Dude you are on the internet and not inside your hometown bubble. If you start complaining about grammar mistakes on a forum of international Players, you better learn every foreign language that there is. Because you just lowkey insult people who speak write and read more than 2 or even 3 languages.
And you speak the one that is a ripped, stripped and slaughtered form of one of the hardest to learn and to master. So don’t be that guy that uses spelling mistakes of others to make himself feel smarter.
Overall BB is a perfect comparison with PS since they both have slaughterer blessings to buff the weapon’s killing power and both are kill-oriented weapons. I think the damage calculations you posted are a bit misleading leaving out the ogryn’s built extra power and slaughterer.
I’d say it represents well that PS is a better horde-killing weapon, better against mixed groups (but bull butcher with the recent changes reverted is still good in those situations), but…
The second part is super misleading. BB isn’t a little better, it’s way better. It’s on an ogryn with better stamina regen, toughness regen, toughness dr, and health dr (that I’m confident is bugged also increasing TDR again), and double the base health (or more if you add health dr), with an oh sh*t ult that helps you reposition and CC everything in your way. I might even have left something out, like confident strike or toughness back on heavies on ogryn…
You make 1, or 2 mistakes at most and you are down on PS. While playing BB ogryn is pretty forgiving.
I think the point missed here is that the survivable CC/Support class engaging and getting aggro to let the immobile, paper DPS class get in close and make things die quicker is both optimal and balanced.
When you pulled 40 mooks and 4 ragers and the veteran engages and kills them faster than you could he is helping you while you are doing your job to keep enemies off of him.
BTW, I see the point of this might not feel good, but I feel like ogryn is desired to be more an indestructible brute of destruction (that would be pretty unbalanced) than the ultra tanky CC/Support class that it is.
You make 1, or 2 mistakes at most and you are down on PS.
Hmm, not really. At least for me since if I take a hit or two and proceed to get a sweep in then I’ll get all the toughness I lose back. Unless you’re talking about Mauler over Crusher’s overhead attack.
Also even with bad defensive stat, the offensive stat of PS is actually kinda make up for it. Most weapon have to push or dodge multiple time because it can’t finish off enemy fast enough but with PS at most you have to push the enemy that’s too close off you, energize, step backward, do Heavy sweep and that’ll give enough breath time to regen dodge count/stamina and keep the momentum going.
While PS is pretty easy to use most people still seem to not being able to utilize it to full potential. I always see people overextend because they’re too confident and when they get gank up they don’t bother to push, kite, dodge or slide at all. They either just panic guard or trying to energize their sword and get hit over and over.
Also a lot of people are not managing dodge count to the point their character do slow dodge or jump(if they didn’t change the keybind).
Another mistake is they run too much so when they get into melee fight they don’t have enough stamina to guard or push, make them an easy target.
The only time PS would perform worse than other weapon is when you want to turn your back and run.
So the bad defensive stat on PS isn’t really that much of a problem, people just learned a bad habit and see it as not their fault but their weapon’s.
(Yes, I actually just said PS take some skill to use effectively, although I wouldn’t say it’s low skill floor-high skill ceiling)
I’m sorry I wasn’t clear enough, I mean you can me 1 or 2 small mistakes at most in a pressure situation. In optimal situations (corner, choke, able to move etc.) the offensive power makes up for it you are right.
I agree.
I think this isn’t true. Getting regrouped with vet using a power sword is overall harder due to poor dodge/block than other weapons, this includes trying to reposition to help others after you get separated. It’s something that can come up. Edit: Both PS and Vet overall are pretty bad at this.
I think PS does have some good qualities to teach you some overall game knowledge. Optimal use means sticking to walls, and chokes, not letting yourself be surrounded, and sticking to the team. Still, I’m not sure if either I or you are right on this.
Yep. That’s one of the reasons it gets used so frequently, apart from things like the high killing power helping the vet to get back to shooting after slaying enemies near you when other players can’t or aren’t covering you.
I said you can increase all the ogryn this damage by 35% considering his passive and Raging bull and damage still pales in comparison.
Look at the the third enemy hit, it’s already almost double the damage of BB and as you mentioned slaughterer is available to both weapons.
