The Overrepresentation of Sharpshooters

[Nish]

@Vodhawak

@Nish

I’m saying that the BB needs the +Ogryn power to not look like crap in itself. BB looked really bad in your initial “without everything” post.

BB looks like crap only compared to PS if you compare to any other weapon even without slaughter is a horde cleaving monster
Here is a Catachan and a combact axe best cleaving ataccks just as random comparisons:


Attack speed may be a little bit higer but still not enough to compensate to the DPS dicrepancy and Catachan sucks against carapace while the axe need to consume stamina to use his best cleaving attack.

Do you see how much superior to all the other weapons PS actually is?

I’ll argue Axe5 is at the same power as the PS, catachan I don’t use but… I’ve seen things. I still stand by my point that your original BB table was misleading and the second one was much more representative of reality. We should let it rest on this thread tho. It’s very far from the main topic…

@Vodhawak

Even without the revert BB would fare dicently agaist mixed hordes but PS would do much better regardless
BB is one of the “top meta” weapons for the Ogryn by no means has a lot of weakness, that’s why is even more of a perfect comparison to point out the immense qualities of the PS.

Perfect comparisons since you’d argue power sword is a top pick on Veteran (I’m not convinced about it). As I said before, BB is ogryn weapon, PS is a veteran weapon. If I could use BB with Ogryn melee power added (stamina, stamina regen, bonus damage ect.) on veteran I would pick it.

@Vodhawak

Fair, there may be some of those that purley enjoy seeing others in the killfeed knowing that in their heart there you helped enable them, and CC in all fairness is much more useful in DT than in VT2 since you need more time to reload or swap to ranged sometimes but there is a fine line that needs to be drawn

Fair enough. I’m in the kill-feed-loving crowd btw. I’m just saying giving veteran level of killing power on ogryn would be horribly unbalanced.

@Vodhawak

fun but if you got on a match with a battle wizard or basically any elf build you would be de facto playing a walking simulator.

I’m of the opinion that elf got hate even when it didn’t deserve it. There was (an around) 1 year period when VT2 zealot was buffed and it was close to release elf SoT level of broken and still all hate I’ve seen in that period (in-game) was towards the elf.

I hope we can avoid it in DT, but with the levels of undeserved hate and vitriol toward sharpshooters we might be getting close already. Yeah it’s a pew-pew class that everyone can pick up and it has a pretty good kit with different options, but seeing people write that it’s the most powerful class and writing happily how they try to make their game worse for them is just beyond reason…

@Vodhawak

It kills quicker than anythng else

Good. It should. There are also some other ranged weapons (besides flamethrower) that can keep up and that’s okay, but on the melee front good.

@Vodhawak

the best weapon in all the Veteran arsenal, as it is right now there is no reason to pick a different weapon unless i’m bored to always use the same thing. For what reason should i use one axe that is worse against hordes and can hit only one elite per swing? Because i get 10% more dodge distance? Surley not worth the trade.

This is a new argument, and I would argue against this. Let me know if you want to. I’m pretty tired now too.

@Vodhawak

I thought is you the trolling one…

Based on what you wrote we now are both of the opinions that the other isn’t, right? At least that’s a win, and no worries about the typos, it was totally readable.

[Bankrotas]

@Nish

I’ll argue Axe5 is at the same power as the PS,

Bullcrap.

[Rieven]

I wouldn’t worry about it. He’s special.

@muscarine

Yes i use autopistol

@muscarine

i just wish Autopistol wasn’t so garbage

Auto pistol wielding wizard wants to nerf the entire veteran class, the bolter, the flamer, the kantrel las gun, the power sword.

Got a tip for you sparkles. You want to use a gun? Play as a sharpshooter.

I’ll bet he’s using pinning fire on it. You know what I think auto pistol needs a nerf.

[Vodhawak]

@Nish

I’ll argue Axe5 is at the same power as the PS, catachan I don’t use but… I’ve seen things. I still stand by my point that your original BB table was misleading and the second one was much more representative of reality. We should let it rest on this thread tho. It’s very far from the main topic…

Well you can say that is misleading if you mean that the comparison without the slaughterer effect did not show well enough the enormous difference in killing power that the 2 weapons have.
I’m really tempted to see how a Caxe that has much less horde clear and can target only one elite at one time but 1 extra dodge and 10% extra dodge distance be on the same league of PS but you can do it by private message or open a different thread if you don’t want to derail the conversation more than it already has.

@Nish

Perfect comparisons since you’d argue power sword is a top pick on Veteran (I’m not convinced about it). As I said before, BB is ogryn weapon, PS is a veteran weapon. If I could use BB with Ogryn melee power added (stamina, stamina regen, bonus damage ect.) on veteran I would pick it.

