Barkskin.
Hand of Shallya which no one uses because it’s stupidly situational and you’re more often going to benefit from HT more.
Natural Bond which is trash.
It’s not about being meta or not. It’s that Natural Bond is unreliable dead trait that should be reworked/buffed. People don’t use it. And they don’t use it not because it’s niche and situational, but because it’s garbage. That’s why people who use NB are seen as noobs.
I never said that. NB only needs a single buff or a rework and that’s it, it’s going to be good.
And it’s not to satisfy a few people. It’s a dead trait that almost no one uses. But it could be an useful alternative to Boon or Barkskin.
These people are either newbies or delusional people that are most often detrimental to the teamplay. They would be better off using other traits.
I don’t want to have things that could be fun and useful but aren’t because they’ve been added years ago and never touched since then, rendered trash by many game rebalances.
I want Natural Bond to be a good choice for many players instead of just a few braindead people who think they are onto some good, underused niche but in the end usually end up being more detrimental than helpful.
There is a reason why Natural Bond is deemed a noob trap.
There is a reason why people made suggestions to buff Natural Bond so many times.
There is a reason why almost no one uses it.
And that reason is the fact that Natural Bond is unreliable garbage and there is always a better choice.
And that’s why it should change.
No. Things like that shouldn’t start being viable after thousands of hours in the game.
Natural Bond should not be too weak or difficult to use.
It should be an interesting alternative to the other choices.
But it’s not because it’s garbage. And that’s why people don’t use it.
Boon always has value because it gives you the possibility of generating more THP if you need it in an emergency.
Barkskin always has value because it protects you against potential damage from many different sources.
Saying they don’t have vlaue is like saying that Natural Bond is worthless because you can have full HP and it won’t generate anything.
That’s stupid.
No. HT is superior if you don’t want Barkskin or Boon. NB is trash.
You you take little damage then:
a) you don’t need NB because… You take little damage. You don’t even need healing because you won’t die. Because you take little damage.
b) you can easily generate enough THP to fill the deficit, because you’re only lacking a little bit of HP.
???
What the f**k are you talking about?
Barkskin is amazing against all those. And that’s why like 90% of the playerbase uses Barkskin.
Have you missed that fact? Or maybe you consider them inferior morons that don’t know what’s best for them, including the most skilled players?
Barkskin is an amazing choice. That’s why it’s the most popular choice.
If you don’t, then you can just fill the deificit easily with THP. And that renders NB trash.
Still cannot use healing items properly.
Because you are wrong.
Barkskin always has value. It’s a failsafe.
That’s what failsafes are for.
You don’t get benefit from them all the time, only during emergency.
And the fact that most players use Barkskin really says something.
ditto
Most people I’ve seen take Barkskin on WS. Even on ranalds.gift most WS builds have Barkskin.
Barkskin’s main job isn’t to help you survive ‘two hits’ (althugh it does help with that), it’s a failsafe against disablers and damage-over-time/area-of-effect attacks.
I prefer Boon myself, just because it’s so good.
Value of NB is garbage. If you’re not using Boon, you’re always better off using Barkskin or HT.
And that’s why almost no one uses NB but everyone uses either Barkskin or Boon.
No. It says to use Boon because Boon is good.
Natural Bond is not, it’s trash. That’s why no meaningful guide recommends it.
It’s slow, replces your THP and doesn’t help you stay alive, unlike Boon and Barkskin.
That’s why almost no one uses Natural Bond.
Too bad no one else has had problem with decaying THP before. Literally everyone else uses Barkskin or Boon and they do just fine, better than they’d ever do with Natural Bond.
It’s definitely worth it. And that’s why I take. It helped out my team numerous times.
Hand of Shallya is good at… Replacing your own THP with GHP whenever you heal a teammate. Which is equally worthless. And you don’t get anything out of it if you’re already at full health anyway. Unlike with HT, which always has a chance to benefit you.
Because no one else has this (skill) issue and this suggestion was made to convince FS to rethink Natural Bond so it’s not a garbage dead trait that almost no one uses but instead a good alternative to Boon and Barkskin that many people would consider picking.
Nah. A good Pyro would simply build THP like literally everyone else and then use that THP for venting.
