If it isn’t a comparison why did you bring it up in the first place? You tried to use another example to justify a point - comparing one thing to another.
I’ve played horror games such as Outlast and never needed to adjust lighting because the darkness was utilized in a way that you can deal with it via night vision but doing so was a detriment when it came to relying on batteries. Deep Rock Galactic also utilizes darkness well in that you have infinite free flares that you can toss out + a headlamp, however the flares have only a few charges and a cooldown while the headlamp light doesn’t extend too far out.
You are also comparing players who dislike the horror element with the result of increasing light to those who are simply fed up with bad game design and are frustrated with gameplay elements having to increase the light.
Once more I will say that Blightreaper the darkness isn’t frustrating to deal with unless you join a game in complete darkness (bad game design). Hunger in the Dark you have bad level design combined with a mechanic that is difficult to control depending on the situation which increases the amount of frustration.
This is your opinion, but you can’t force it like an objective fact. For this reason I said "you hate darkness, ok, but we have tons of maps and only two of them have that mechanics.
You said this, I said “make the gameplay more unique, fun and hard”. Opinions.
I’m sorry to say this, because I REALLY HATE who says “git gud”… but if you find “unfair” fight an alone boss into a relatively small circle… there is need of a little bit more experience.
I find that there are tons of situations much much much harder.
Two players can kill a boss without even taking a step. The illuminated arena is big enough to kill the boss in solo…
I repeat: I agree that Fatshark should fix some bosses’ spawns… but it’s a general speech, not linked to darkness. Rather there are many bosses’ spawns, without darkness, much more unfair.
??? Man, you are making a tragedy because you can’t fight an horde following a very slow cart… do you know that expert players fight every horde while moving on?
Apart this I’m not saying that Blightreaper is harder than Hunger… I’m saying that Blight’s darkness isn’t just atmosphere. And, I’m sorry to say that, it’s pretty objective.
Hunger:
you have to follow a cart for 3… 5 mins?
you could need to fight an alone boss in a “”“small area”“”;
you have less control over the light;
Blight:
one player (or two) has to carry the torch, they are less reactive;
pacing is slower (because, for pacing, you need damage, not stagger);
it’s much longer;
you have to fight near the torch;
you could need to fight a boss in a tight corridor (because yep, Blight too can spawn a boss in a small area);
in a game where enemies spawn on you and they hit you thtough a silent backstab… be forced to swap weapons more often is anyway a malus;
follow an human player is more complicate than follow an AI cart.
As you can see, pro and cons.
Apart this, both maps have the same problems (specials, patrol, boss into the darkness)… both have dark and illuminate areas (Blight is longer but it has more braziers/wall torches… a good compromise).
I repeat again: problems (because they exist, I agree with you) must be fixed in both maps and in the game in general… but dark area doesn’t mean unfair area. Every player has different opinions and it’s legit try to make happy everyone (not always, clearly).
Fighting a boss in the darkness section of Hunger in the Dark is awful because there’s not a lot of room, only one small light source and a lot of confusion. To be honest I didn’t even know there was a boss trigger in there since that just sounded so ridiculous, but it happened and there was very little I could do, since bots don’t do well. Other than that I have little issue with darkness sections. Having to spawn in darkness is quite bad too, but that’s just the fact that loading in can take such a long time.
The problem with the darkness isn’t the darkness; it’s the lack of control over the source of light. The car is the problem in that you need to be close to the cart but when you’re fending off SV and other stuff saying close pales into insignificance.
I was very happy when the torch was introduced into the “dungeon” map in VT1 because it was a reference to the mechanic that was in WarhammerQuest - a game I love from my youth.
It doesn’t transfer into online games so well though.
I’d be just happy with light sources people could shoot to light the area for minutes, light an oil lamp. I think it’ll stay as it is though.
Since when does “parameter”, “can”, “less outliers”, “possible”, “imo” mean objective fact? Putting words into my mouth doesn’t help your side at all, more so when you state “you hate darkness” which again… isn’t true. If you took the time to read my responses you would have easily found that I provided at least 2 examples of games that I find darkness to be well done: Outlast and Deep Rock Galactic. For the umpteenth time: It isn’t darkness that I dislike when it comes to Hunger in the Dark (and to another extent the weekly darkness event) but the execution.