Again how can it not be a top pick? Of course you could pick the BB it’s a perfectly fine weapon but as you can see PS outperforms it even without all the ogryn buffs so if you had acces to it you should still pick PS if you want to bring the most value.

@Nish

Fair enough. I’m in the kill-feed-loving crowd btw. I’m just saying giving veteran level of killing power on ogryn would be horribly unbalanced.

I can see that seeing how much you want the PS to stay has it is, no one here wants the Ogryn to have more melee killinig power, what he has is more than enough, we want Veteran to have less.

@Nish

I’m of the opinion that elf got hate even when it didn’t deserve it. There was (an around) 1 year period when VT2 zealot was buffed and it was close to release elf SoT level of broken and still all hate I’ve seen in that period (in-game) was towards the elf.

Zealot was always very strong because high killing power and high survivability but he never could solo a Stormvermin patrol in 2 seconds like SotT could ( and to be precise i don’t say 2 seconds just to mean fast, i was doing a cata duo with my partner and SV patrol was approaching, she ulted 2 times and 24 stormvermin instantly appeared in the killfeed ) Fortunately Veteran is not at that level.

@Nish

Good. It should. There are also some other ranged weapons (besides flamethrower) that can keep up and that’s okay, but on the melee front good.

I can’t answer to that except that it shouldn’t. If you can kill from range the fastest and from melee the fastest what use are the other careers? Should all the other classes be just enablers for a Veteran with PS to kill stuff? That’s how you end with a disproportionate amount of Veterans players.

@Nish

This is a new argument, and I would argue against this. Let me know if you want to. I’m pretty tired now too.

You can open another thread if you want or message me your reasoning.

[muscarine]

@Bankrotas

Bullcrap.

This thread in a nutshell

They’re arguing actual numbers and pretend TTK isn’t a thing

[ComradeHX]

I got a slaughterer lv4 crutchsword(+brutal momentum lv3, which is viable since, you know, rng tells me I’m not getting powercycler) and just easily top the scoreboard (on damnation ofc, but that’s not saying much since lots of noobs have been baited to join damnation hoping for carry for that sweet extra materials) basically every run(less I use the gun, better the result; so I had boltgun purely for utility of removing bulwark/crusher). If there’s no other veteran with similar setup often I would get near twice or more damage than the next one below. Those flamer idiots? Not even close, best they can do is more boss damage on meme build.

Guns are so uncivilized even on veteran.

This bs needs nerf to stagger at the very least. It can have 2 or even 1 effective dodge and it will still be braindead easy self-defense weapon(which I can only assume is its role - to give the non-vermintide players a way to defend themselves without melee competency) due to how easy it is to get off 3 heavies that stagger almost anything you would use a melee against. Because even if they literally can’t dodge, they can do a push.

3 swings during which most enemies can’t get to you means the slight dodgecount disadvantage compared to lighter weapons(not that it’s a real disadvantage, eviscerator also has 4 at above 50% mobility) basically doesn’t exist. Only time I ran out of dodge was when I was using dodge/slide to close the distance to enemy(offensively, of course).

As I mentioned previously, veteran gets a hefty chunk of toughness back via elite kill(works against specials and ragers, now you see why I want stagger nerfed? there is almost never a shortage of free toughness regen otherwise), and apparently the 25% over time stacks infinitely(mostly during hunting ground, kill a ton of special poxhounds and see a ton of icons pop up with toughness regen like crazy), on ult activation vet can get 60% instantly and then 25% easily(use a boltgun, delete almost any elite with hipfire spray at most distances), which is basically back to full. For the same elite kill, Zealot gets like 5% or at best 8.75% if you chose the wrong feat.

That’s in addition to the fact that veteran can poop out grenades(1 every 60s + 5% chance) so a nade can be used for every occasion(zealot yelling a little too much from ult resets? blow enemies away so he hits fewer enemies for ult reset; zealot going down? send thoughts and prayers, and a nade).

So why the hell is a “ranged class” a near top tier melee class as well?

I think crutchsword, if not nerfed in any direct combat stats, should run on “ammo”(energy) so it can’t be used as primary weapon 100% of time(which it currently can, if you have a shred of basic melee skill).

[ComradeHX]

Also I’m willing to make the concession of having crutchsword unpowered state apply more stagger(like regular sword or higher) while nerfing its stagger in powered state. Such that it’s able to stagger rager with some +% power(like slaughterer stacks) but only when unpowered and using heavy.

