I understand that concern but the idea would be pretty effective still I think.
Most of the reward would come from the team’s score overall. A smaller percentage of the reward would come from doing well personally. Which might be seen as “chasing green circles” first off, but if they actually judged individual careers ‘success’ properly then it wouldn’t be a problem.
IE add in friendly fire tracker and reward people for not friendly firing. Or if you’re playing a good horde clearing class, like battle wizard, your most important circle should be enemies slain. Or if you’re playing Hunter the goal would be getting good boss damage. Reward some classes for taking LESS damage and other classes for taking more. The scoreboard would need a lot of tweaking and this is definitely too big and good of an idea for Fatshark to ever implement. So it’s all just fantasy at this point.
I would love to see careers properly rewarded for playing their roles well rather than trying to top all the charts and ruining runs as you mentioned.
Consider this: sometimes it’s good to take a few hits for a team mate or at least put yourself to risk of getting hit. In that case taking damage or significantly increasing the risk of thereof is the good play and as such should probably be rewarded, no? There’s a reason no one has ever implemented a reward system into a team game that intelligently rewards individual performance in a game that has any complexity what-so-ever: It’s nigh impossible to implement in such a way that actually rewards good play (ie. does not incentivize bad decisions) and as such not worth the time investment (if it’s possible in the first place). If you disagree feel free to model & document such a system (from premise & intent to actual nitty gritty implementation details). I’d be glad to punch it full of holes.
While I would love to see personalized or career-specific stat screens, I really don’t want any of the statistics to affect the loot gained. If it could be keyed to team performance, fine. But on personal level, so many things change depending on the career, loadout, other players’ careers and loadouts, and simply the different situations arising during the run that I can only figure out one thing (that’s not even tracked at the moment) that could be useful enough to warrant it affecting your loot gained: How many times you were downed and killed. That’s the only stat that should always be the same (zero), the only one that actually reflects how well you did (though taken together with others) and even then, it’s usually impossible to avoid completely.
Tracking any individual performance will lead to people padding their stats with bad teamplay (and that’s already been a problem, even without any actual rewards for it). The stats simply cannot be tailored well enough to always reflect the purpose of your build and how well you and your build helped the team to complete the run. Things your build can and should do change through not only your career and weapon choices, but also through Talent choices and item Properties and Traits. That’s a huge amount of stuff to change, and some of the changes can be quite significant.
I’d get rid of quickplay, and implement a bonus based on the percentage of health each player has left at the end of the level. When I first started playing, I actually thought this is what “Ranald’s Gift” was.
This would also introduce a potential new meta-game, where you strategically decide to hold off using a potion or medkit so you can use it at the end of the level.
wow… the amount of friendly fire griefing this would entail.
Bardin: “Why are you outside the bubble, Kruber.”
Kruber: “Wait, I got NB. Just a few more minutes.”
Bardin: -_-’
Replace the QP bonus with one bonus loot die, and add 2 extra guaranteed loot die to the maps.
That’s a great way to initiate conversation that shows you’re genuinely willing to consider my idea!
Not saying it would be easy or that there aren’t outlier situations where doing the ‘wrong’ thing from a scoreboard scenario is the right thing for a gameplay scenario.
You can go strawman and slippery slope all day duder. It wouldn’t be impossible to tweak the scoreboard to recognize and reward careers more for their roles. Ironbreaker tanking damage/blocking damage = simple reward.
The main problem you actually have with this whole thing is probably centered around you playing with idiots that ruin runs chasing green circles. And that is already a flaw of having the circles in the first place, but it’s certainly not a completely false reading of skill or how well a run went. If you are playing a run with a Shade, Footknight, Ironbreaker, and Battle Wizard and anyone but Shade has the max boss damage then things at some point didn’t go as optimally as planned. Optimally you keep your best damage on the boss, protect that damage dealer from hordes/specials, and someone else kites him. If Shade doesn’t have max damage for boss at the end of it chances are she wasn’t well protected, aggressive enough, or died outright and wasn’t able to fulfill her role. Zealot is MADE to take damage so there’s another easy one right there.