If you have any respect for other people’s responses you should take the time to read, comprehend said responses and then write your rebuttal without the usual diatribes of “force it like an objective fact” and “you hate darkness”. If anything you are just insulting me not only with your blanket statements but also the lack of care put into your own responses.
Once again the word “can” is used which allows a lot of wiggle room as it isn’t an absolute. Sigh… This exact word means that there is the potential for those to be frustrated with the mechanic and how it is utilized when other’s (yourself in this case I would assume) would see it as a positive.
Oh do not apologize. I always find it amusing when people lean on the usual adages of “git gud”. It lowers the intellectual value of their responses and I am more inclined to understand where they are coming from - in this case my assumption would be lack of effort in writing and lack of perspective, but please… continue to throw about generic phrases around to try and prop up your own stance.
As I have stated (and as you continue to ignore the entirety of said statements): “doesn’t accommodate all types of monsters well”. A Rat Ogre can be dealt with rather easily due to poor design in how it can lock onto a repeated attack pattern that has it fixate on one target until it dies (unless something changes it’s aggro). Chaos Spawn has attack patterns that do not have it sit in one spot which goes against the whole “without even taking a step” unless you can provide actual proof. Bile Troll, unless it is zerged down with enough dps, has the area denial attacks which can be more difficult to avoid in such a small room and even harder should the fight be in darkness - it’s attack patterns are also more varied which should lend well to the idea of sidestepping, dodging and moving around with more then “a step” (really…?). Stormfiend can sometimes switch back and forth in between aggro unless you have to deal with it hopping up and down ledges (drop off area in Hunger has 2) or making use of area denial (again… small room). Minotaur, though I am not well versed in combating it as it’s still newer then other monsters, I believe has attack patterns that will have a player move around more then “a step” - perhaps in that small room there is enough maneuverability to deal with the Minotaur.
Yet another amusing case of taking a bit of a statement, throwing it over it’s head, and then trying to insult me while you are at it with your “git gud” mentality. Your efforts to try and communicate while scrambling to maintain some sort of egotistical advantage in the conversation is rather quite vain but I will continue to humor you.
If you read what you yourself wrote you made it sound like dropping a torch would mean taking damage when a horde showed up. You negated to mention any reality when it comes to having sound prompts and time for horde to get to you which would allow time to set up a kill zone and drop said torch in a decent location. I am unsure if you are going for willful ignorance so as to prop yourself up but it seems like your efforts are woefully lacking in that regard.
Your statement set up the idea that a horde would instantly pop up around you while you are holding the torch resulting in vulnerability when dropping the torch to deal with said horde. Now I will admit that Fatshark has had bugs that resulted in hordes instantly spawning in formation within sight so I will grant you that. Anything beyond that is absurd.
Yes you have to follow the cart for some time while dealing with ambient enemies, events, specials and so on. Should you take a bit too long you might have an ambush or horde as well. Time of completion would be varied because of those reasons while also having skill level have an impact on top of that.
Yes fighting a boss monster in an uneven small room. Taking time to lure it back and then dealing with which even boss it is (difficulty obviously varying - steps taken also varied lawl). Time wasted on said lure to the only decent area to fight it in and then fighting the actual monster itself (kill time dependent on classes/item set up as well btw…) can rather easily end up with a horde / ambush showing up not to mention other specials joining the fight in a “small area”.
Less control of the light is putting it lightly. The only control you have is it hitting a check point and being near/away from the cart. Otherwise you have an object taking up a lot of space in the radius of light (as opposed to a torch) and you cannot take that light anywhere should you need to retreat or move away from the light source.
Blightreaper you have 2 torches that can be placed accordingly before a horde/ambush/patrol/monster encounter on top of a lot of instance of natural lighting + the braziers. Fighting with a torch is fine for a character that wants to hold back a bunch of normal enemies and can be good with temp health on cleave and the stagger debuff makes enemies more susceptible to damage from other players (stagger = damage btw… not sure if you knew that or not…).