A good Pyro would also know that the talent you mentioned benefits from having enemies in melee range and not being a “backline ranged” player.
If every class is bound to melee at some point, then they should have no issues getting THP.
And also Barkskin always has value, because you can get caught by specials or other things that Barkskin protects against.
Damn… Why don’t these people take Natbond then but instead mock it for being a noob trap? Stupid morons, not good enough to see natbond’s true potential…
Makes sense now. “Lowers THE value”. I just couldn’t quite understand the sentence order.
Well, people go into melee with ranged classes all the time (and they have to, since it’s difficult to avoid it). And they do just fine. No one’s crying about ranged classes being lower value because they don’t shoot all the time.
But even if you did manage to avoid melee combat and virtually shoot all the time… Then what? Natural Bond is still not the best choice.
If you get hit a lot (even if you stay ranged all the time) then you NEED to generate THP. And Boon of Shallya helps with that.
Or you could take Barkskin to defend against potential disablers etc.
If you do not get hit a lot, then you don’t need to heal. Because you don’t get hit a lot. You’re not going to die. You don’t need healing at all.
Barkskin is always valuable, its value is in having a failsafe.
That’s why people take Barkskin and not Natural Bond.
Ask any legend/cata player what they think about Natural Bond users.
What is already estabilished is the fact that NB is garbage and almost no one uses it.
Unlike Barkskin, for example.
Which THP is better at.
No, it wouldn’t. I actually played with mods that buff NB and it never eclipsed other traits.
No it wouldn’t. It’d work fine. I know because I played with mods that buffed NB and it was perfecly fine.
They’ve ‘skipped’ dozens upon dozens of changes that mods make, improve the game and many people deem essential.
And they asked us to give them feedback. And that’s exactly what I’m doing here, in this topic.
If i do have enough THP generation speed when in melee then boon has no value, if i do not take several hits at once, then barkskin has no value, its simple, not stupid.
50 damage every 5 minutes is still little damage.
You are ignoring the premise for my argument, again. And as for my personal opinion, most people do not bother to use something like NB because the other two options are easier and more forgiving. And i mean, yes, better if one does regularly find themselves under high pressure.
I cannot, since i do not melee enough to do so outside hordes unless in a tunnel.
How is healing teammates and thus saving on healing, a not a proper use?
Indeed it does, that you are still ignoring the original premise of my arguments.
Subjective argument, i can argue the opposite and we get nowhere since neither can disprove the other. Except big steam guides suggesting boons.
The irony here is that no one uses HT either, and yet you argue its good all the same based on your experience, while its literally in its own text how unreliable&low value it is going to be on average. While in turn refusing to accept any argument that NB has any function for the specified cases.
Subjective still, i can argue that i have seen people use bond on both WS and Pyro, and others, and done well. You cant disprove except going "No i dont think so .< " and thus we still get nowhere.
Wasnt it you who argued that taking damage is inevitable at any rate for most which is why barkskin&boon are so good? If so, why wouldnt hand be good since it adds value when healing teammates by also healing yourself a bit?
Still staying subjective and likely still outside the premise, argue with facts rather than emotions and whims.
80% damage off from venting base damage is in practice, basically 0 damage, even with extremely low THP generation or just NB. That´s the idea.
I argued that outside hordes they wont have that THP, which makes the ability to restore actual health without spending healing, more precious.
Now you arent even arguing the point, instead just being silly.
People were crying over both engineer and pyro ,that´s what prompted the reworks/buffs…
And this is the part of the issue, you take everything to the extreme.
Not getting hit a lot can be “getting hit every 2 minutes for 10-20 damage” Barkskin will have no value and outside hordes i wont have the THP generation to offset the damage.
Why would i desire a failsafe that i cant use? And if being subjective as you like, over a healing option that has proven functional in use for me? And others?
The “community feedback” is what resulted in abominations like the recent WP buffs + engineer bomb build. It previously resulted in stuff like Demigod battlewizard that was way worse than SOT ever was.
In addition, you’ve had a few already in this thread alone arguing that they like it and get value from it, that is also an indicator.
Subjective opinion, again.