You are mixing things, defense is way better because the ogryn is more defense oriented. It has nothing to do with the weapon itself, that’s why later i say that PS doesn’t compleatly make the class worthless. And if we want to go that route Vet can recharge 60% of his toughness while getting instantly his loaded range weapon in hand with 1.5 multiplier range damage you can shoot everything before it reaches you. To elaborate more on what said in my previous post with BB when ragers maulers bulwarks approach you dodging pushing and blocking is much more required compared to powersword because of higher damage and cleave, really defenses are much less needed when you have basically the highest offensive in all the game.
It may look balanced in theory but in truth it would just be more efficient to get 2 things that kill things faster than having one to be the target and the second to clean things up easly around him not to mention that for most people wouldn’t be fun to be just the aggro guy when the others get all the kills. Not healthy for the game in more than one way.
You quitely left out the part below and I don’t feel good about that…
I think it’s misleading because BB does have that, and slaughterer helps out BB more when only considering simple hordes and not mixed groups.
Am I? Should weapons be considered in a vacuum? PS is a class-exclusive weapon for a reason…
I’m not going to comment on your less-than-stellar arguments about the vet’s melee capabilities. I’m sure you don’t want to say the vet is better right?
I don’t think that’s true at all. Disruption is highly valuable in the game. Stacking CC is super effective (triple surge staff games are a walk in the park on normal damnation).
Again you kinda left out this…
…and you are so wrong on your point. If you want to do more damage play a less tanky class. Ogryn is a class to set up others. CC/support and “tanking” some people actually find it super fun. VT2 shield foot knight… Ogryn’s meta weapons have very high damage for a class like this.
Even MMOs that broke from the “holy trinity” of tank, healer, dps have roles like paper DPS, support, CC, heal, etc. (GW2 comes to mind). The concept of people liking different roles, or even single-player games where you have multiple characters having multiple roles making the experience better (like any TTRPG based game) is at least 40-year-old concept.
I just tested it. Was playing Ogryn like 15 missions and had quite good teams (of course sometimes two Ogryn total or two Sharpshooter), but rather often one operative per class or only one class double.
Then I switched to Sharpshooter (both level 30 btw, playing at diff 3) and I got two rounds with Sharpshooters only and like 6 missions with three and one preacher or psyker - strange.
I don’t understand why you are so fixated on Slaughterer blessing since Power sword can use it too but ok lets look at a comparison with a t4 slaughterer with max stacks to what we can call a profane PS with no blessings :
BB
PS
568,89
362,67
455,112
235,74
261,954
235,74
130,977
181,34
65,4885
163,2
145,07
126,93
90,67
This time i made my own table to imput the +35% extra damage of the Ogrin from feats and passives, PS still starts to outperform BB from the 4th enemy hit, not only that, if we look this data in practical terms ( breakpoints ) if we are talking of a groaners horde ( 200 hp damnation ) PS vastly outperforms BB as they both oneshot the first 3 enemies hit but then the BB damage starts to fall of drastically compared to PS. If we are taking about a Pxwalker horde then BB will surpass PS at the second hit as it will kill 2 enemies with one attack but still lose in terms of overall DPS. And even if it wouldn’t this is still a comparison between a max tier4 blessing to a base weapon.
If you imply that Slaughterer is less valuable on PS because it’s horede killing potential is alredy very high and would be better to put something like superchargher and rending you are probably right but this fact works against you if you want to prove that PS is not imbalanced.
Btw do you want to see the PS slaughterer damage table just for fun?
One shot body shot up to 4 poxwalkers in one swing with the fifth one easly achiavable with just 6% damage increase.
You either consider the weapon in a vacuum or with their related context but you can’t consider the context in one case and completely disregard it in the other case, and i’m starting to doubt you are reading my posts with much attention as i stated that they are still inferior to a melee focused class but yet said capabilities still hold pretty damn well the comparison.
The fact that you label my arguments as “less than stellar” and not wantoing to comment on them only prove how disingenuous you are in defending Powersword need of a nerf.
What you “feel” that people desire Ogryn to be is not my concern or my interest, it is true however that it’s CC/support oriented more than the other classes.