Any way you slice it someone probably is doing something wrong if they aren’t optimally playing their role. At least that’s something everyone who parrots, “ITS HOW THE GAME IS MEANT TO BE PLAYED!” should agree with; if there is a way the game is meant to be played then there is an objectively right and wrong way to play it. If the former is true then a team with good synergy should have predictable end scores. Badda bing badda boom. Look at data of top players, successful runs, and unsuccessful runs. Things are bound to line up within some margins of error.
Point is it’s possible and already exists as a flawed version of what I’m suggesting. Case and point is everyone is already talking about idiots that ruin runs to chase green circles for bragging rights or what have you. Literally no reward and it’s still a problem. If it actually rewarded you for getting the right circles maybe there’d be an improvement to that is my thinking.
Feel free to call up FatShark for me and I will certainly get on trying to make a better, working model of such a system.
Yeah I understand this fear. Lots of people keep rewording this but the base problem doesn’t really have anything to do with my suggestion but the already broken system which doesn’t properly reward 3 tomes, 2 grims, and 4 living, healthy players at the end. If personal stat padding is a problem it’s only because of an incredibly dumb player that refuses to learn and/or the reward for stat padding being too high.
As far as builds and such go they really don’t exist in this game. Bounty Hunter is Bounty Hunter, Battle Wizard is Battle Wizard. Sure you can build them in slight different ways but they are really only effective in the ways they were originally designed for. Show me a good boss damage Ironbreaker or a Marksman that SPECIALIZES in horde clearing over damage dealing and special/elite sniping. Doesn’t much matter if you slap 5% crit chance or what have you on your Ironbreaker; he won’t be God’s gift to killing. The biggest factor for “builds” in this game is weapon choice. Call me cynical but I don’t think that counts. Especially since some weapons are very rarely used despite ALL being tailored specifically for their career/class.
People must have really low faith in this community.
I don’t really care for the game telling me that playing with strangers is a better option. I can decide for myself, and have. I don’t do quickplay, I only play with friends.
It’d be nice if they didn’t reward quickplay over just playing with friends if that’s what you prefer, but I don’t think they’ll relent.
But of course you can get the QP bonus and still play with friends. You just cant select which map you want to run.
Oh, I’d love to play random maps with my friends. But as Quickplay is always public, if I don’t have a full group (as is usually the case for me), I can’t really use it for that. Yes, there are tricks, and we’ve used them occasionally, but it’s still annoying extra effort. And that’s not counting the cases where you play Quickplays with full group of friends but someone disconnects.
Yes, I know I’ve complained about this before.
We need this:
Right below the difficulty option of quick play
"+"I don’t want to host
“-” strict matchmaking
Seems most people agree quickplay shouldn’t be rewarded and it’s only merit is nominally streamlining joining games. Edit Also it lets you play random maps which is a fun thing players like to do occasionally.
Keep it as an option but stop rewarding it and make the base reward for beating levels higher and every sensible person should be happy.
Well this is awkward as I don’t agree, I think it should stay as it is, I’d be unhappy to see it go… I also think that this is something Fatshark won’t change, while I don’t believe that you want to hear counter argument, I could be wrong… benefit t of the doubt and all…
To be clear I disagree that there’s no value in, or some implied penalty in quick play.
The answer from fatshark is clearly yes. The why is however all speculation on our part.
Bearing that in mind:
The money we’ve already paid has nothing to do with this question, neither does the concept of some kind of leader-board, this is about continued player base, quickplay seems likely an incentive to get players who don’t have regular/common groups a game, and not forcing those players into a subset of maps that “everyone” might be running for easier Emperors containers.
You are not losing anything when you don’t quick play, you are gaining something when you do.
To restate: I’d guess that the quick play reward is mainly to encourage random groups playing random maps, in support of that solo player base. If you or I choose not to participate in this by avoiding quickplay games I don’t see why they would/should reward us. I don’t see why this is unfair, a penalty, or wrong on fatsharks behalf.
Several these statements are incorrect:
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The first would be that there does seems to be a way the game is supposed to be played, a way that Fatshark desire it to be played, the anti-cheat software and the support for 2 different realms, promote the idea that Fatshark want you to play it a specific way.