So there’s more reason to use it unpowered beyond just finishing off a trashmob that survived with 1 hp. And it would make powercycler less of a braindead must-have(rather than dealing out multiple hits that stagger most things, it would fail to stop ragers…etc. and make user more vulnerable - forcing user to block or dodge, or turn it off). More uses for unpowered crutchsword would probably also make its rending blessing(Supercharged) more relevant(two quick light swipes when powered → about 5s of doing decent damage/stagger to crusher/mauler’s face when unpowered).

[Keln]

Playing as a melee in a team having 2 sharpshooters severely damages my experience:
They are both good at it, have good weapons:
Nothing makes it into melee range.
I get roasted for being “useless”

Vets have too much firepower while not having any apparent weakness. Period.

[Dexta]

Have you tried playing anything else than uprising? And no this isnt an elitist comment, if you claim people just clear Damnation and you have nothing to do, you are simply lying for dramatic effect.

[Nish]

@Vodhawak

Ogryn to have more melee killinig power, what he has is more than enough, we want Veteran to have less.

All the same, if veterans get into the killing power range of the other classes there would be less of a reason to run it (or no reason apart from a different playstyle, psyker was run when it was very suboptimal…).

It’s even more strange, this whole thread about how powerful veteran is, while zealot is far better, and incredibly easy to carry with, and you think ogryn is the best class. Sure nerf the 3rd at most from 4 classes, that sounds like a good idea, and something like veteran being a top melee class is laughable at best.

All in all, I think people are only thinking about pure killing power, which power sword has plenty of. A class having more overall damage doesn’t mean it did its job better, sure you can go and slash at the horde engulfed in flames, but that isn’t something worthwhile to do.

As far as I can see is that the only reasonable change here proposed was a stagger nerf against elites, everyone else just wants it gone basically, or slowly nerfed into nothingness. It’s a glass canon weapon on a glass canon class, and it clearly has a place in the game.

@Vodhawak

[VT2] Zealot was always very strong because high killing power and high survivability

Apart from jumping on my exaggeration, you can probably see that it was 1) terribly unbalanced 2) it was really strange to see zealots solo-charging the map killing everything, and then hating on elf because too op (before SotT release, SotT was incredibly op at release)

I was running it and it was ridiculous, the only saving grace was that it had a good skill impression.

I pulled this out since this is the same thing I see here, people bitching about a class that isn’t even the best demanding nerf, and joking about how they f them over cos it’s fun. After the buffs, psyker’s power skyrocketed with great QoL and survivability (at least on some builds), Zealot had a very well-deserved DR nerf, and apart from everyone crying wolf, it’s still the best and has a number of weapon options to run, but apart from the (very reasonable) flamer nerf people just want veteran pushed to the bottom for some reason.

[Vodhawak]

@Nish

All the same, if veterans get into the killing power range of the other classes there would be less of a reason to run it

Of course if you make the class perform equal to the other classes there would be more balance to the game and this is good.

@Nish

It’s even more strange, this whole thread about how powerful veteran is, while zealot is far better, and incredibly easy to carry with, and you think ogryn is the best class. Sure nerf the 3rd at most from 4 classes, that sounds like a good idea, and something like veteran being a top melee class is laughable at best.

I never said anything of that, as long as Powersword stay like this Veteran is the calss with most value in the game. I may have said that the Ogryn is the class with the best balance.

@Nish

All in all, I think people are only thinking about pure killing power, which power sword has plenty of. A class having more overall damage doesn’t mean it did its job better, sure you can go and slash at the horde engulfed in flames, but that isn’t something worthwhile to do.

Again, it’s not about doing better job but coming very close to it.
If for example a veteran can do 50% of what a Zealot can do and Zealot can’t do 50% of what a Veteran can then Veteran is woth more than a Zealot, it’s as simple as that.

@Nish

As far as I can see is that the only reasonable change here proposed was a stagger nerf against elites, everyone else just wants it gone basically, or slowly nerfed into nothingness. It’s a glass canon weapon on a glass canon class, and it clearly has a place in the game.

If PS and Veteran are glass cannons for sure the glass is bulletproof.

@Nish

Apart from jumping on my exaggeration, you can probably see that it was 1) terribly unbalanced 2) it was really strange to see zealots solo-charging the map killing everything, and then hating on elf because too op (before SotT release, SotT was incredibly op at release)

This is a topic for the Vermintide part of the forums, VT zealot has a cruch talent that shoud be removed, his weapons have considerably be toned down alredy elf had much less downtune.

