The state of Armor Piercing

Oh don’t worry about that, I actually completely agree with you on Rapier too…

And I ACTUALLY know how this big circle jerk started… detailed in my comments on THIS thread…

It was a chain reaction of pointless nerfs that completely hosed up the balance between ALL of Saltzpyres weapons… leaving only one left… which of course is WHY you wanted the Falchion Nerfed so bad,…

Otherwise you wouldn’t be saying jack diddly squat about the Falchion… and would realize it was perfectly balanced in the first place… until the other nerfs both accidental and intentional hosed up the entire balance between the weapons.

Maybe it would help if the weapons would all be turned into a niche weapon with maybe exaggerated stats.
An axe does hilarious headshot damage + armor pierce but doesn’t really cleave. A halberd becomes a really stabby long range melee weapon but loses any piercing abilities if a charged attack cleaves through enemies. Shield combos may be the by far best staggering weapons and daggers/rapiers get an innate crit-chance boost. Just some not serious meant examples but maybe you get the idea.
If there are no allrounder weapons any weapon may have a reason to exist because of it’s utility.

Except you could still use the rapier.
Except that you could still use the Axe.
And I guess Flail, but Flail doesnt feel right on someone else than Zealot and after the att speed nerf on his ability, not even that anymore.

The reason why this circle jerk started is not because they nerfed the Rapier sideweapon.
It started because they LISTENED to the cretins complaining about the Rapier sideweapon.

Now i have youre word against the words off several youtubers, some of them studying HEMA and old fighting treatises, with video proofs and links to their sources.
How about that. You give me some more infos on youre Falchion. How long is it, how much does it weight and how big is the blade. Then some infos on the chainmail. How thick are the chains? Riveted or buttet?
How was the setup of youre cutting test. Did the chainmail have a bit space to move? Where did you strike it? How thick was the steel plate you were cutting? Of course a video would be perfect.

@Orpheus1772
How did the Falchion actually get nerfed? When i used it last time (3 days ago) it was really good. What did they change?

Because nobody is replying to my suggestion

I guess i was right and nobody likes my idear :smiley:

Something about the AP damage, but I have to be honest I dont follow the recent patches anymore, since its basically pleasing the crowd instead of actually getting a healthy base game mechanic.
Continuing the discussion from Vermintide 2 - Patch 1.0.7 and 1.0.7.1:

I dont know - removing armoured enemies just removes variety for me, block angles and block in general is bugged anyway and I dont know what you mean with friendlies stopping projectiles.

@Orpheus1772
Not removing them only less armored enemys :smiley:
In V1 with higher difficulty you got the same enemys who just dealt more damage. In V2 you get more elites the higher the difficulty is. That makes ap weapons on higher difficulty extremly important. But i think they should increase the difficulty with other methods than with just throwing armoured enemys at you.
And with frindlys stopping projectiles i mean youre range attacks get stuck in friendlys.
How would this help?
In some situations it would make horde clearing more difficult because you might not get a clear line to shot on the enemys => horde clearing melee weapons get more important

Absolutely,

The Alt-Fire on the Rapier has a 2-3 second reset on it, so you’re not going to rack up some enormous kill total running around shooting things. You can kill more just with the melee strikes as they’re a lot faster.

There was no reason to nerf the Alt-Fire on the Rapier to that extent.

And EVEN back in Beta no Saltzpyre job was racking up enormous amounts of kills (other than perhaps Bounty Hunter)

So all the nerfs were pointless and only served to weaken the overall Saltzpyre character in comparison to other characters. And hosed up the balance of the Saltzpyre weapons as a whole.

After the Axe lost its cleave in 1.05 no one used it anymore because it literally got you killed in a Horde. Prior it wasn’t the best horde weapon, but at least it was passable.

The Falchion was the tweener weapon which was better in a horde than the Axe, but not nearly as good on Armored targets but still passable… well until they recently nerfed this one and removed almost all its armor piercing… so no longer any smooth transition between weapons.

The Rapier after the Beta Alt-Fire Nerf was ONLY good in a horde at that point and useless on Shield Users. And required Charged Shots on Armored targets, and then ONLY the Headshots worked.

The Smooth Transition between all of these weapons which was perfect in Beta… is now broken.

And as to where before it used to be you could pick whichever weapon you needed for a specific type of mission or group playstyle… But that was all broken by these pointless nerfs that have completely hosed up the balance between them all now.

Of course, my bad, not removing but even less, seems boring to me - there is literally no challenge to normal enemies, SVs or shielded troops you encounter occasionally spice the whole thing up.

Considering even after they nerfed FF on legend it still hurts like hell, you shouldnt try to hit friendlies anyway.

Horde clearing right now is easy as hell anyway and the problem arent the hordes but the specials/bosses that might or might not spawn with them.

I feel like maps in general should be more interactive, for example why do we still dont have a boss arena where you can use levers or rocks or whatever to damage enemies?
You can only do so much with a handful of different enemy models to keep people playing.

