The Arbites is...a lot. Here's one "Comprehensive" Breakdown

Preface:
I’d like to open first with the clarification that the “Comperhensive” in this post title is a somewhat self aware. Most of the Darktide Content Creators that I’ve seen have played it safe, showing off the Arbites but not really commenting too deeply on how the mechanics of the class interact with the health and balance of the rest of the game. And this is honestly the smart and safe choice. None of the highest leveled players in Darktide have the hours in Arbites that they do in any other class. Making any broad statements about a class that hasn’t really had time to settle, especially before it’s even hit its first patch, is a good way to waste time and potentially lose credibility. That being said, as I’ve recently been doing breakdowns of the classes that have been in the game since launch, I want to share my thoughts on the Arbites and where I think they’re meant to exist amongst the roles of Darktide’s Classes.

As per usual, there will be a TL;DR for those short on time or patience. If you’ve seen any of my other “Comprehensive” Breakdowns regarding the Zealot or the Veteran, you have an idea of what this is going to be like, but unlike those, I’m not suggesting any kind of rework. Instead, this post is purely a breakdown of information and mechanics regarding Darktides newest class and my personal thoughts on the balance of them. It’s my hope that some of the ideas presented here might help others voice/define their own thoughts on the class to better help indicate to Fatshark what does and doesn’t feel good in regards to playing the class. Balancing is ultimately requires iteration, and I want to approach this with the same respect that I"ve tried to maintain for the other two classes I’ve posted about.

Defining the Structure:
I’ll admit, this was difficult. To be blunt, the Arbites right now is easily the strongest class in the game. Being the strongest doesn’t have to mean that the Arbites is the best at everything, but the balancing of the class is such that even the areas they’re weakest in, they’re still extremely capable. They have builds for horde clear and control, ones for boss damage, and ones for elite hunting, and ones for sustain. They can really fill nearly any position if built right. And they can do so nearly as good if not better than the classes that specialize in those areas. While it’s true that every class should be capable of boss damage, or hoard clear, or elite and specialist dueling, and even clutching, if a class is extremely capable if not the best at all of them, then nothing about them stands out aside from that capability. Now, normally I would break down the class by playstyle first, and then the purpose of the nodes. However, considering that the Arbites is newly added, and the class is strong as to have no obvious role it can’t fill on a team, I want to start with purpose first. Looking at the class, you can roughly break up the Class Tree like so:


But this is only a generalization; a cursory glance. Not every Node in the Sustain Category is actually a sustain node. If you break up the class per node, the position of nodes by purpose looks more like this:

Your generalist damage nodes (the excessive force) are things that will give you damage for general actions. Take “Withering Fire” as example. Everyone is going to reload their weapon at some point; the node doesn’t speak to a specific playstyle like the “Duty” Nodes do. As you can see, those Generalist Damage Nodes are mixed fairly evenly with your Sustain Nodes, and both exist on this extremely open grid pattern. It’s not hard to get to any of the options. That’s easily one of the major contributions to this class feeling so overwhelmingly strong, and we can look at the other classes as to why this is. If you look at Veteran and Zealot, their tress are structured in such a way as to make you choose between certain path lines. Theoretically, you can only gain so many sources of sustain and generalized damage before you’re over committing to nodes at the top.

Now, before someone points out that both Veteran and Zealot are possibly currently at their weakest in the game, I would like to point out that this isn’t due to the structure of their class trees but instead due to Node Quantity and Organization. Veteran has too many Nodes that aren’t impactful, while Zealot has too few, and both have their nodes spread out in such a way that makes it really hard to actually seek out certain benefits based upon where they’ve been placed within the structure of the tree:

Ogryn and Psyker share similarly shaped class tree structures to the Arbites very open grid for sustain and general damage nodes, but not only do both classes still have weird node distribution issues that the Arbites doesn’t suffer from, they also, inherently, have survivability challenges that the Arbites does not. Ogryn’s are Big, comparatively slow moving targets, while Psykers are Glass Cannons. Arbites don’t have the challenge of being a big target in addition to being a slow one (and w/ the right passives, they aren’t even a slow class), nor do they have to suffer from being the class with the least base health or toughness.


