The end all solution to Weaves

:frowning_face: I liked Dark Omens. Its not top 3 or anything but I thought it was a good map.

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Well, fair if you liked it. I just feel like it’s 90% narrow corridor with a really bland and ugly palette and lame finale. People disliked Reikwald Forest in VT1 for being a long corridor, but at least it was a pretty corridor!

Tbf, Darktide would prolly still be better mechanic wise over Back 4 Blood.

Did you get into the beta for Back 4 Blood? They have melee options but it’s so unbelievably awful.

So you have to admit. The one thing Fatshark got right was the melee because not even big name companies can replicate it.

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I think to solve the Weaves problem, one should first look at the goal of the game mode and contrast that with the problems that have emerged, after now 4 seasons.

The goal:

So you should be aware that this mode is primarily meant for well-rehearsed teams and not for wildly thrown together players or solo players. Therefore, I would say that this goal has been achieved.
The only problem is that the weaves don’t really get progressively harder. The mode is simply poorly optimized. The problem that underlies this, in my opinion, is that both spawns, map and wind, and end event are thrown together anew from existing scripts without really testing these combinations. In the current Season 4, Weave 140 and 143 are probably by far the hardest (personal opinion), but even these can be mastered entirely without “cheese”. @Samoly has also recorded this here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAmPY1OHgzI

I’ll be upfront and honest at this point, I didn’t make it this way with my team.
Which could also be because the spawns are no longer 100% scripted. This was also requested in previous seasons and I think it also makes sense to bring more variety into the mode, but then please only for QP Weaves, as it can simply come to unfair advantages and disadvantages for the competitive part.
Another factor that is particularly problematic in the Weave 140 shown in the video, are the arbitrary spawns of specials, at the beginning the spawn location of the Rattlinggunner for example, in other Weaves also the type of specials that can spawn (these also seem to be no longer fixed in every case).

The solution to these problems should be very simple: playtesting and bugfixing before the season starts and fixed spawns in Ranked Weaves. On the subject of cheesing in Weaves, I can only say that this will always be there as long as the Battle Wizards ultimate exists in its current form.

What should be changed in my opinion to make the weaves better?

First of all, I support the removal of the timer. You can tie the time to the points, but it should not determine victory or defeat. Without the timer, other tactics and playstyles can be used, opening the door for players who don’t want to cheese or rush through the level.

Variety and a fresh look for new seasons is another important aspect. Currently we have 10 maps and 8 winds. 10 maps that consist of parts of existing maps. So they don’t “really” offer variety to the main game and they don’t really differ from each other within the winds, except that the crystals have a different color. I think the mode would benefit the most if new maps were themed and built around the winds and the enemies were themed as well. The impact of the weave modifications should also be more significant.
You could also think about dedicating a season to only one wind and using different modifications that are adapted to the wind, instead of only one modification per wind. I am aware that this would be too much of a rework, but I still wanted to keep it as an idea.
I would also prefer to have more varied seasons that are longer and allow more preparation time for the following season.

The scope and rewards. Players should be able to decide for themselves at which difficulty they start. Whether from 0-40, 40-80, 80-120 or 120-160. Rewards should unlock the underlying difficulties as in the main game. Furthermore, the quality of the rewards should be more worthy than a recolour of the previous season. I think there should be only one frame (no matter on which difficulty level you finished the weaves), the different difficulty levels could simply be expressed with different colorings of the little box where the level is e.g. bronze/silver/gold/diamond or green/blue/orange/red. The frames could also be animated (the possibility exists), why don’t you just add some small blazing flames to the current frame, some glittering stars to the white one, something like that?

Now to come back to the OP, I don’t agree with most of the ideas listed here, as you can probably already tell, at least in the area of Ranked Weaves. Except for the ideas about leaderboards. I’m not a big fan of the leaderboard in general, but it should at least be fair and honor the overall performance and not just the one highest weave you played. That’s why I think the additive variant is really good.