?
Rapier is the only weapon (I think?) able to hit shield users with the thrusting strong attack, which in itself is super strong on WHC

Remember the times in VT1 a SV patrol striked fear into your hearts? Mostly because they had a relative large healthpool and they were armored.
But with the amount of AP weapons VT2 offers Fatshark went with “bigger and more” introducing shielded SVs and Chaos Warriors.
I have to admit: As I saw the first gameplay trailers where they fought CWs I really thought they would be like slower and meaner rat ogres: Every CW like a boss. But they turned out to be the replacement for the VT1-SVs.
I wish the individual mob would be harder again while reducing the overall mob count. If AP weapons would then be specialized in killing armored enemies while being bad at cleaning hordes … I could live with that.

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So i guess the only way to make anti horde weapons more viable is in making hordes more dangerous.
At least if you don’t want to just make all weapons armour penetrating or all ap weapons trash at dealing with hordes.

I actually don’t think that the amount of ap weapons is the reasons why sv patrols are so easy to deal with.
Mostly when my team wipes out a sv patrol it is because of bombs and active abillitys, like the one bounty hunter has for example.
If you don’t have enough bomb, abillitys or room to constantly dash backwards they are still really dangerous in my opinion.

The problem is, they are already really dangerous, it still angers me how a god damn skaven slave with a shitty club can take 1/3 of my HP bar because scaling WHEN they hit you, but what can you do? Double the amount of slaves that spawn in a horde? Add more specials that are already extremely annoying in hordes because hooks will just grab you through the frontline, globs 360° no scope hitting you behind walls and assassins pinning you down because dodge is useless with the current hitboxes if you dont have a %dodge range increase talent?

And thats why I cant give FS flak for this, its really hard to come up with a proper balance - enemies stacking in themselves, spawning INSIDE you when they climb from a wall you are hugging and generally ignoring dodge ranges and blocks … THATS something I can critize though and should be fixed asap, though.

Waveclear is just as important, I would say even more important. Take 2h or 1h axe, Flail, Kerillian 1h Sword, Executioner sword, Pick. Theses weapons have good AP, but are not being used, since they lack waveclear. On the other hand 2 Swords, Spear, Kerillian 2h Sword, even regular one - these weapons see some use. Not as much, mostly for lulz, but still. So waveclear seems to be a little more important.

But most of the time you just choose weapons, that are good at both, since why not? Especially since AP weapons are better at clearing waves than non-AP thanks to stagger, with the exception of Spear and Kerillian 2h sword to some extend.

Idk about coincidence - looks like it was intentional, in a sense that AP weapons need good stagger to deal with stagger-proof armored foes, so they have plenty of it (what a poor design). See the stats for yourself: link.

Axe, Falchion, Flail, Glaive, Axe n Shield, Great Axe, Hammer/Mace, 2h Hammer, Sienna mace, Halberd - all these weapons have good default stagger values. Only non-AP weapons, that has good default stagger, are Daggers and Spear. By good I mean anything, that is bigger than 2, since from my experience even 2.32, a common breakpoint, is already good enough for comfortably dealing with the foes. The default value for most weapons is 1.72 though, and on Legend you can’t stagger nothing with such it.

i think the main problem with the argument that most melee weapons being unable to cleave is missing one important aspect: players need to balance their loadouts with talents and a ranged weapon.

it’s easy to say that a melee weapon on it’s own is not as effective because it has no armor pen, but when paired together with ranged weapons that can take out armor, you’re running a well balanced build (light weapons for horde, ranged for armor)

take the shade for instance, the lighter weapons enable her to build her ability really really fast, falling back on ability usage or xbow to take out armor or shred bosses. for BH, the falchion and axe isn’t a good weapon to deal with horde, but the rapier can easily kill slave rats quickly for another free volley 3shot or repeater burst, and can just be spammed easily to defend against being surrounded.

on their own, light weapons are tough to use because of the armor spam in legend, definitely.

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As far as I know damage charges the ability, not attack speed, which maker this argument faulty.

not true, try resourceful combatant on a glaive vs a sword and dagger on a horde. glaive should do overall more dps, but snd still builds a lot faster, because getting multiple crits in a short span of time on multiple mobs will shoot up your ability meter really quickly (less than 10 secs) glaive can’t do the same, ability generation is much slower.

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So how does this work then? Do crits give a flat amount of ult charge? Because it’s either that, or number of hits. Nothing else can increase the charging speed.

It gives you flat 2% base CD reduced for each target hit by tour critical swing (for example, you crit with SnS and cleave 3 clanrats, you’ll have 2% reduction for each rat, base ultie CD is 60 sec, so your reduction will be 6% from 60 sec base equals 3.6 sec reduction), so it affects by number of hits (attack speed + cleave).

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That makes sense then, thanks. But what about damage and/or regular hits?

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