“Improve the game” is a highly subjective term once again, we’ve had people on the forums suggesting that buffing WHC, UC and Zealot and elf hagbane of all things is a good idea.
Someone had those opinions, does that make them good? Or is it just someone’s subjective ideas that just cause powercreep if done?
True. That’s when you take Barkskin, because it’s an excellent damage mitigator.
And that’s why most people take it.
You can generate that much THP as a ranged class and maintain it without any significant hit to your ranged role that’d be detrimental to the mission.
Most people (or rather almost all people) don’t bother using something like NB because it’s garbage and the other two options are always better.
Natural Bond changes how healing items work.
It makes them give you THP, which is the type of health you struggle with maintaining because it decays.
And that means NB makes healing items objectively worse. It’s a drawback.
Because they get hit often and prefer using Boon or Barkskin to be safe. HT is good for people who can maintain THP without Boon and also feel consider without the failsafe that Barkskin is. Like me, at least on Legend.
But most people do not. And that’s why Barkskin and Boon are such good choices.
NB has function. And it can help. It’s just garbage and there’s always better choice.
And that’s why people don’t take NB, they take Barkskin or Boon of Shallya.
I don’t see guides for WS or Pyro recommending NB. I do see them recommending Barkskin and Boon of Shallya, though. And that’s because they are objectively better choices.
No, because Hand of Shallya just changes the color of your HP. And if you already have full GHP then it doesn’t benefit you.
I’ve had people hand me a healing draft, just for me to drink it and hand it back immediately afterwards, thanks to HT. I just sip it.
No. People do not moan about THP decay and take NB. They do just fine generating THP while playing Boon or Barkskin.
You want facts? People use Barkskin and Boon of Shallya. Almost no one uses Natural Bond. That’s a fact.
80% damage off from venting base damage is in practice basically 20% damage. THP always helps. Especially when you get hit. And people get hit. That’s why they need THP. And that’s why they take Boon of Shallya and Barkskin.
You get hordes on cata like how often, every minute or two? There’s no time for THP to decay on cata. You’d know that if you played cata.
Yes, I am being silly about it. It’s called sarcasm.
The way OE’s ult worked was the issue. It was supposed to be his main weapon, but it requires space to be used properly. Which means his teammates had to make sure he has space to do anything meaningful.
It’s not that OE didn’t shoot all the time. It’s that OE couldn’t shoot reliably because if he did and he got hit, all the stacks and windup were lost. That’s why they made it so you don’t lose all the stacks upon firing.
No. I take the scenarios you present.
Barkskin’s job isn’t to help you with stray hits. I already listen what Barkskin helps with, multiple times. And it’s extremely good at what it does. That’s why it has incredible value. And that’s why it’s the most popular trait.
Except on cata there’s hordes so often you won’t have your THP decay in any significant way.
Can’t? Doesn’t it work for you? It’s supposed to shield you from multiple damage sources in an emergency.
NB can be functional for you. But you’ll always have a better option. Unless you can avoid all the damage sources that Barkskin defends against, can build enough THP to sustain yourself and also don’t care about helping the team out with HT.
But that’s just you. A single raisin, a tiny promile of the playerbase. FS shouldn’t cater to you.
FS should make it so NB is good for much more people. Right now it’s garbage.
Nah, that makes no sense. FS knew something should be done about OE for example, but no one asked for bomb generation.
No one asked for daggers nerf either.
Literally 2 other people. For whom other traits would still have been a better choice. Compare that to the amount of people who dislike Natural Bond and don’t use it. It’s like comparing an ant to a whale.
The fact that I played mods that fixed NB is a fact. Not an opinion.
Yes, it is. But it’s objective when enough people agree with it.
And enough people agree with javelin nerf, for example.
The fact that almost no one uses NB is not a subjective idea.
If NB is so good, then why don’t people use it? Why do people mock it? Why do they call it noob trap?
And when i do not take repeated hits, bark has no value either.
Subjective, skill and loadout dependent.
Subjective unless talking outside the premise.
Bond doesnt make you unable to heal others, if you got bond and use medkit on someone they still get fully healed and you get cleared off grey if you got it. And they can still use medkits to heal you too
The irony is killing me.