But as mentioned here several times, we probably won’t be able to expect big jumps anyway, if at all. Maybe we don’t deserve it, there was this one passage in the Franz Lohner Chronicles:

If ever there was a gamedev who liked reminding everyone that he’s the big shark, it’s Fatshark, and they probably reckon we’ve been getting a bit uppity of late.

or something like that… :smirk:

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I would have to disagree here.

Fatshark’s main goal was a game mode with replayability but most groups don’t make it to the end and when the other groups do, they don’t play the Weaves anymore.

I would say they have failed their main goal which is why it needs to be changed.

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To quote the blogpost again:

As far as I understand, replay value was never the intention of the Weaves… but an increasingly difficult mode. That some players fail at a certain point is completely normal with the concept. That some players eventually reach the end, due to the fact that it just does not scale endlessly, is also normal. Unfortunately, I can’t see in any sentence in this post that the replay value is the main goal.

I completely understand the frustration of players who may not find a solid team, who just can’t get ahead at a certain point and then just give up and say the game mode is bad. As I said, at the moment it just takes a lot of initiative to find a team and also a lot of strength and nerves to bite through the weaves, which is why I also suggested that you basically get the same frame (just with a different color of the little box in which the level is) no matter at what level you beat the 40 weaves and a longer seasond duration. You could also change the matchmaking by searching for a certain range of weaves instead of single weaves. But even there I don’t see a big added value, because in my experience it simply needs fixed teammates and no “randoms” that you leave again after 1-2 attempts or you are left.

I see the weaves more like a journey and not like something that has to be repeated day after day.
But, we just seem to disagree on that. I think the main goal is basically achieved… but everything around it is just not harmonious. Therefore I don’t agree with the suggestions in the main post, because for me it completely misses the point of the Weaves, but maybe I’m completely wrong.

We should just wait and see what the Chaos Wastes will bring and whether they might meet the demands of those who are not satisfied with the basic idea of the Weaves.

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Maybe because they have the actual sales numbers and also know how much they needed to invest to make these map packs? It is very easy for a company to determine if something is profitable or not. Vermintide 1 has shown that there is a decreasing interest with each map pack. Which is additionally worsened with their DLC policy concerning maps. Changing that one didnt work out due to community backlash. So they alternative is to not going further with more maps as they are not profitable. I also don’t get the point of more maps. They don’t add really much more diversity. They are interesting for a few times than you know them again. The goal should be to increase diversity for the game which can be done by creating careers or alternative game modes.

As for Weaves: They just need to presentation and the accessibility of the Weaves (and difficulty scaling for 120 +). The maps themselves are more than fine and interesting. The static spawns are also something new and make for a different gameplay. If I want random I have the vanilla mode, Deeds, Weekly Quests and Twitch. There is more than enough to satisfy the crowd who want this.

Fringe theory: Weaves will only be changed (especially the area 120+) as soon as no team will beat them.

This is also kind of why I don’t like weaves as the focus of anything to be fixed or honestly as a concept in general. By their very nature they don’t cater to the larger Vermintide audience. In a game with a lager population with more frequent updates a high end game mode for the most skilled makes sense. But where we are now I think it makes more sense to focus on a more accessible game mode especially one that’s easier to broach for new players.

My main question as it relates to this. Is it a problem with maps not being desired content, or is it just that the way they have been monetizing maps has been bad. I’d be curious to see what cosmetic sales with free maps looks like in contrast. I agree selling the maps themselves as DLC probably isn’t great. I’m still not sold that maps aren’t the way to continue with content because they still very much are the main content.

This is sort of true but deeds are a lot of fun but there’s no QP for opting into them. Players have to either discord or snag players out of normal QP to do them. Asking for a weave revamp, feels like its a game mode players don’t want to play they are trying to make good. While deeds is the game mode players like playing that has poor accessibility and support. Same with winds and weekly event, just throw that stuff into deeds because players like winds and twins, so why not leverage it.

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Actually, it was and Fatshark said it numerous times before and after Winds of Magic released.

Read the highlighted part.