@Nish

I pulled this out since this is the same thing I see here, people bitching about a class that isn’t even the best demanding nerf, and joking about how they f them over cos it’s fun. After the buffs, psyker’s power skyrocketed with great QoL and survivability (at least on some builds), Zealot had a very well-deserved DR nerf, and apart from everyone crying wolf, it’s still the best and has a number of weapon options to run, but apart from the (very reasonable) flamer nerf people just want veteran pushed to the bottom for some reason.

It is the best class, in terms of value, in terms of fun is subjective. But we don’t want him to the bottom, we want all on the same plane.

[Nish]

@Vodhawak

This is a topic for the Vermintide part of the forums

You started to get deep into VT2 classes, but fine I let it drop…

@Vodhawak

I never said anything of that … I may have said that the Ogryn is the class with the best balance.

You are right, I double-checked and I misread your previous statement: “Ogryn is in a very good place right now probably in the best compared to all the other careers.”

I still think that Zealot is far better tho overall, and both Zealot and Ogryn are better in melee.

@Vodhawak

Of course if you make the class perform equal to the other classes there would be more balance to the game and this is good.

@Vodhawak

It is the best class, in terms of value, in terms of fun is subjective. But we don’t want him to the bottom, we want all on the same plane.

@Vodhawak

If for example a veteran can do 50% of what a Zealot can do and Zealot can’t do 50% of what a Veteran can then Veteran is woth more than a Zealot, it’s as simple as that.

I can already equip a lasgun on zealot and pew-pew specials and shooters (my SO does that), or go bolter and ult/dump into elites and disintegrate them.

I reiterate. If you want to move the sharpshooter into the TTK, damage range of the ogryn than wouldn’t it just mean it will be just worse cos it’s far less survivable?

I get that there needs to be upsides or situations for characters to shine, but all I can see is the want to nerf the least survivable class with the least amount of clutch potential because it deals more damage than the others, this doesn’t make sense to me. (This point isn’t even about the PS it’s about this thread overall.)

@Vodhawak

as long as Powersword stay like this Veteran is the calss with most value in the game.

This statement here isn’t true at all. Zealot is the hardest carry by far in the game, it can deal with any and all situations with high reliability, PS makes 0 difference in that.

On veteran I actively rely on my teammates to do their job, on psyker or zealot I can just do my thing, even when things turn sour I can just clutch it out.

You saying something like this is the reason I think it’s mostly unfounded hate that makes these threads.

[ComradeHX]

@Nish

All in all, I think people are only thinking about pure killing power, which power sword has plenty of. A class having more overall damage doesn’t mean it did its job better, sure you can go and slash at the horde engulfed in flames, but that isn’t something worthwhile to do.

You didn’t think enough; because you neglected the fact that quickly killing multiple enemies means lots and lots of toughness regen(and if one of them is elite, that’s +25% immediately and +25% over time - which stacks). Meanwhile clown zealot with trash flamer isn’t getting any toughness from flamer kills.

Veteran can afford to facetank hits as long as he’s killing enemies after every hit with the crutch sword.

Also quickly eliminating stuff without the visual clutter from clown flamers is actually a lot more powerful than you expected. Veteran doesn’t just have powerful melee, veteran can also instantly pull out boltgun by using ult.

When veteran sprays down a few elites he’s basically in god mode because he gets 25% toughness each kill and the 25% over time stacks indefinitely.
The clown flamer zealot gets no toughness regen from any of those flamer kills, as usual.

And eventually that flamer is going to have to reload; veteran doesn’t care about that(automatic reload on ult with feat), so veteran can keep pumping out the melee damage (and get the toughness chunks if needed) when he finishes spraying with boltgun.

Meanwhile that flamer clown is probably getting face caved in by bulwark. lol

Not a single bit of your clown flamer “build” can compete with instant-pullout/no-reload boltgun at 50%+ damage that staggers bulwark out of block and erases almost everything, that also gives veteran a hefty chunk of toughness(of which he already has twice the base number of zealot’s) each kill. And you need to abuse ult just to be able to kill crusher with flamer without dying of old age.

If you feel that zealot is “good” for carrying then often that’s because bad weapon selection on your part resulted in more situation in which zealot needs to carry instead of just avoiding the situation altogether.

[Lion-EL-Gubson]

Well he made a good point.

So best solution is to stop Veteran stealing the Zealots thing. According to him the Zealots thing is fast and hard melee killing.( And not staying perfectly alive 100% of the time while in heavy melee engagement duo to his possible full self heal)

Power sword gets deleted! Zealots can finally stop complaining about Veteran being to good at melee.

BUT!

Zealot can no longer use any Weapon other than the Flamer, that has an ADS function and only gets to wield Braced guns to not STEAL the Veterans THING.