Fighting near the up to 2 torches and braziers yup. In a level design that has circular loops and not a dead end small room with a small tunnel leading out. A boss fight or patrol can more easily be dealt with if you have a path that goes around in a circle (only 1 spawn point for a boss in that area btw).
Boss spawn you have a lot more room to maneuver around and it isn’t at all “tight corridor”, if anything it’s the size of Hunger in the Dark but in a circular pathing so you have plenty of room to retreat, dodge, side step and so on - all bosses fit Blightreaper’s level design better then Hunger in the Dark.
If the game has any point of “enemies spawn on you” that is clearly a bug/glitch that Fatshark would have to fix. Not sure what you are talking about there as clearly that would be a game design flaw. Not something I would choose to prop up any sort of argument. Silent backstabs is also a bug/glitch… why are you even bringing this up lol? Also torches have decent stamina so blocking 1 random enemy is generally easy to do. I agree that audio and spawns in VT2 can be wonky but clearly that is problem with Fatshark’s spaghetti noodle programming as opposed to intentional gameplay.
Following up to 2 human players with torches is far easier then the weekly event because Blightreaper has a very set level design to accommodate those torches / braziers so getting lost is less of a problem (unless you spawn in darkness - game design flaw again). I could say having a human player constantly move the AI cart forward and move it beyond the check points can also be problematic as the rest of the party may be dealing with other issues. Both torches and the cart can have their detractions when interacted with human players.
I agree that there are pros and cons to either map when it pertains to the darkness mechanic but I believe Blightreaper’s execution of said mechanic is better plus the level design is far more accommodating then Hunger in the Dark (in my opinion obviously). They do not have the same exact problems.
Darkness to me doesn’t equate to unfairness but how darkness is utilized can have an impact on the enjoyability of said mechanic in which case I dislike Hunger in the Dark for that very reason. Blightreaper I am 100% fine with the dark portion of the map and my only dislike is the terrible anticlimactic ending which had zero Chaos Warlords or leaders of any sort try to claim the Blightreaper - something they set up in the actual trailer.
Every person does indeed have their own opinion and I’m fine with that. Skewing my own opinion is something that I dislike seeing. If I believe someone is ignoring facts or reason I will refute that.
Yep, there is a trigger. You have to wait the horde in the illuminated area, rush until the boss trigger (it’s very near), come back in the illuminate area (if the boss is spawned). Try it, it’s a little bit “intricate” but it works very well.
I agree, players should not spawn into the darkness.
Calm down. You explained your reasons, but this doesn’t make them automatically true. You talked about specials that can see you through darkness and cast they spells from nowhere. I answered: “I AGREE”.
About patrols? I agree here too.
But if you tell me that you can’t fight a boss (4 players vs 1 boss) in the illuminated area… you need more practice. Because it’s totally doable.
Moreover Vermintide has tons of harder situations. This problem is NOT linked with darkness.
And once again I repeat my words. Everyone has different tastes. It’s impossible to make everyone happy. Do you get frustrated by that darkness? PATIENCE. You can survive this. I get frustrated by the ABSENCE of darkness (for example in Blood into the Darkness). Patience again, I will survive too.
The difference is that the great majority of maps haven’t dark areas.
Then let other players have fun.
Maybe this… or maybe people can’t accept that it’s their fault and they don’t want improve theirself ^^
I continue to say that 4 players vs 1 boss is an easy win is EVERY situation… if you find unfair it I can just say that you need more practice, since I see a lot of players do it without problems. Then you are free to think that I ended my reasons, etc etc. I don’t care.
It’s easier assume a passive/aggressive behavior than understand the others.
Let me do a stupid example: X player says “Please Fatshark, nerf Veteran difficulty, it’s too hard”. Don’t you find reasonble answer to him “You need more practice” (kindly and motivating the answer)?
If you think that my posts are just a “git gud”, it’s not my fault. My conscience is fine.
To be brief: you have to follow the torch carrier, you are forced to fight near torches, you have less damage for pacing, and nope… often specials are an instant-spawn. Blight’s darkness change your gameplay exactly like Hunger’s one (where you have to follow the cart).
