aight I don’t wanna derail this any further because you’re somewhat moving goal posts now lol
all I gotta say is your experience with GK is very different to what mine has been
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They are? Any random hit from a normal mob still chunks his health if he didnt use a heavy just a second or two before. Or he´s able to shrugg off hits from elites but nothing else, both of these are conditional with far from perfect uptime and aside from the big hammer, how many of his weapons really just wana spam heavies nonstop? Heck, even the hammer wants to use light attacks for best armor clear or boss damage.
Why is “Virtue of the joust” core of the whole class? Its almost entirely defensive in nature aside from a few weapons like Mace&sword that potentially benefit from exceptionally high stamina regen. Stoiscism is a viable pick if you attack more than you defend, especially with stamina regen on your trinket.
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I find it strange that you´d say GK cant make space as well as Merc or WHC, his default clearing speed is higher than both of theirs when built with intent to clear. Their specialties are much more supportive on average, particularly merc.
As for “making space” via shouts i mean sure, that horde of mixed armor and shields will recoil for a second or two but it doesnt actually bring it down. At worst all it does is stall the ones on you already causing the ones behind to catch up and increase the density even more. That´d be why BW and Unchained are much more deadly in a dense melee, firepower commin’ through.
Imo yep. Both careers are not perfect about this aspect, indeed I consider them a kind of glass cannon, but for sure Slayer’s ones are better: real damage reduction talents
Because, since GK misses shout, leap and dash, he really needs to make space with pushes. We can make cool build with Stoicism too… but still it’s not a damage reduction, works different, it’s less efficient
This is a complicated discussion, I honestly don’t feel like dealing with it as it should be dealt with… but, briefly, ‘making space’ is not the pivotal point, but one of the factors influencing survivability
Now, speaking for example of Merc, it is true that he probably creates less space with weapons than GK… but the shout is literally a lifesaver in desperate conditions, something that makes the difference between life and death. To this should be added other factors that contribute to survivability, such as more reliable damage reduction and better tHealth regen
Then, if we return to the Slayer, that was the main point, it’s obvious how the leap, between mobility, stagger, attack speed, grants definitely more options
Or again the WP, that overshadows GK in every single aspect
That’s my personal hill where die: GK is underpowered. Way more fragile than most melee careers… but not enough damage to compensate. Specially after the last DISGUSTING nerf. But I repeat, would be too long to compare every melee character to him… honestly I don’t have time nor will
no, its fine. stagger was broken before. 3 hits with L1 on horde with s+m would fill the entire bar for Hunstman. Now you have to sometimes block and avoid unnecessary damage. shields still great with stagger thp too.
I’ve spent a lot of time playing GK, probably over 300 hours out of my 3000+ in the game, and one thing that’s always stood out is the sheer power of his talent tree. For a time, I ran without a shield, using the Greatsword and Bret Sword as a kind of “Witcher” meme build, and it actually worked because of how much THP you could generate off stagger alone.
Even after the recent Stagger THP nerfs, GK still holds up. You can now get solid THP from the other two THP talents, cleaving through multiple enemies, or getting kills, which works well with offensive weapons. Despite nerfing the old push-attack spam moves on Bretshield / Push-Heavy1 on regular shield, his raw power and crowd-clearing ability still let him survive just fine without a shield in most situations.
In fact, in modded difficulties Cata3 DWONS, GK is widely regarded as one of, if not the, top damage dealers.
Before the nerf, it was borderline broken: you could spam the Bret Shield’s push-attack or push-heavy1 in thick hordes and go from 1 HP to full THP (180+) in about 10-15 seconds, all while controlling space and knocking back everything in front of you. That kind of sustain was insane, especially paired with his burst damage.
I was thinking, in Darktide, toughness-enhancing talents give frontline roles more defined durability. It might make sense to bring something similar into Vermintide 2. Perhaps an innate ability offering a THP bonus for tanks like Ironbreaker, Foot Knight, or Warrior Priest when wielding a shield. These careers are built to absorb pressure, so giving them a more reliable way to sustain through THP would help reinforce their identity.