Except its the best if you dislike awfully unfavorable RNG and have no use for boon or bark. Or feel that 1 extra heal per match isnt worth it.
Because guides are tailored towards those that need them, newbies mainly.
The guides will always suggest what is generally the safest and easiest to use, they will rarely if ever, tailor towards individuals.
And i´ve had entire games with it giving me exactly nothing, in spite of repeat use, which is entirely reasonable given 75% chance of failure.
Because majority of players that you consistently argue for do not play WS or Pyro, and of those that do, most lack the skill to consistently avoid damage and even then many just use boon anyways because its simple and forgiving.
20% damage that is about equal to…2-3 damage per full vent or such? Hit one tiny rat once, possibly twice, and its not a loss in spite of not being anywhere near much. That much even i can manage.
Every 3-4 minutes unless doing something like horde-scripted event-horde. Or i guess, if the clearing speed is particularly slow.
My point exactly, rather than argue the point you respond with sarcasm that contains nothing else.
Which in turn meant, most OE’s couldnt shoot reliably without a goon squad , which made for a lot of unhappy engineers, so they made the minigun more accessible so he could shoot more easily.
And they literally did not change how pressure works in terms of the base stacks decay and whatnot, the main change on that side was reworking the functionality of the talents a little and made it so he can crank even with a full bar, so he didnt have to shoot the air to empty it out to crank to maintain stacks.
I say “little damage” you take that as “nearly half or more of someone’s health”.
And i responded with why it generally sucks for those who are squishy unless help is near instant. Mathematically possible to prove this one too for disablers. Take a basic waystalker with maxed gear and 120 health. 1 assassin and 3 gors catch her on the side of a horde. Assassin does 15 damage instantly and then 12(6 per hit) each second with barkskin, gors will do about 36 damage each.
In a single round of attacks, the WS will have lost 135 health, with barkskin applied. She´s down. The difference comes in living a bit longer while downed but…this still relies on teammates saving her then, and having full health to start with.
Other specials? Why would i stand inside the proverbial fire and do nothing?
Not without running into melee a whole lot, mind you i tend to have teammates who are also attacking, possibly also shooting, everything in sight. Enemies are usually in short supply outside hordes.
I cant since the only times i die is when i mess up badly or the team gets completely overrun.
And why should they carter over you? In this thread alone i believe you have faced about equal opposition to the idea of just outright buffing it? Or at least that is has no use?
See that´s the thing, people ask for general stuff like “OE better” and suddenly we got him able to use trollhamer without FF damage and generating bombs. We got WP buffed and so on.
Subjective-
Subjective, you argue that it fixed NB in your view but that doesnt make it a universal truth, i could argue that the sky is green and that´d just be my view, perhaps even truthful if i had some manner of colorblindness.
So SoT&BW should be reverted, javelins and moonbow as well? 'cause enough people agree with it?
Because NB is indeed generally not good for newbies or even average peeps on legend/cata, they lack the skills to not need bark or boon to make do.Infact, many need need either of those two to actually make do at all. Buff NB to the point where even they can use it without issue and its broken. Basing a balance judgement of “the average cant easily use it so it sucks” is a horrendous idea. It results in buffs that makes things overpowered in the hands of remotely skilled users. Particularly visible in MOBA enviroments.
Added to thp wouldnt give you much cause thp is meant to decay, it would maybe decay slower but it still wouldnt feel worth it.
Added as an shield if you gain overheal thp - would be some kind of broken, its an power creep if the shield is too much. I only would go for 10-20thp overheal shield, not more. It would help tanks to tank overheads on cata and squischies to eat 1 more hit, but it needs you to be on full thp. I still dont like the idea because for me it wouldnt replace the value of nb it would be rather meant as an additional necklace trait. Also i fear even this idea would push the powercreeep. So at the end i just want to stay at status quo.
And of course the thp overheal shield should be able to decay like normal thp.
Yeah. But you cannot predict whether you’re going to take repeated hits or not. It’s impossible.
No, it’s not subjective. You can generate that much THP as a ranged class and maintain it without any significant hit to your ranged role that’d be detrimental to the mission.
And that’s what everyone does.