And here i link to your second part of the post
Ogryn or tanky characters in the tide series can’t work in the classic way of tanks, you can’t compare a tide game with a MMO or a TTRPG or a single player RPG. In those games tanks can absorb an enormous amount of damage, very often have regenerative and stun abilities and often work in a context of more teammates and less enemies. Here in a tide game if you have to choose between i can keep 10 enemies stunned for 1 second or kill 10 enemies in 1 second the better choice is obvious. It’s enough to look at the ogryn shield that is considered a bad weapon even if it can absorb by far the highest amount of damage a weapon ever could in a tide game but has super low damage. Because essentially you are just not dying but not give any contribute in making enemies die faster.
I can go on and have more details in how tanks in tide games and the oter tipe of games that you mentioned work but frankly i think is off topic and not interesting for me.
And while there are some kinds of people that enjoy playing the tank role it’s by far the least amount compared to the others. I know specifically of one competitive game that had to offer rewards to his playerbase to play the tank role.
I’m only saying this because for you it’s important that I accurately reply to you on every point because Ogryn damage potential is absolutely not low and I believe it’s very well designed for a tide game and by far is not limited to just the CC/support role that you believe it is. The reason why I picked the Bull Butcher and the Ogryn is because it’s the most easily comparable situation. Ogryn is in a very good place right now probably in the best compared to all the other careers.
I don’t proof read my posts on the fatshark forum lol
I linked some of my old weapons to show you I didn’t just use the power sword from day one. I messed around with the blessings and perks quite a bit trying stuff out for myself while I waited for power cycler blessing…
Then I see you on the forum. Your toxic and salty I don’t know why. Maybe you are obsessed with the scoreboard mod and want to beat your own team instead of working with them to complete the mission who knows. Who cares.
Your insults as you call them are pathetic Stop and think for a moment if two other random people saw your posts and called you out for them maybe YOU are the problem and you should probably just shut up and play the game. Maybe make a vet yourself and get a power sword lol
You definitely hate veteran sharpshooter and anyone who plays it not everyone who plays sharpshooter is hard scoping with camo on you know You’re a hater sorry to break that to you I really hope fat shark don’t listen to people like you. If they do it would be a horrible shame.
You have written enough to convince me you aren’t a troll, but I’m think you are missing my points really heavily.
I’m saying that the BB needs the +Ogryn power to not look like crap in itself. BB looked really bad in your initial “without everything” post.
This:
As you can see I said PS has better horde-killing power. Do you properly read my posts?
I argue in context. I disregarded this:
Because compared to all the upsides ogryn and zealot have a 60% toughness return on ult is nothing, and we are talking about melee capability here.
If you want to go and put everything in and argue about class balance, we can argue that about that, but I see no point, since you believe that ogryn is (probably) the best and I think zealot is the overall best so… IDK?
I suspected giving an mmo example is something you would latch onto and is probably a bad idea, but let me rephrase.
This is BS, because…
The concept of team games with different roles to make people with preferences for different roles happy (or to include them) is as old as team games.
You might not be the happy-to-aggro guy, but I see a lot of requests for the ogryn shield to have the missing taunt blessing implemented, and there were a lot of more CC/Support oriented builds in VT2…
I agree that ogryn has very good potential and has good damage with the CC/Support focus it has and I also said I’m happy that you picked BB, I think it’s a wonderful weapon to compare to (top killing power on ogryn compared to top killing power on vet).
My point is that if you want to nerf the damage output of the power sword because it kills quicker than ogryn, then that’s a pretty bad argument. I also find that CC is much more useful in the game than you let to believe and already made some points about it previously, if you also want to argue about that go ahead.
PS: Calling your argument less than stellar and moving on might have been pretty rude, based on what you wrote I think you have taken offense, I’m sorry if I caused any with it.
PPS: I think PS is in a good place, based on the recent BB/Caxe change revert I think FS wants to put weapons on that power level and PS/BB/Caxe are more or less on the same power level. I like this direction from FS.