From memory, Ogryn and Psyker are the last two Classes to have received reworks, so I understand where this structure is coming from, but if you look at the base Health and Toughness of the Arbites when compared to the other classes, they are already beef cakes at base, and this is before benefiting from a Class Tree Structure that gives easy access to even more sustain and damage:




(Pictured above, The Veteran, Zealot, Ogryn, Psyker, and Arbites on “Empty” Builds, with no Talent Points Distributed and no additional Health or Toughness Blessings or Perks from Curios. Take into Consideration that “Arbitrator Armor” and “Plasteel Plates” are unavoidable grabs if you’re investing talent points, which effectively makes the Arbites base toughness before Curios 150 Points. That’s an entire Psyker Base Health Bar regenerating on Kills and in Coherency.)

We’re going to put a pin in this for now, but trust, we will come back to how this decision dramatically effects the balance of the class.

Now, Unlike the original four classes of the game, the Arbites does not have a easily identifiable overarching “Fantasy” it’s meant to fulfil at first glance. Somehow, I don’t think the fantasy of the class is meant to be “Cop”. And things like “Houndmaster” are still to vague to be useful. Luckily, there’s always the personalities to go off, as I do believe that the names of the personalities are based somewhat on the playstyle branches of each tree. For the Arbites, the personalities are The Maul, The Authoritarian, and the Fatalist. The Maul takes an almost Sadistic Pleasure in dishing out Punishment to Offenders of the Lex. The Embodiment of someone looking for an excuse. The Authoritarian is the Prefecture’s Perfect Little Police Officer, or at least the like to think of themselves as such. They see their rigid compliance to the Lex and their own skill as being both natural and one and the same. And then there’s the Fatalist, who reads as not exactly nice, but more like a burnt out cop trying to do good in a very, very bad city. They want things to be better, to help people through the lex instead of just hurting them. And all that can tell us a lot about their various playstyles.

Now remember, these Personalities and Playstyles are somewhat based on each other. They aren’t meant to be 1 for 1. It’s not mechanically practical to base the entirety of even just a single Branch of the tree on one personality because every personality is meant to be able to use every node. We’ve only brought up the personalities up so specifically because this is a new class, and trying to get a feel for the different branches of the tree is difficult w/out pre-requisite of multiple hundreds of hours played on the class to guide us. This also isn’t the only way to break up the Class Tree, but this is what made the most sense to me based upon natural synergies between Sustain, General Damage, Playstyle, Class Ability, and Keystone Nodes. Breaking up the Class Tree by the Personality Shorthand of Maul, Authoritarian, and Fatalist would look something like this for a General and Per Node Breakdown:

The Arbites has a lot of these nodes that are Dual Branched, in the sense that they give benefits that multiple Branches would be interested in at the same time for different reasons. Their Sustain nodes even double down on this, with options that are useful to all 3 branches at the same time. “Up Close”, “Walk It Off”, “Arbirator Armor”, “Plasteel Plate”, and “Suppression Protocols” all do such broad sustainability that there would be no way to suggest that one is more suited for a one Branch over another. Now, there’s obviously room for debate, but considering I’ve broken down the other classes already, I can tell you now, none of the other classes are built like this, which makes the Arbites Tree super interesting. While this is just a breakdown based upon the inherent synergies I personally see throughout the Branches, I do think I can qualify a lot of these choices.

In broad strokes, all of the stagger nodes feed into Forceful or Terminus Warrant really well. Forceful is all about Stagger so it pairs up really well w/ Break the Line. And the Shock Mines further lean into a Stagger and Shock Control Playstyle. Meanwhile, the Bonus gained from Elite and Specialist Hunting are a Dead Ringer for Execution Order, but they also play very well with, again, Terminus Warrant. Dog Bomb is also specifically good against Ogryn Elites and Bosses, and Execution Order obviously wants to punch above its weight class w/ all the Rending they get access too. The Firearm focus also makes it a great contender for the use of Castigator Stance. Which leaves Terminus Warrant. There are a surprisingly large number of nodes here that deal w/ dodging, giving you specific benefits for doing so and this reads as a Playstyle incentive to me. Forceful doesn’t want to Dodge, because they have too many survivability incentives tied to blocking and staggering enemies already. And Execution Order gets a bunch of survivability just for killing Elite Targets, the thing that the Keystone is built to do. But Terminus Warrant doesn’t have very much survivability built into it aside from having stacks to kill enemies with, as having those stacks can net you Toughness Regen and Impact, to help push Hordes away. This makes even more sense if you consider the fact that If you take Lone Wolf, and you get boxed in by a horde, and there’s a dog or trapper or sniper or even just multiple Elites like Shotgunners or Ragers pushing your position, the other two branches have dog to get them out of that situation. But without dog, you need your gun to be a powerful enough tool to help you knock back and shoot through the chaff. Where before your dog was backing you up and covering ranged enemies (Forceful) or melee elite enemies (Execution Order), you’re all alone. And the Nuncio-Aquilla is literally just the Judge Dread “I am the law” speech, take your pick of which version. But even that feeds into the idea of the Maul being dodge oriented, as the Nuncio can reduce the rate of enemy melee attacks, making it easier for you to dodge around.