No, most people (or rather almost all people) don’t bother using something like NB because it’s garbage and the other two options are always better.
That’s why they take one of the other two options.
Bond makes it so you cannot use healing items on yourself to get GHP. And that’s an undeniable disadvantage.
Irony of what?
I don’t see any irony in it.
You may dislike HT. But it’s still a better choice.
Nope, there are guides for advanced players too.
Also no, guides will generally suggest what is the best choice.
That’s why NB pretty much never gets recommended.
And yet that’s still better than NB. Crazy.
Uhh… Are you suggesting that I somehow magically do not play with WS or Pyro in my team? I actually do.
Doesn’t that… Just reinforce the argument that most people take damage and because of that NB is never the best, if even a good choice for them?
And even if they can avoid taking damage, Barkskin and HT are still better choices.
NB does not get picked, period.
HT is a niche trait that a handful of people are willing to make work and benefit the team greatly.
NB is a garbage trait that most often gets picked by people who are detrimental to the team.
Or you could also just generate THP and use it to vent and save a talent point.
Even if so, I have never heard anyone crying or suffering from THP decay. Because it’s not an issue.
If it was a significant issue, you’d have more people taking NB to mitigate it. But almost no one ever uses NB. You’ll find more people talking against using NB than recommending it.
That’s because NB is trash and it’s never the best choice.
The sarcasm was supposed to make you think. I am sorry it failed to achieve its effect.
Yep. And now I’m trying to get them to do the same thing to NB.
Oh, they absolutely did change how pressure works in terms of base stacks decay.
I haven’t tried every build yet, but with my build (Superior Gaskets) I do not lose all the stacks when firing the weapon, but rather a single stacks starts to decay over the course of a few seconds, during which I can keep shooting and it’ll all still cost me just a single stack.
Also literally:
So uh, you’re wrong.
Not getting hit a lot can be “getting hit every 2 minutes for 10-20 damage” Barkskin will have no value and outside hordes i wont have the THP generation to offset the damage.
Barkskin is always valuable. It saves you from multiple sources of damage, like disablers.
And you WILL get caught. EVERYONE gets caught, including you. If you don’t get caught, then you probably belong to 0.01% elite of the playerbase and NB changes are irrelevant to you, because they are meant to cater to the majority of the playerbase and not 0.01% elite who never gets disabled.
Natural Bond is almost unused. There is always a better choice. And most people who use NB are detrimental.
That alone is why it has to change.
No, it does not suck for squishy classes. It’s amazing for squishy classes, that’s literally why it’s the most important trait in the game among people who play squishy classes. Almost everyone takes Barkskin, if not Boon of Shallya.
And again - you always take the extreme case scenario. That’s a screwup even the mighty NB won’t save you from.
But Barkskin ABSOLUTELY can (and does) save you from scenarios where you get caught by a disabler and it makes you stay alive for longer so the team can rescue you.
Or scenario where you get bombarded with gas or vomit or find yourself in oil fire, or get caught in a blightstorm, or get fired upon by friendlies. Barkskin is a great choice for squishy classes because it helps them mitigate damage from a ton of different sources. And that’s why people take Barkskin and not NB.
Yeah. And Barkskin helps in living a bit longer while downed. And that’s why people take it. And not NB. Because in most cases NB doesn’t help you live a little longer. It just replaces your THP with GHP.
You, much like all other players, are going to eventually find yourself in fire. You cannot say “Oh, this match I will definitely not be in the middle of a field of fire that oil barrel or Stormfiend has created”. They will have Barkskin and will walk out of it while you potentially fall down like a house made of cards that NB turns you into.
If you are good enough to rarely get into cata (which is extremely unlikely) and also have a team which can always keep any enemy out of your melee distance (which is also extremely unlikely) then you are a super-duper ultra Vermintide 2 player who has most likely spent several thousand hours on the game and can deal with just about any threat (which seems kinda unlikely to me, especially if you’re a NB user xd). If that’s the case, then you don’t belong to the majority of the playerbase. And these changes aren’t specifically for you. NB changes are meant to cater to majority of the playerbase.
Everyone in cata has to melee. Everyone in cata gets damaged. Everyone in cata gets caught by disablers. That’s just the way it is.