Source: WoM

Source: WoM2

Source: WoM3

Those are just a few examples but, yeah, it was their main attention to make a game mode with replayability.

I don’t know how you missed that as almost every article before WoM released had some Fatshark dev talking about it. It was even mentioned in several after the fact.

Again, you are wrong.

Untitled3

Source: WoM4

Considering all the people who have completed all the Weaves either legitimately or by cheating/cheesing the game, I would say that Winds of Magic has essentially failed.

I mean Weaves are great until a certain point but then it’s near impossible to find people and even if you do find people, most will quit playing Weaves.

It’s a failed game mode. It needs to be fixed or removed from the Store.

I cannot in good faith recommend this expansion at full price considering 90% of it is unplayable to most players.

The proof is in the Lobby Browser.

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Sadly, weaves are a lot more dead than that: deeds need a rework but at least most of the time when I ask randoms if they want to do a deed the answer is “sure”. I can’t say the same for weaves.

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If I could give you an award for this I would.

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I agree with you. I think part of the reason is sort of a misunderstanding caused by SoB’s reception.
Most players have been miffed about the recolors - I strongly agree - and as a consequence didn’t buy the DLC, as they already had access to the maps. This has been esacerbated by the problem with matchmaking making them turn up all the time, and their lenght.
I agree with all these points, except the fact that the maps were free: in VT1 you could play them for free by a friendly host, and this generous policy was what made me buy them all in the end: because I got more vermintide to play and fall in love with.
Sadly, it seems to me FS took the wrong lessons from that: locking content, and “the maps don’t sell”.
Although those maps are a bit long, and blightreaper could do away with the finale, or have a quicker boss fight instead, I really appreciate the design of those maps, and those big open areas with different paths. I’ve had a lot of fun with the exploration challenges as well.
I fear, as is becoming usual for them, instead of fixing what was wrong, they just scrapped the idea alltogether. Or possibly, they have figured out that selling hats or careers at the price of a map-pack is just more convenient.

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Apologies for the off-topic, but might as well rant on this. Frankly it’s a bit baffling for me that we’ve had a single batch of premium hats in more than one year, and that at almost 3 years in this game’s life cosmetics in general are in a far worse state than Verm1. At this point I’m wondering if there’s ever going to be a change for the better. Concerning outfits, we have to choose either between recolors of the same uniform or the classic Verm1 apparel but stuck with the old hat. Furthermore, the various pieces generally don’t match at all and turn the game into some kind of circus where you have knights running around in green armor, golden helmets and wielding purple swords. Zero sense of Fashiontide. Slaanesh weeps.

I don’t understand why they never released a paid dlc allowing players to change the glow of their red illusions in the official realm. There’s no way this wouldn’t have made them filthy rich and it’s not like someone could use it to ruin your experience any further. You can’t go beyond the abomination I described above even if you tried. Or the sight a Slayer running around in red trousers, with white glowing hammers and wearing a shark hat.

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RIP to Fashiontide

This right here is a huge red flag. They did it! They released free maps, the maps were good and they added a new shop and premium cosmetics to fund it. I was so excited. I bought some premium hats hopped on and earned a nice little pile of shillings. I saved up so I could buy just the bestest earnable hat (or weapon) that shillings could buy (I did buy a Bardin beanie because after 500 hours it hadn’t dropped). What was the best hat shillings could buy? The same Bardin beanie in 4 different colors. Where were the new hats? Its a cosmetic shop and all I see are the same cosmetics I already have.

Oh you know what could have been cloned and I probably would have bought? The two handed variants of 1H skins I like for the Dual hammers. Where are the weave skins? Where are new weapon skins?

And here is the second red flag because the Fatshark answer basically amounted to something along the lines of it being difficult to make cosmetics…You know ya’ll are the ones that made the cosmetics shop right? If you build it they will come? We came to the shop to get new swag and there was very little to be had. My pile of shillings has doubled since the beta, the new feature has failed to hook me.

I like a good cosmetic shop I wanted to be jazzed about it, but it was a one two punch. Build shop, then add cosmetics. The second part has me tapping my feet.