I think, purely in terms of Playstyle Mechanics, there’s a lot of cool node options. The class does suffer from my personal grievance, which is in how it organizes and spreads out all of these nodes, but this is something that all the classes have in some capacity. I’m personally of the mind that this always makes the actual build variety of the class worse, but this is in part due to how much better the Ogryn tree got when more of it’s synergistic nodes were moved to be in the direct path of each other. Based on this, I personally feel that the classes tend to be healthier when the thing incentivizing mixing branches together isn’t the options from each branch being mixed up and jumbled together at base but instead strong generalist options that are useful enough to other builds that you can justify not taking the vanilla option. Beyond that, I don’t really have many complaints about how these nodes are distributed. Ignoring Major Nodes like Auras, Class Abilities, Keystones, and Mods, there are 18 Maul Nodes, 19 Authoritarian, and 18 Fatalist nodes. I am counting certain nodes multiple times, but again, this is the only class really built w/ this many nodes that are this general.

Investigating the Effects:
So, i’ve already broken down and alluded to my specific problem in regards to the Arbites Sustain and General Damage Nodes. This is easily the tankiest class based on default Health and Toughness values, and I wanted to establish a connection between those values, the structure of the class tree, and the fact that the class feels significantly overturned early. If I’m going to suggest something is as OP as I’m suggesting the Arbites to be, I feel like I need to back that up. I feel that I left enough information for people to extrapolate, but to be clear, if you are wondering why the Arbites is so busted, it’s not the Blitz, or the Auras, or the Class Abilites, or any of the Keystone options. It’s not even the weapons, as cool and powerful as they are. It’s the fact that the class can become, effectively, feature complete before they even reach their first Keystone options, with enough survivability stacked on top of their already impressive base levels to never go down in the hands of an adept player, and enough general damage options to become and stay incredibly powerful the entire time. Beyond that, the rest of the Arbites tree is honestly fairly mundane, with sensible options and decently clear playstyles. Honestly, some of the options are even a little weak. But in mentioning the playstyles…

Earlier I said I didn’t have many complaints about the distribution of nodes based on playstyles of each branch, and that’s true. I don’t have many complaints. I have one. It’s the dog. Or rather, the Dog Node options. Normally, each Class’s playstyles seem to be largely balanced around the Class Ability of each branch. As example, Fury of the Faithful from Zealot pairs well with Scourge, which pairs well with Blazing Piety. But the Arbites seems to be balanced around their dog. Or more accurately, whether or not they have it. This means that instead of the tree having three gimmicks per class, it has two. But the rest of the Class Tree is still structured and Balanced as if there was a Third Gimmick. This is why, in my assessment of the node by Playstyle, the Authoritarian has 1 more node than the Maul or Fatalist. It feels like the class tree wants you to pick between ranges for the dog. If you pick “Unleashed Brutality”, I’ve found that the dog tends to stay consistently mid range from you. Meanwhile, in my experience with “Go Get 'Em!” the dog tends to wander away a lot more. This kinda seems like an interesting option of a more mid Range, defensive dog, or a further range, more crowd control oriented dog. But Lone Wolf is a non-choice in this set up.

By taking Lone Wolf, yes, you gain a pretty good bonus, but you also lose out on all the Playstyle Incentives that the dog is tied to, and those are incentives that the Maul Playstyle is otherwise built to engage with. This has the knock on effect of turning every dog related option into split branch options for the Authoritarian and the Fatalist, but the truth of the matter is that the Fatalist doesn’t even really wants half of them. They only get included because it’s the only other Branch that can take a dog. And this can be felt through the entire tree. Dog options have to be pushed off to the side as to not get in the way of the Maul’s ability to build w/ Lone Wolf. And I think this shoving around of nodes for this sake makes the Class Tree, especially the bottom half, feel notably worse. The open grid of the first half hides how awkwardly placed a lot of those options are. I’m not trying to suggest that Lone Wolf is bad, but if feels like there has to be a better way to deal with this. Some kind of Lone Wolf caveat, so that the branch can get some kind of benefit from the dog nodes instead of having to avoid them completely.