I repeat: I don’t want to start a discussion about “what darkness is harder”. I don’t care. I only explained because both dark areas change your gameplay and why I don’t think that Hunger is unfair.
I never stated my opinions are 100% factual. Clearly you cannot discern words that lend well to choice and your absolute refusal to see these words and apply them in the correct way is truly saddening to see.
I never stated that I cannot fight a boss in the illuminated area. Just that it is annoying to do and from a gameplay perspective the level design to me doesn’t complement a boss fight nearly as well as Blightreaper.
If the problem isn’t linked with darkness why do you say to fight a boss in the illuminated area? Clearly you don’t need any light to deal with a boss because a problem is clearly “NOT linked with darkness”. Please…
I already suspected that either your understanding of the English language isn’t very good or it isn’t your primary language. The quoted response is a lot of blather that is in no way related to the quote you chose to respond to. If anything you are just trying to sound more intelligent by repeating my lead up of “once again…”. Nice attempt.
I have stated multiple times that it isn’t about darkness that frustrates me but how it is used and what mechanics are linked to said darkness. Multiple times specified, multiple times ignore by you.
This is an assumption that your party is all up at that point. The respawn system can sometimes be wonky where those who need to be recued are all in the large room with the curving ramp / tome. In any case my opinion still stands that the uneven room is too small for a boss fight and that it doesn’t complement all bosses very well. Another assumption is aimed at my skill level - something that I never really talked about yet you assume that I think it unfair and that I need more practice when in reality I just believe by design it’s flawed. Just like how patrols should have a way to avoid them a boss fight should have enough space to comfortably deal with it (all bosses - even those with aoe area denial).
More like you don’t know what assumptions are but you clearly make use of said assumptions multiple times to the detriment of those you are responding to. It’s rather insulting and annoying to deal with because I feel like I’d have to lower my communication to such a level so as to get to your understanding.
You can drop torches before a horde and most likely ambush occurs. You can fight with said torch to stagger many normal enemies which allows other characters to deal more damage while also possible getting a lot of temp health due to high cleave of the torch.
Specials having instant spawns is again a bug/glitch that Fatshark would need to address. I know that Gutter Runners are in a current bad spot due to this. What should always happen with anything is you have an Audio Cue followed by some time before the enemy/enemies get to you. Blightreaper has better map design in the dark area and better light management in my opinion.
And yet you would lure a boss to the illuminated area while maintaining that “problem is NOT linked with darkness”. Darkness is a detriment to fight in and because you don’t have decent lighting you fall back to a place where you actually have enough light to fight a boss comfortably. Blightreaper you don’t have to fall back to a well lit area. You can take the time it takes the boss to get to you to set up a double torch / brazier kill zone and deal with said boss.
As for your post script I only mention those possibilities due to wasting time luring the boss back to said illuminated room to fight it. That loss of time may then result in further spawns occurring faster then say in Blightreaper where a large retreat wouldn’t be as necessary of a thing.
Darkness can be a good mechanic, and I really liked it when it first came out on the Dungeons map as I felt it was a reference the Warhammerquest as staying near to the lantern holder was a key part of the tabletop game.
In Hunger in the dark I reckon my deaths/wipes are 80-90% in that darkness bit. Either a gunner or something we can’t shoot or a boss pounds someone into the darkness. It is possible that simply removing the boss trigger might make it more palatable… on the other hand, going back to the original darkness in the Drakenfels VT1 DLC, having a rat ogre lumber out of the darkness to fight was really good - but then you had maybe 3 torches (I cant remember) to be able to plan and set up your own defensible position.
Adding a single torch that the players could carry might change the dynamics of that part of the Hunger map.
It’s annoying from YOUR perspective, not the gameplay one.
You said “Illuminated area it’s too small to fight the boss”. Apart that it’s big enough, there are tons of situations, in the entire game, where you have to fight a boss into small areas. Even smaller.