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I’ll leave aside that article 1 also claims that

The expansion doesn’t include any new missions or maps, but it more than makes up for those omissions elsewhere.

Article 2 refers to this very map “Dark Omens” and I also only see “Press Release” as a source for article 3…none of these sources is an official statement of FatShark. Maybe aspects weren’t communicated clearly either, again this may be due to FatShark’s communication skills… or new decisions were made during development, either way, does it still matter?

Regardless, if we assume that WoM would scale endlessly and provide that desired replay value, what would that change about the problem of players not wanting to continue playing at a certain point because of the difficulty or because it’s too hard to find people? Nothing! The replayability of such a mode reaches its end exactly at the point where the player is no longer willing to continue.

That’s why I don’t think it’s fair to say that the Weaves themselves are a fundamentally flawed game mode. It’s just like @Sevensreturn already said:

The Weaves are simply not aimed at the majority of players. It’s probably not a good game mode for Vermintide 2, and I agree with @Sevensreturn that resources should be put into game modes that appeal to the majority. But is it necessary to fundamentally change Weaves for that? I don’t think so, because as @Adelion already pointed out:

there are already enough other options for the masses (Weave QP included). That the mode still has its flaws is undisputed I think.

I can’t either, precisely for the reasons listed above. Does it need to be fundamentally rebuilt because of that? I don’t think so. Does it have to be removed from the store because of that? I don’t think so either. What I found unjustified from the start, though, is that the expansion includes both Beastmen and Cataclysm, thus “forcing” the masses to buy the entire package just to unlock the new faction, even though the expansion is basically aimed at the, I don’t know, top 10% of players. Here I see a need for change in the store. The rest I just do not agree, even if my opinion should be wrong. :man_shrugging:

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Locking an enemy faction is bonkers. They should design missions to be thematically correct not “it spawns what they paid for” seems like hamstringing their own potential. Or it’ll just get walked back anyway when they need them for new maps. My main issue with WoM is how terrible of a position it puts the game in going forward.

If cosmetics could sell the game, then what I would like to see is a freeing of the old DLCs. literally just give that stuff for free so that new players get even more value out of the base game. If the map based DLC isn’t making that much money anyway and the cosmetics do then don’t gate the levels.

The biggest impediment to the cosmetic shop, at least from my viewpoint, are that it’s still butting heads with the old pay method. This makes the game look really unfriendly to newcomers and like its trying to pay gate everything. The second problem is that the cosmetic shop is still underwhelming. Like why not release some maps and then a themed armor set to go with that content expansion? Earned cosmetic shop is lacking too but that’s a different matter.

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yeah this is the part that really sucks for me since like, I WANT to be able to recommend it like I can all the other DLC but like…I just can’t

at best I can say “well the weapons are good”

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Alot of links to the weaves and how they planed for them to be replayable, but the most mind boggling link is missing.
This is from ab AMA that was posted by FS on reddit after WoM got bombed.

"In this case, we might have made a game mode that doesn’t necessarily appeal to the majority of our core audience, but certainly some of them find Weaves to be their jam - finding metas to tackle ever increasing challenges or difficult curated situations. "

Wanna do the Sodom and Gomorrah bet and find one person that was actually into weaves from start to finish? Failing to find one will obviously contain some smiting.

They probably still think Weaves are fine, which is why we only get changes someone does during his coffee break. It certainly isnt caused by a lack of feedback or ideas on how to make them interesting.

The fear of this happening again sits quite deep and is anything but impossible to happen again. Feedback, even when they specifically ask for it, seems to go this route.

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As mentioned before, I really think that at this point we should just wait and see what the Chaos Wastes expansion will bring. FatShark has obviously overloaded themselves, new classes, Chaos Wastes, Darktide… that’s a lot they’ve taken on. Unfortunately also at the expense of the community’s goodwill. One can only hope that there will be a turnaround afterwards. Otherwise, most threads will probably derail in resignation and incomprehension until further notice.