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I think it’s a typical case of “people got used to it being OP, now proper balance feels weak.”
While the massive temp HP possible with shield bashes, fire sword H1, and reaper blade special were certainly fun, they were also way overtuned. It led to me playing very recklessly when using those weapons. It feels more balanced now.
Uhhh, Bretonian S&S which can do a double shield bash doesn’t make enough space for you?! Not to mention blocking flamers.
Love this idea!
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I don’t agree. I mean, for sure he’s good, you can use him at any difficulty… but the ratio squishyness/dmg dealt is not well balanced and careers like WP overshadows him (to be clear: on paper GK has more damage. But, given WP high damage resistance, he has much larger windows to attack, more situations from which it can survive… and thus the overall dps increases)
But to say, another quick example, you use the horizontal slash of the sacred blade in a mixed horde… maybe with a group of Monks and SVs… and you often barely kill 2-3 of them, it’s so sad!
The damage of the sacred blades double hit towards bosses, especially after the nerf to the cooldown (and I use it with the combo “potion regen talent” + tripot), is too low… using WP and ignorantly hammering the boss, I do more damage
The same against a CW patrol. With WP you start hammering. Do you take the first damage? Shield > auto heal > keep hammering using the invincibility period. You will have killed more CWs than with GK + double hit ult + pot + tripot… and above all remaining completely safe!
I’ll stop here, we agree to disagree
Imho nope, do you want to compare it to a leap or a dash? And in any case, let us remember that “creating space” is only a single factor. I also talked about other things, such as the absence of damage reduction
Then sure, great the immunity from fire, shame though that you get staggered like the hell anyway
You’re saying a lot of things that are simply false.
You can wipe out about 3/4 of a patrol reliably. It has infinite cleave and no cap on damage. This implies you don’t understand how to bait enemies close.
Warrior Pirest getting more damage would be unlikely, GK has more talents contributing to passive power bonuses, and weapons which clear crowds faster. WP has more crowd control.
He has 150 to 180 HP, 10% movement speed, can block warpfire, and the power bonuses contribute to the total THP from stagger, as well as clearing space as they do on WP. The careers with dashes don’t have shields besides FK who is a stagger tank.
It seems like our experience doesn’t line up. I’ve played GK since the patch, and there’s really been no issues. My experience might not line up with the average players, because I’ve got 5 reds of every type on every career except the elf. Even still, the average legend quick play crew I venture with often has a GK, and nobody seems to be struggling or complaining, if anything the issue is mainly that tanks are now less useful as most of the remaining playerbase can do both Legend and Cata simply by going for damage without much of a struggle.
Right now, with the skulls, maybe it’s harder to tell, because everyone I play with is massively buffed for most of the mission.
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With WP the same, if not the entire, and being 100% safe.
Already explained. Less dps on paper… but the resistance and the invulnerability give you way wider windows so more dps
10% mov speed is nothing compared with a leap or a dash. Block warpfire is cool, but it still stagger you (aka can block you)
WP doesn’t make more space, but he has still much more survivability thanks to other factors
I only talk about Cata (and above for example mods)… legend is too easy to discuss about these things
But, even talking about Cata, I agree with you: GK is perfectly able to complete every content, at every difficulty. He’s NOT weak nor bad… still, in my opinion, he’s overshadowed by other careers and his niche should be buffed
Legit. Everyone has his opinion
Again, this is why I bring up what I’ve seen in-game. Nobody is complaining or struggling. If we’re comparing and contrasting oppinions based on experience, then you’re alone here.
Well in that case, not everyone plays on Cata and I don’t think modded should be the basis for the argument since it’s not part of the core game. I only used modded as an example where players pick GK specifically for massive damage; and there, I’ve not seen complaints about his survivability either, though I don’t play it that often, but the people disagreeing with you do.
WP definately doesn’t rival GK’s damage either just because he survives better as a tank. This implies every game your non-tanks are just dying.
Fully agree. That’s why I put it in brackets, but it would have been better not to write it at all. For me, Cata should be the base of balancing. NOT mods
For the rest, we just have different visions. Thanks for the discussion!