And I said that, apart some problems where I agree (specials that cast from nowhere into the darkness), I’m sorry that some mechanics bore you… patience. Fatshark can’t build the entire game around you. For example I’m bored with the fact that dark maps are only two.
I love those mechanics (as other players) and the maps without darkness are already the great majority.
Multiple times specified, multiple times ignore by you.
This is valid for the entire game… there are tons of situations (without darkness) that need much more coordination.
You answered yourself. YOU believe. Your legit opinion. I find it’s a very comfortable place where fight a boss.
And I continue to say that you use a passive/aggressive behavior because you can’t accept the truth…
You can’t drop the torch for every ambient enemy (this would slow you down), then pacing is slower (and nope: vs ambient it’s much more efficient when every player inflicts damage… shielded weapons slow the pacing down for this reason).
You can drop the torch before an horde, but you are forced to fight near the torch.
Not every special’s instant spawn is a bug. In many cases you hear the sound when they spawn… and you lose seconds to drop the torch.
Darkness doesn’t let you to see far enemies.
The torch carrier can be unprepared and mess up the situation.
I said that small areas where fight a boss aren’t a problem linked with darkness (since you said that area is too small), there are many tight places where you must fight a boss.
That you are forced (you aren’t, it’s only easier) to go back is clearly linked with darkness… but I love it, I love how darkness adds a challenge and it changes your gameplay.
Nice job responding to a reply that was not addressed to you while nitpicking specific phrases or words rather then addressing the whole.
If you are going to try and respond to my comments at least do me the favor in knowing what you are responding to because that quote that you are using is earlier stating words that are not absolutes.
Obviously it’s of my opinion that the execution of the darkness in Hunger in the Dark is bad design. I gave my reasons as to why which you clearly ignored as you simply jumped on something you believe you could easily disprove while only proving your ineptitude in writing reasonable responses.
Well just had a glorious run in Hunger in the Dark with the fantabulously designed drop off cart baby sitting mechanic that ended in stupidity on Legend.
Our team leapt valiantly down the hole of oblivion and upon hearing the chortling of many furred friends, I elected to hang back in the entrance tunnel between light and dark while the rest of the merry adventures trundled onward with the cart.
It was easy going even with the Shade Elf Host getting downed and then immediately quaffing a health potion only to get poked again down to near zero health while I was wisely staying back. The 3 Amigo’s continued on with their Escort Mission of Utmost Importance and once the ambush ended I moved forward to rejoin them.
A few paces in upon said rejoining we get the Chaos Spawn Boss Audio Prompt. Good thing I sayed back yes? Upon hearing the sound I use the “Come Hither!” ping in hopes that the rest of the party would be smart enough to retreat to the tunnel and the Light’s Salvation beyond. They weren’t.
While waiting an Assassin managed to get through my ranged attack so I was downed. Kruber gained a few points into Intelligence and was coming back, Chaos Spawn in tow, Shade Elf disappeared (as in, got downed and killed) while Saltzpyre continued to slog forward with the mine cart oblivious to the boss and the world in all it’s entirety.
Kruber reached me. Spawn is behind him. It looks like he might get close enough to pointlessly try and revive me when the Hentai Nightmare scooped him up in it’s loving embrace while Kruber baldly states: “help”. Of course the Spawn elects to please him and bashes him into the ground multiple times until his expiry date is reached. Spawn wants some more action so goes for the more pleasing target that being Sienna (me) and continues to fist pound most vigorously.
Saltzpyre in the meantime is slowly choo-chooing up the ramp, dutifully escorting the Cart of Greatest Importance. He defeats a Chaos Mauler! But then… hearing the build up of momentum from the Tentacled Beast of Fantastical Proportions he… stays by the cart. The Chaos Spawn elects to shimmy up the side of the ramp so Saltzpyre in all his Glorious Ways chugs down his Concentration Potion with great alacrity. He blocks the pounding with all his might and eventually getting pushed down the Ramp to Victory he lets loose his powerful shot at the Chaos Spawn who is still looking quite healthy and obviously interested in getting to know Saltzpyre even more.