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The second. You actually don’t own it, it has a EULA, now presuming you mean you purchased a license I’m not sure what it has to do with anything or why it makes you feel entitled to some bonus.
(End User Licence Agreement: “This Game is licensed, not sold, to you for use only under the terms and conditions of this EULA. All rights not expressly granted herein are reserved by Fatshark.”) Which is standard for most games. It sucks, for reasons not part of this discussion, but for console and computer software it’s pretty much unavoidable. -
The third we can speculate at, as I’ve already done… Further though I personally find that quickplay bonus does have some value, I’ve met a lot of vermintide 2 players via the quickplay button, several of them are now part of groups I prefer to play with, I’m still meeting people via it. Additionally I alone, and we as a partial or full group still regularly use the quickplay button.
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The Fourth, I agree with, There is no reason to coerce us to play, but I don’t see that they can or are doing that.
I’ll take this as a statement of supporting rewarding green circles, even if they are for stats that don’t currently exist. this needs it’s own thread as you say. In short however
I don’t think this should be implemented.
- Why should fatshark presume to define how any one player should play a class? (within the limitations of that class.)
- The Bounty hunter, Shade and Marksman can all clear hordes like champs, but how can you easily score them on it? Their abilities are different with each weapon selection and each map.
- What do you score the monster killer on when no monster spawns?
- Getting knocked down and killed to free the grim holder or remove a pinning special
might be the right choice. Why should the player(s) who did it get less reward for that? - Getting the grim would raise your chances of getting better or worse reward results, depending on your class, as the other players work to protect you. (I would think the group be able to decide which player takes the grim without having to wonder how it might affect their individual end game stats?
I’m sure however that we’d all be interested/open to hearing about some other way of awarding loot. I quite liked aspects of the quest board in verms 1.
Well written Mr…
Just to say something ridiculous to the last point… if something like leaderboard rewards will enter the game, everybody probably play handmaiden only. The survive ability is so ridiculous strong, just take tome + grim , ignore your mates and speedrun if necessary.
Or if you still wanna play with your team , go WS or pyro… GG
All should stay like it is… noone cares about such things ,if the game has more Content… there isnt even a real gap between the chests… got all my last reds from commendation-chests, which lied month on the bench…
Christ almighty that’s why I said a sensible person. To be fair I read all these responses and give them all a fair chance, at least I like to think.
You don’t need to be an English major or on the debate team to understand that most people, including you, keep parroting the same ideas worded vaguely differently with the same unsupported reasons.
Answer this question simply: Does it penalize a group of people who’ve met and like playing with each other on certain maps? (Personally my favorite is Into The Nest due to how linear it is, contains mostly Skaven, and has a Skaven lord.)
This is an empty argument because I don’t want Quickplay removed. Just the penalty. Stated this many times. The solo playerbase can still benefit from playing random maps with random people via quickplay. At this point YOU’RE arguing that there is some playerbase, the playerbase that hasn’t made any VT2 friends yet, deserves some special treatment. Which goes against your quote here: “I’m not sure what it has to do with anything or why it makes you feel entitled to some bonus.”
I’m not really gonna go in on your whole EULA argument and such. Yeah, I know I was sold a horribly-buggy DRM-only-undisclosed-Beta but I still paid money for it. Dunno what country you’re from but in regards to America complaining is a birthright. Also if you’re part of somethings success(READ AS MONEY), beta testing, and supposedly part of the target audience; then it would be prudent to listen to the people giving you money with well thought out opinions on the game. (READ AS COMPLAINING)
That’s basically all I have to say to your EULA argument. I’ve given a decent amount of money to the company. I have experience with both games. And quite a lot of experience with this one. I’ve posted some well thought out opinions. So therefore the system is working wonderfully when I come on here to complain to my heart’s content. It’s not about feeling entitled to some bonus, it’s being entitled to whining. God Bless 'Murrica.
More parroting of the same baseless response. I don’t care what Fatshark believes in terms of how the game should be played. I don’t support anyone who is a fun-nazi. Games are virtual toys to be played with, and so long as you’re not harming anyone else there is no fundamental reason for “How a game should be played.”