Proposing Nothing Minor Thoughts:
If I’ve somehow held you attention this long, let me say that I tend to have the mindset of offering practical solutions where I can, and I do have ideas on solutions for some of the problems I personally see and have pointed out w/ the class. The point of this post isn’t to be a rework though, and I don’t plan on touching any ideas on fixing what’s going on in the top half of the class tree. Still, for my smaller complaints, specifically those considering the weaknesses of the Class, I do want to share how I think those issues could be addressed.

IMO, the Dog Nade is very hard to use, and only feels like it gets harder to use the higher in difficulty you move. You mostly want to use the Blitz on Monstrosities, Captians/Champions, and Ogryns. The minute cooldown is long enough that you really want get value out of it. The problem is, since the dog won’t pounce or grapple Captains/Champions or Ogryns, activating the explosion becomes a weird skill shot with sometimes inconsistent timing. If you try and do it when your dog pounces, you’ll be too late. It’s better to try and activate it when you see that it’s about to pounce, but in a horde, it’s hard to see you dog, and sometimes they circle around the target before actually jumping. And no one has time to be watching the dog that closely in the middle of a Horde Fight. I recognize that changing anything about the timing or path finding of the dog might be hard. But again; I want to offer practical solutions. And the one that takes the least amount of work is giving the dog a bark that plays over your vox, with subtitles, and potentially even a character portrait, right before it pounces. Yes, it’s one more audio que in the game all about paying attention to audio ques, but this one would only play on pounce if you were using remote detonation. I feel like this would dramatically lower the skill floor to get value out of the Blitz while also massively increasing the skill ceiling, as now skilled players can do even more things at one time.

Insofar as better incorporating the dog nodes, yeah, I get it, there’s no way to position them as is that won’t feel a little in the way for Lone Wolf builds. But realistically, I would actually prefer seeing them incorporated into the class on a more mechanical level. I think “Lone Wolf Variants” that give you a lesser version of the effect for doing a similar action is a good way to bridge that gap. Take “Canine Morale”, which reads “Killing Pounced Targets grants Allies in Coherency +20% Toughness Damage Reduction and +10% Toughness over 5s.”
If you added “Lone Wolf: Every 5s, Killing a Staggered Target grants Allies in Coherency +10% Toughness Damage Reduction and +5% Toughness for 5s.”
The math there is entirely off the cuff, but the general idea is that those passive nodes actually do something for you if you are giving up the class’s primary gimmick and teamwide safety net. The Hound can really work for you in a satisfying way when the game lets it, and I just want to have to fight it less to get the utility. I even think this could expand to the Remote Detonation Blitz. Human Sized Power Fist are a thing, and that’s one heavy hand of the law for a lexbreaker to bare. Give it some OG Thunder Hammer levels of self stun but a good AoE? But that ultimately feels a little like too much of an ask.

On a small note, I do wish the Dog Keystones were on the top of the tree. Part of this is because not taking your dog is such a dramatic change to the classes playstyle and options that making that choice in the middle of the tree feels…off.

Speaking of having better access to utility, I do think I can see what utility this class would have in a healthier state, at least assuming there’s no massive sandbox changes. The different pieces of kit feels like the Arbites borrowing elements of other classes. Foreceful feels like Heavy Hitter, and has just fantastic levels of Crowd Control and Horde Clear. Using the Crusher on this build made a weapon i’ve always really wanted to explore feel actual viable option. Terminus Warrant feels a bit like weapon specialist, but only on its surface. In practice, I’ve found that the way you build and lose stacks means it’s easier to build up and lose ranged stacks, which meant that I tended to use melee more after building up easy stacks with a shotgun. It’s a real engaging loop. Break the Line feels like an alternate version of Fury of the Faithful. It doesn’t have the massive crit bonus but instead it stuns everyone in the area. Elements like this really make me see this class as one that runs next to and acts as an accoutrement to things that other classes do to enhance the tams capabilities in those areas. The one that feels the worse to me is Execution Order, as it gives so much info that it comes off as better Disrupt Destiny. I can’t tell if it feels overtuned because of its own mechanics or because of the top of the class tree. As of right now, it just feels like it tends to snowball really hard, as once you get a couple specialist or elite kills you can just start chunking through everything. I was running the Extermination Shotgun with Scattershot and Deathspitter and the extra Range Cleave meant that empowered attacks from killing marked targets and the rending criticals were always working in tandem.