Well, if you are a god at Vermintide 2, then I suppose that’s true.
But most people - even cata players - aren’t god at Vermintide 2 that can always dodge any special. And that’s why they take Barkskin. Or they take Boon so they can more easily rebuild the HP that they inevitably lose, even as ranged classes. They don’t take NB though, because it’s trash.
Because unlike you I am not a god and I’m more like majority of the playerbase. I get hit, I get caught, I get downed. Just like everyone else (except you). And because of that Barkskin and Boon of Shallya are great choices that benefit me.
Two people huffing copium, ignoring the fact that it’s a weak, dead trait.
Try Googling “Vermintide 2 Natural Bond” and see if the results is people recommending NB left and right in their guides or people complaining about it being underpowered, doubting or asking if it’s really worth it and suggesting changes to it.
And then Google “Vermintide 2 Boon of Shallya”. It’s mostly people asking whether Boon of Shallya or Barkskin is better (for them).
Yeah… And?
That’s literally why I made this topic. Just so they notice it and make NB actually good.
Who- What-
I said that there’s been literally 2 people who are trying to keep NB an unfun, dead, detrimental trait and you… Call a number subjective?
What.
No, the mods literally fixed NB. It was good; it wasn’t over the top, it wasn’t still underpowered. It was a good (but not always the best) choice for many classes. Just like it should be in the base game.
Not enough people agree with it. More people wanted them nerfed. The nerfs were good and the game is better because of it.
Well, it should be. That’s the whole point of the suggestion.
Maybe I am being ridiculous, but I don’t want a trait that only becomes a good option after 1000h of experience with the game.
And that’s… Literally what they are for. That’s why they take them. And they don’t take NB. Almost no one takes NB. Except for people who like shooting themselves in the foot and still managing to do fine, even if they don’t believe they’re shooting themselves in the foot.
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh… No?
Just buff/rework NB to the point where it’s balanced and a viable option and much like BS or BoS is the best choice in many scenarios. It is possible. People have done it with mods, you know.
Vast majority of the playerbase does not use NB. Not because “they can’t easily use it” but because it just sucks. It’s an underpowered trait. Other traits are just so much better.
So you’re saying that… When there’s a thing in a game that no one ever uses because it sucks over other options, when the developers buff the thing, most of the time (if not always) it becomes ridiculously OP to the point where players more familiar with the game can just ruin it?
I don’t know about that.
I don’t see skilled cata players taking NB either. They just take BS or BoS. They don’t even consider NB because it sucks ass.
No but i can look at my own gameplay and take note of what is the average.
It is subjective, its entirely your opinion with nothing to back it up. I could argue that you will never have any THP because you´ll have teammates that sweep practically all the ambients out and run ahead nonstop and i´d have equally much basis for that.
One word against the others, empty.
How is it a disadvantage when my health is constantly at half GHP at the lower average but mostly near full and increasing?
On one hand you state that NB sucks because no one uses it, on the other you acknowledge that no one uses anything but NB&bond and state that HT is defo good anyway because you like it. In spite of it having an explicitly stated 75% chance of failure every single time with nothing to mitigate damages of said fails.
That´s the exact same thing i am doing with NB but specified for fringe cases.
Subjective and mathematically disproven. HT needs 4 heals used on average for 1 extra, that´s awful on cata. NB gives 200 health by itself over an average run and lets you medpack someone else.
Find me one that is explicitly aimed at veteran players, like cata veterans specifically. Or its just empty talk.
Your bias isnt just severe, its extreme.
0 benefit vs self regen, even if low, when you have no other needs and NB is worse. Right.
You have thus far based nearly all your arguments on an overall basis rather than the premise i set, while also ignoring set premise whenever it suited you.
Subjective, your word against the wind with no proof.
Which means i gotta run around in melee and thus not use the staves, that´s just going back to melee pyromancer running off high crit rather than the ranged perks.
That´s exactly the thing, you you you you you, you base all your arguments of yourself with no proof or anything to back it up. Even when its its possible with numbers to prove why one of your arguments doesnt hold well you still keep going.