If they truly do then in my opinion it’s a mistake
The only next step after that is boring DHI
It already is with a somewhat competent team and especially with the broken weapon trinity : Power Sword, Bolter, Flamer
Bonus point for Kantrael
So that leaves only an additional difficulty level to make up for the ridiculous power creep, which leads to a whole other discussion about what you’re going to do because
a/ The servers cannot handle DHI already, it’s a lagfest of input drops
b/What are they gonna do, even more shooters ? Who deal even more damage ? That’ll only solidify classes and weapons imbalances
c/ One or two hits to die or something ? With this horrendous connectivity ? Making all defensive options pointless ?
edit - And just for a reminder, weapons are supposed to merely be at 80% power right now
Not that those additional 20% would make a massive difference considering 0% doesn’t mean 0 in a given attribute, but still
Although arguably this design will probably change along the way
These are some good points, but I want to see a harder difficulty.
BTW I still find Hi-int 5 challenging, but I manage to have around 90-95% win rate on it due to incredibly high player quality. I’d say outside of ogryn most classes use off-meta gear there that doesn’t fit this forum’s perception as good weapons at all.
This isn’t an argument that your listed weapons don’t overperform, I’m just saying that even without them it’s pretty easy. Once or twice I’ve seen people with bolter do incredible stuff but they were soo good that I think you can give them a knife and a revolver and they will just solo the map (a bit of an exaggeration of course, but I think you get my point).
I think this is another good argument for why we will probably have dif6 in the future. I’ve seen somewhere from a Dev or a CM that they designed the 80% to have some room for future additions to grow into.
I mean yes it is arguably the most fun, except when it becomes easy mode because of those
As for what’s meta, and what this forum and reddit consider meta, there’s a world of diffrence for sure
I main Psyker and it’s still a very painful discussion with my peers trying to explain staffs underperform in pretty much every regards, Soul Blaze is a meme, and you should consider bringing a gun
Doesn’t mean i’m going to complain if you like to spam zaps in DHI, i’ll take suboptimal viable build players any day over easy mode stuff like what’s being discussed in this thread, more fun that way
I don’t share your experience (Flamer, bolter, PS) making DHI much easier, and as I said due to player quality we will have to have a dif6 one way or the other…
BB looks like crap only compared to PS if you compare to any other weapon even without slaughter is a horde cleaving monster
Here is a Catachan and a combact axe best cleaving ataccks just as random comparisons:
Attack speed may be a little bit higer but still not enough to compensate to the DPS dicrepancy and Catachan sucks against carapace while the axe need to consume stamina to use his best cleaving attack.
Do you see how much superior to all the other weapons PS actually is?
Even without the revert BB would fare dicently agaist mixed hordes but PS would do much better regardless
BB is one of the “top meta” weapons for the Ogryn by no means has a lot of weakness, that’s why is even more of a perfect comparison to point out the immense qualities of the PS.
Fair, there may be some of those that purley enjoy seeing others in the killfeed knowing that in their heart there you helped enable them, and CC in all fairness is much more useful in DT than in VT2 since you need more time to reload or swap to ranged sometimes but there is a fine line that needs to be drawn Best example is Power Maul vs Shield both have very good CC and Bad dps on hordes but PM at least destroys elites, peole calling for his tount ability is to give at least some real use to the weapon that at this moment is the weakest in the game.
In vermintide stagger builds had always existed but but always pretty niche considering how much harder it is to actually reach the stagger breakpoints for the elites that one might argue tu put the same investment in killing them faster is a better idea, in ptoof of that Foot Knigt was always considered worse pick than his Mercenary or Grail Knight options. Of course even on Catay those build were perfectly viable and fun but if you got on a match with a battle wizard or basically any elf build you would be de facto playing a walking simulator.
It kills quicker than anythng else except the flamer though ( another exceptionally overperforming weapon ) regardless of the argument that the most ranged oriented class in the game shouldn’t have so much melee killing power that is just a metter of personal opinions and can go on ad ifninitum it’s still the best weapon in all the Veteran arsenal, as it is right now there is no reason to pick a different weapon unless i’m bored to always use the same thing. For what reason should i use one axe that is worse against hordes and can hit only one elite per swing? Because i get 10% more dodge distance? Surley not worth the trade.
It did trigger me, apologies accepted.
PS i did not profreed as its very late for me and i need to sleep so probably my post is full of typos or grammar errors, i will fix in the moring if i remind.
Stop and think for a moment if two other random people saw your posts and called you out for them maybe YOU are the problem and you should probably just shut up and play the game. Maybe make a vet yourself and get a power sword lol