Argument completely moot by the fact it’d still be a thing. Unless you think people would stop playing it simply because of the removal of the extra half a chest upgrade being redistributed. Keep Quickplay, remove the bonus. You can still meet people. Doesn’t hurt the ‘solo playerbase.’ I’ve met a lot of people from quickplay, several have made it onto my friends list. We still do quickplay together and find other friends too. That wouldn’t change regardless of if QP bonus was removed; sometimes we like to go braindead too and let the game pick a map for us.
Come the hell on dude. You can’t agree on this point with me while parroting, “It’s how the devs want it to be played” on top of not being able to validate “how the devs want it to be played” as important aside from some legal mumbo jumbo about me not ‘owning the game’
How can you possibly not “see that they are doing that” while acknowledging “that there does seems to be a way the game is supposed to be played, a way that Fatshark desire it to be played.” IE they have reason to incentivize us to play the desired way.
I would like you to answer my bonus philosophical question:
People who have fun speedrunning, max efficiency soulless-fun-crushing farming (Yes some people dig the hell outta that), and glitching out of map. Those players are undeniably penalized from a loot standpoint (more than they already might be considering speedrunning is mostly for funsies unless you got a skilled trio that knows how to game the system) compared to the people who enjoy quickplay the most. And there isn’t any reason to do this. The amount of loot anyone else has doesn’t affect me. I’ve never felt like someone ‘overpowered’ has ever joined me game. Have you?
Moot. Reread that I don’t want QP removed, just the bonus. Picking random maps is fun sometimes. No one has been fighting anyone only that and it’s a great feature but on in that regard. The only other thing it does, like you mentioned, is help solo people find groups. Which I would LOVE to hear you argue intelligently how clicking quickplay once is so much more attractive than clicking 2-3 times and joining randomly from the lobby. So much more so that you fear for :
-Now we will get onto the green circles for a second. -
True anyone can be gods gift to killing hordes given the right weapon. However it doesn’t change the fact that some classes are better for certain roles, which you acknowledged here:
And on the beginning of that sentence asking why Fatshark should define how any one player should play a class. The simple answer to that is they already did and everyone is fine with it and expected it. Every class has three careers with each of them having different strong suits. BattleWizard is amazing with a conflag to compliment her lack of decent venting and her already existing stagger career skill. She can stagger things for days. However you’re not gonna put that staff on a Pyromancer because Conflags are designed not to crit, ect. So there already exist some definition to the roles of each class and career. If all the characters were the same it’d be pretty boring in my opinion.
Shot who in the what now?
Good point and that’s definitely a tricky thing to program a computer to be able to see/recognize reward. But what I have to say to that is this, don’t program such hard thing. If the grim holder is in such a dire situation that someone has to die for him then chances are you’re all not playing as tight as you should be. So if someone loses a bit of their lesser personal reward from the endscore they probably should get over it or try to consistently play tighter as a group. Sometimes taking your time and playing safely is a bit more boring but getting sloppy and hooked past a blind corner in a horde in your pejorative.
Once again, you shot who in the what now? You seem to be speaking as if you understand my not-completely-thoroughly written out idea and trying to poke holes in it. Keep identifying problems for me though. My solution to that would be no personal score from grim or tome. Every party benefits from a healer, especially one with healing touch.
I might get around to working on that thread sometime but right now im too busy to be arsed. Though I think almost ANY rework to ranald would be better than complete RNG. But that’s my opinion.
-Wrap up.-
Hopefully you feel like I gave you a decent response and chance. I would say I’m completely up for counter arguments. I just have yet to see ones that aren’t flowery responses of dev’s intentions and other various things missing the point. What I am interested in is how it actually affects the game and whether that could be changed in some better way.
I read the same things over and over in terms of
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“Quickplay helps the solo playerbase” - It just doesn’t, duder.
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“It’s how the devs want it to be played” Why does that TRULY matter? Did I give them money so some jerks could make the best game for themselves? No. I like playing the game trying hard, because that’s truthfully what you and the devs mean by ‘intended.’ I just also like playing the game casually and playing with glitches, speedrunning with friends, finding neat bugs, ect.