No more Zealot Lasgun/pistol, BOLTER, Revolver, Shotgun…

[Vodhawak]

@Nish

I can already equip a lasgun on zealot and pew-pew specials and shooters (my SO does that), or go bolter and ult/dump into elites and disintegrate them.

Yes but can’t regenerate ammo by itself, regenerate granades, 40% more ammo, instantly have his weapon in his hand with full magazine, have priority targets revealed to him and all other Veteran advantages. Some inexperienced people that can’t take advantage of zealot mobility and just mostly shoot at evrything except in hordes alredy call the zalot a “worse veteran”. Even if the Zealot kit is very strong the fact that Veteran can bring his own kit and tap in to the kit of the Zealot is huge benefit.

@Nish

I reiterate. If you want to move the sharpshooter into the TTK, damage range of the ogryn than wouldn’t it just mean it will be just worse cos it’s far less survivable?

Is not like PS is the only Melee weapon that he can use, a veteran could start to pick the best combination to compensate for his ranged weakness.
Is not like killing evrything in front of you is the only way to survive, for sure is the most efficent but being able to do that in evry situation is not balanced.

@Nish

This statement here isn’t true at all. Zealot is the hardest carry by far in the game, it can deal with any and all situations with high reliability, PS makes 0 difference in that.

On veteran I actively rely on my teammates to do their job, on psyker or zealot I can just do my thing, even when things turn sour I can just clutch it out.

You saying something like this is the reason I think it’s mostly unfounded hate that makes these threads.

This is just a metter of skill of the player all classes have insane cluch capabilities if played to their max potential.

[Nish]

@ComradeHX

@Nish

All in all, I think people are only thinking about pure killing power, which power sword has plenty of. A class having more overall damage doesn’t mean it did its job better, sure you can go and slash at the horde engulfed in flames, but that isn’t something worthwhile to do.

You didn’t think enough; because you neglected the fact that quickly killing multiple enemies means lots and lots of toughness regen(and if one of them is elite, that’s +25% immediately and +25% over time - which stacks). Meanwhile clown zealot with trash flamer isn’t getting any toughness from flamer kills.

What you wrote has nothing to do with what you quoted. If you want to pick a fight about PS there is more I wrote above that would be more fitting to strike at, but I rather not debate with you based on our previous conversation where you were pretty unpleasant.

BTW I think your point about nerfing stagger I think is really good, that’s something I find on PS to be too much (and also strange to have).

[Lion-EL-Gubson]

@Vodhawak

instantly have his weapon in his hand with full magazine, have priority targets revealed to him and all other Veteran advantages.

You can not have both Abilitys at the same time

[ComradeHX]

You’re the one being unpleasant when you started generalizing and downgrading valid points to something like “but everybody only think this and i’m so smart har har.”

Again: vet gets a ton of toughness back from the kills, that absolutely is worthwhile. The quicker people can kill the enemies(burning or not, it’s not vet’s job to figure out if you applied enough burn stack to secure the kill), the faster they can move on to other things(without the visual clutter of burning enemies…etc.).

it can deal with any and all situations with high reliability

You insisting zealot is far better is not a valid point, at all. (because for one, you’re trying to do melee weapon’s job with the clown flamer) Zealot’s supposed ability to deal with “all situations” certainly didn’t include multiple gunners/reapers/snipers split up.

[Vodhawak]

I was making a list of examples of Veteran ranged adavntages, there are more to add and some mutually excluive. Anyway from your other reply i see that you understood nithig of what i said so even pointing this out is a little worthelss.

[Nish]

@Vodhawak

Yes but can’t regenerate ammo by itself, regenerate granades…

Yes, there are upsides, but didn’t you say doing just support is bad for the game? Las has so many shots it isn’t even funny and braced also has plenty to unload without regen. Your point was 50% was it not?

@Vodhawak

Is not like PS is the only Melee weapon that he can use, a veteran could start to pick the best combination to compensate for his ranged weakness.
Is not like killing evrything in front of you is the only way to survive, for sure is the most efficent but being able to do that in evry situation is not balanced.

You declined to go into this with Axe5, but you can already do that and should. PS is imo the best pick if 1) you running something super clumsy without grenade regen and want the ability to deal with overwhelming melee already on you 2) your team really lacks damage and you are on a low DPS weapon (K12).

@Vodhawak

This is just a metter of skill of the player all classes have insane cluch capabilities if played to their max potential.

Is it? I mean yeah there are players that can true solo the game with all classes, but that doesn’t mean they wouldn’t have an easier time with some than others. Zealot outperforms Vet in this regard to an extreme amount and Psyker does outperform too.