1 fist bump later and Saltzpyre is downed… Or is he?!? Apparently his rage knows no bounds! Green Outline turned Red he valiantly tries to dodge / block back up the ramp to the Salvation that is Mine Cart! What is this new mechanic? How is Saltzpyre invincible? Is it intentional or is it simply madness!
Oh wait… he finally enters the fetal position for the Victorious Chaos Spawn and thus we are greeted with Defeat!
Yup… Still hate Hungry, Hungry, Darkness. Maybe Fatshark can add a torch eventually or expand the room where the drop off point is but even then human players or bots sometimes choose the clearly better option as they play on a higher plane of intelligence.
True story. This happens to everyone, all the time. IT simply needs a torch at the drop down after the first grim so players can at least have some kind of hope of setting up their own area.
I’m actually getting plague-monk-gang-banged to death quite regularly at the end of Old Haunts now. Maybe the idea is to eventually make all the end events so tough as to stop completion of maps and reduce the flow of shillings? MY cynical brain in overdrive.
The problem is just that people try to rush through the darkness. There’s always one player flipping the switch to keep pushing the cart forward, but that’s your light source to fight safely around. The cart stops at the checkpoints to give you a chance to clear out enemies before pushing forward again. It’s not that complicated.
Sorry but fighting near the cart as a light source vs a boss or patrol is a bad idea. Not only is the cart going to move forward but you have both the mine cart and check point switches wasting room to move around unlike a torch which you can run on top of if needed.
This is why you want to move back to the drop off point area if you are actually smart even though imo that room is just a tad bit too small.
Having a torch or lanterns to light as you progress would help alleviate this problem.
@Argonaut14
Pretty sure Old Haunts end event is bugged much like Fort Breakfast. I’ve been experiencing non stop waves of elites in both maps and I’m pretty sure that each wave is supposed to come after placing a gargoyle head / cannon interaction but instead they seem to keep spawning at a certain point (Old Haunts right when you start the event, Fort Breakfast when you need to get the cannon ball).
Fatshark already stated that Fort Breakfast spawns in the event are bugged so I’m pretty sure that is the same case with Old Haunts.
No, the cart doesn’t move forward, unless you hit the switch. You’re supposed to wait there and clear out adds, not try to escort the cart forward through the middle of a fight. And the mine cart & other terrain can be used to funnel enemies; they don’t just block your own movement.
Or just back up into the light, like you suggest. But it just depends how far into the darkness section you are when you encounter enemies. I’m certainly not arguing against backing up; I’m just saying that fighting in the dark isn’t too bad as long as you let the cart stop at the checkpoint instead of trying to rush it forward.
The cart moves forward if you don’t get to the check points or if you hit the switch before getting any audio from a boss or patrol. The mine cart is still a waste of space when it comes to light. Someone with a torch can hold said torch and be in the spot of the mine cart allowing for the rest of the team to more easily utilize the light.
My little story showed how I stayed back to wait for the ambush to be dealt with while everyone else wanted to push on. As soon as I advanced that triggered the Chaos Spawn and yea… fighting in the dark is rather bad when you can’t ping certain enemies and you have multiple targets taking swings at you and you can’t see each attack as well as you could within the light.
As stated I pinged “Come Here!” and was ignored. Blightreaper you have far more control when it comes to 2 torches and braziers without being hampered by a mechanic that manipulates the player into staying near it “always” (as pertaining to the example story) rather then retreating to a more viable combat area to deal with a big threat (ambush, horde, boss, patrol).
edit: Also want to point out that Hunger in the Dark has a picture of Saltzpyre going through a cave system with a torch. More evidence of a missing mechanic that would do well to make up for the weaknesses of the mine cart imo.
I’m not saying the darkness section is not difficult in ways that are different from other maps. It’s just not unfairly difficult. And being difficult in a way that is different from other maps is precisely what makes it interesting.
The only thing I would say that is unfair about darkness is that specials can’t be pinged and special spawns, patrols and monsters don’t always mesh well with the level design in the darkness sections.
Should there be a reasonable light mechanic that is fine and yea it does add to the atmosphere. In my opinion bad level design and bad mechanics utilizing darkness is a detraction that can lend a negativity towards the game.