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“Quickplay makes it easier and faster to connect to people” This is a disgusting and intolerable level of laziness because you can’t argue faster when it’s a difference of a few clicks to join a random lobby.
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“Quick reward is mainly to encourage random groups to playing random maps” Here is the most interesting point people have made here. However let’s really talk about a co-op game here and maybe imagine if we could play on Cataclysm and it’d be harder than Legend. If the game were so much harder that it would be necessary, or at least heavily advised, to synergize and prepare your characters for a specific level. Then wouldn’t quickplay be kind of crappy for that difficulty? You could get thrown against a map like Against the Grain when you’re specialized more for bosses than hordes and clearings. But regardless of the possibility of if it were harder, I believe people should naturally be working to synergize and prepare for a certain level if they are playing ‘as intended’ IE trying hard. It IS a co-op game. Go try to kill Burblespew/Raksnitt without a good ranged class and you’ll see what I’m getting at. Granted it’s kind of a silly point for me to make, considering it’s possible, and I guess you COULD see yourself as better at the game for triumphing over being dealt a bad hand. It’s just that being dealt a bad hand and struggling isn’t all that impressive to me in a game where you can prepare. In L4D you did get dealt bad hands and were better for triumphing over them. However there is no class building, weapon choice, ect in that game so it makes sense why triumphing over a hard situation is impressive there. In this situation, and maybe it’s just my opinion, if your goal is struggle and triumph over struggle when you could otherwise not then you’re just kinda stupid.
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“I personally find that quickplay bonus does have some value, I’ve met a lot of vermintide 2 players via the quickplay button” I understand you feel this way personally, you can feel this way joining through lobby as well; the only way to meet other players is to first connect to strangers. However that doesn’t make me respect it in terms of it as an argument to keep the bonus around if you kept the feature in general. Like I have said before you can still meet players without this button. We managed in VT1, didn’t we? Furthermore and once again don’t remove the feature, just remove the penalty.
I understand why you’d think, “I don’t believe that you want to hear counter argument.” I am very opinionated and abrasive. I certainly don’t care about my ‘presentation’ here; what other players and fatshark think of me matters less than my points. All I care about is discussing the game’s direction when I am here. I truly do want this game to succeed, it’s so close to being phenomenal that it’s genuinely frustrating. Regardless of what someone might think of me as a person, my ideas are typically solid and have bases, even if that’s frustrating to admit due to my arseholish behavior.
I personally know a few people that only played QP because they felt screwed without the bonus. They stopped playing the game eventually due to no content or progression they felt, but will return when the game is better. But this is a pretty ignorable statement because my friends could just be stupid and this is basically the antithesis, but just as bad as, survivor bias. So take this experience as you want.
Survivor bias BS story and denial of there even being a problem. Like I’ve said before, forums and conversations aren’t some social contest where the goal is to be the most correct and composed. You aren’t getting brownie points or anything, trust me.
If this is truly how you feel then get out of my thread. You just said it doesn’t impact you meaningfully so either support my decision or stay out of it. I don’t care about you coming on here to talk about how good of a time you’re having in the game. Cool. Story. Dude. You’re easy to please and not critical, congratulations and enjoy the game. Come back when you have something to add to the conversation.
You are the worst type of person and I know this because you assume the worst in everyone else. You’re the reason we can’t even SPECULATE to have nice things. You just think about some minor flaw with it and engorge it to some unrealistic cartoon villain level. But hey, that’s just my opinion.
I don’t really have anything more to say to you aside from that I really really dislike everything that comes out of your responses.
Edit* I’d downvote you but hearts are the only option.
Man you really have to be mad…
Why should i support your decision or get out of “your” thread???
YOU want something, because you feel “whatever”… You disrespect anyone here and you disrespect FS for their work. Nobody have to share your opinion and if you don´t want some other arguments next to yours, don´t write them down here.
Yeah giving an example for what could happen, is assuming the worst in everyone else. x)
You want to remove th QP-bonus, personalized rewards etc., but you don´t even think about consequenzes. All you do is “I WANT I WANT I WANT” and if FS won´t jump , you call " FU FS etc." like in many other threads.