The sarcasm added nothing to the discussion that hasnt already been stated, nor did it disprove the statement it was made against. It simply highlighted your complete and utter unwillingness to consider the merits and think about it.
Which in turn is a terrible mistake given the condition for NB to become viable on “average”.
That 1 by 1 decay style is literally half the change that was made specifically to superior gaskets, the other two…or ah, they added the old experimental capacitors on as the new base operation. My bad, used that one too much and got the idea it was the default.
Cartering to the majority of the playerbase is a hilarious proposition when majority are playing veteran and champion…if i remember some stream Fatshark did showing a graph of player distribution. Only 2-3% of players even reach cata to begin with. And NB is good in lower difficulties where enemies do basically no damage even if you get hit. So even with that low-ass regen the enemies cant kill the targets.
If we are to balance around the true average player then we ought to buff both boon and Barkskin a lot since Bond is too powerful on lower difficulties, it practically regenerates all damage that enemies can do short of showering under overheads!
Hmm? Balance around average cata players? While ignoring majority of the playerbase? Nah.
It makes no real difference, you take 130+ damage per second with Barkskin in such a spot. If we are talking surviving beyond that, you can take one extra round of attacks while downed before you drop fully dead. That´s 1 second in terms of time difference, assuming you get help at all and do not get like, packmaster-dragged into a dense horde. Or pinned by an assassin just before an overhead lands.
That´s why Royalee in his guides suggested to take boon, because when that happens majority are generally toast anyhow and boon will help more on average.
“They take several procs of damage from gas, vomit, self inflicted oil barrels and whatnot”
This is just indication that on average, people arent good, and it should be pretty simple to think that balancing around them, wont be good either. Cant be done without warping the fundamentals.
It possibly helps a little bit longer, situational, very situational.
The premier case being that the player either isnt good at dealing with specials so they get caught a lot or, the situation is so messed up that they cant avoid it. The second case kinda dies no matter what anyway.
I have never, not even once, died to an oil barrel, or even a stormfiend except actually getting knocked off cliffs/ledges by them due to that feature where if they are turning but also switching aggro some melee attacks can come out instantly, troll&spawn also does it at times.
Stormfiends are more dangerous towards their own “allies” than the players, unless said players are trying to huddle in a corner somewhere.
That means balancing for veteran, then we ought to turbobuff both Barkskin and boon because it´s too weak down there. And also nerf NB because it covers the very minimal damage anything does.
A good craftsman does not blame his tools, he picks the right ones for the job <.<
If you play cata you are already a god relative to the vast majority of the playerbase, welcome to the club.
What happened to WP and to a lesser degree, OE, was not “making good”, it was powercreep, flat out powercreep, mixed with some QoL updates.
Exactly, you said, nothing else, subjective.
Subjective, your opinion, also, what mods?
The same people that wanted WP buffed because “too clunky” for them, the same people that got a big topic stating the reworked shade was “weak” because she needed to parry. The same people that once campaigned for SoT nerfs(justified) while ignoring battlewizard being comfortable to solo cata FoW with…Lemme tell ya a little something, most people that play the game lower difficulties and have strong personal preference dictating their opinions for them without much thought behind it.
On the contrary, it should not, because anytime bond reaches the “majority” it then has become overpowered.
This is a perfectly valid point, however, perspective. Bond must never be good for the majority or it breaks the fundamentals. Just like WP&OE.
Sujective, your personal opinion that does not at all accomodate for the experiences of others.
What mods? Tourney mod doesnt do it and core doesnt do it.
No, i am saying that if there´s something that say, only 10% can use but its powerful for them, then buffing it to the point where say 60% can use it results in it overpeforming not just for the original 10% but more like 40% instead. That results in the game being warped around whatever this was that got buffed. Just what like we now see with OE for instance.
Because NB cant be kept in a state where it´s unquestionably good, it´d warp the game, and in spite of your ever so subjective opinions, no proof to the contrary whilst it only takes a thought to realize that if the entire team regenerates say 40-50 green health per two minutes then that kinda breaks VT2 operations of higher difficulties.
But ah, you didnt wana carter to the minor % was it? Well well, go ahead and ask for it to be buffed as so, i doubt the veterans will notice and the champs will take it as their que to become legends.