You probably miss to take a break from the game, like you already told.
Which nice things? That a shade killed 20 CW´s (what´s his job) and earn a merchant chest, but the pyro got all other green circles, because waveclear, tons of dmg, bossmelting class earn a emperors chest. GG
Yeah that´s really nice for the community to play around such bs. You cry hard about a half bar QP-bonus here and just want that the all ppl agree with you. You don´t care, that you would penalize “low - skilled” players really hard or “players who just do their job” with a system like that.
YES FS made a game and you paid for it. V2 is a COOP-game. We all knew it until release and even until V1. All in this game is build around it. So FS already told us to play this game with certain careers and coop pls.
I could even go and tell FS “I want a crossbow on Merc/FN , because i don´t like his other ranged weapons AND I WANT TO PLAY LIKE I WANT!!!”
That´s simply NOT how games working. Someone (FS in this case) thought about a game-idea and made it happen. SO YES! FS is gonna telling us how we should play this game and that´s the reason while cheating and special mods are not allowed + they fixed / will fix exploits like the skittergate one.
Yeah sry that you can´t downvote anyone for “not sharing your opinion and thinking about consequenzes”.
Maybe open another thread for it.
On behalf of @BlackBart, I’ll answer this one: It doesn’t penalize anyone. Having a coordinated group in a pre-chosen map has another bonus, not indicated by the game but still built-in: A greater chance (sometimes far so) to complete the map with more books. And for added fun, complete protection from griefers and trolls. QP bonus offsets that a bit, offering one Tome’s worth of a loot level. And I’d say the bigger chance to complete a run (i. e. get any loot at all), with more books to boot, is a far bigger bonus.
As to the career specialization part, I’ll toss out an example, the first I thought of and (I think) the most blatant one that can be fulfilling multiple roles: The Waystalker. Equip her with Hagbane, and she downright melts Bosses and unarmored Lords (and deals with other stuff well too). Use Swift Bow, and she can shoot everything in sight. Pick Longbow, and she snipes specials and elites like it’s nobody’s business, constantly. Similarly on the melee side, pick Daggers and any single target gets devastated. With Glaive, armor is worthless against her. Dual Swords, Sword and Dagger and Draich clear hordes amazingly well. Spear nets huge horde control and single Sword gives her incredible mobility in addition to at least moderate horde clear and armor damage. So WS can be specced to do almost anything, both on melee and ranged side. And to pre-empt an argument “then tie the reward to her equipment”, that would add a huge complexity. Basically, every combination of equipment (and Talent) would need to be gauged, what it can and should do. That’s a huge amount of work. And even if it managed to work somehow, people would still play to her strict style dictated by the supposed results, instead of the flexibility every career and set up needs to be played with. Even when careers are specialized to different stuff, everyone is on Special duty, everyone needs to deal with Hordes and Specials, and everyone needs to handle Bosses.
If Quickplay didn’t include an incentive, even the relatively small one it is, more two- and three-player groups would play just chosen maps privately. Which would leave those who play alone with even less options to find new games. So that means it directly does help lone players.
It’s not laziness, it’s comfort and quality of life. Those few clicks keep adding up in time, and there’s enough frustration over simply waiting for chests to appear when getting rewards, let alone what we would see if connecting to other games was more complicated.
I’ll have to say thanks to you, Rinik. This debate has actually let me see the point of the Quickplay Bonus better than before. Which is pretty much the opposite of what you attempted by starting this thread.
Because i care about you. X)
I still play this game and every change about it “affects me in some state”. This is a feedback-forum about this game and i can share my opinion everywhere here. I don´t care if you don´t like it. I care that FS don´t patch stuff like "green-circle-chests"or remove QP bonus, which is fine in it´s current state.
If you can´t accept other opinions and have to be rude in the next moment, you might stop writing in this forum.
Do you really think FS will patch the game like you want, if you call them “lhfhslafauh” in the next thread?
You really should change your mind if you want to share your opinions. “I want this or FU” won´t help.