My final “for me” thought is in regards to O.M. Nodes. Arbites only has 5 Operator Mods (though I swear Arbirator Armor and Plasteel Plates feel just about as basic), and I’ve seen a lot of people suggesting that every class be brought to that point but the more I go through and breakdown all the classes, the more I disagree with that idea. The Arbites feels like it’s made under the conceit of being two class trees in one; Handler and Hound. You have the basic abilites of your Arbites followed by specific tools and ways in which your dog facilitates the role you’re enhancing on the team, even if that facilitation is in not being there. Really, I think the ideal number of OM on a class is 12, which is 4 necessary OMs per branch, or 13.3% of your total build. If the Arbites is two trees, it kind of makes sense that they have Half as many OM, since each tree theoretically gets half the options. I know people don’t like OMs but they serve really well as connective tissue between branches. Veteran, Zealot, and Psyker have too many, but that doesn’t mean I want to drop to having none. The alternative is more Passive Nodes that don’t actually do anything interesting (again, Arbirator Armor and Plasteel Plates), which is the exact issue that I seen expressed about Veteran especially. I want impactful options; not just for simple ones to be coloured blue. You can fudge the math with that 12 figure a little, like with Ogryn, where the extra connectivity from the missing OMs serve to give the class better access to survivability and general damage options. If a class is too impactful, they’re a good tool to help break up some of those stronger options. But the thing I’d like to emphasize is that they are a tool. Like any other tool, when used well, they feel great. I don’t want their current rough implementation in three of the five classes to convince people to throw out the whole toolbox.

The TL; DR of the Post:
Ultimately, the biggest thing contributing to the Arbites current power level is how open the top half of the class tree is. That combined with some of the highest base Toughness and Health in the game allows the class to become incredibly survivable and consistently powerful without actually having to invest into deeper Class Tree options for their build to go “online”. And when they do invest into some of their further options, they end up feeling like they can perform some of the same roles that other classes are taken for at very near the same efficacy, if not better in some cases.

In a game where certain classes specialize in certain roles or jobs on the team, it is possible for another class to step on their toes. While it’s true that every class should be capable of boss damage, or elite and specialist hunting, or horde clear, classes having specific areas of weakness is what makes them interesting to play. The Zealot being too good at things the Ogryn wanted to do and being more survivable is what made the feel far less viable in the first place, and Fatshark making specific changes to the Zealots Bossing Capabilities and the Ogryns Survivability is what allowed the class to finally shine. Arbites currently has a relationship with every class that feels like the OG Zealot to Ogryn relationship. Anything they can do, Arbites can do easier, if not better.

The games current balance can’t rally support that level of constant power, and while it is true that changes to the Sandbox in terms of enemy numbers, health values, or abilities might actually give the Arbites a challenge, doing so without updating the other classes would mean that the Arbites continues to be the strongest option, as every other class is only as viable as it is relative to the current state of the game.

Aside from the top of the tree, their options are largely fine, with actual engaging utility, but the class is so overturned that its hard to enjoy the specific utility provided because just killing everything before you ever would need to fall back on a specific tool in the kit is unironically just the easier answer the majority of the time. Some of those options, in a vacuum, actually feel a little bit weak, but some slight changes to how certain abilities are signaled to the player could easily remedy that.

9 Likes

the main “problem” with arbites, due to his many failsafe talents, is it lets you get equal to better results with “sloppier” gameplay, thus enforcing wrong behavior and maybe frustration to newer/lesser skilled players once they broaden their character pool.

in the hands of the majority i’ve played with most of the time i saw


the darktide version of THIS and the perpetrator still went “unpunished”

most other classes, with ogryn giving admittedly the most leeway, got a counter or two (dogs, nets, biting more than toughness regeneration can chew, yes even with confident strike) that meet you with the reality of your way not getting you any further.

arbites lets you go on and on like the duracell bunny except for net, thats the only hardcounter left.
dogs get dogged, outta toughness you pop castigator and keep flailing which due to 4 or 5 toughness talents being back to back in the upper bracket, has you on 100% almost all of the time.

its bully3 ogryn light whack a mole on steroids.

now, personally i despise that playstyle and go out of my way to integrate a mix of heavy light special attacks with my krourk IV on a full health oggy build that at least somewhat needs management of whats in front of you in terms of keeping your tougness up and health in check.

arbites? mouth foaming wildly i throw myself into the moshpit and come out “frisch gebügelt”

only thing i concede is, but thats again depening on the playstyle and skill level of its user, the charge would net you the least, nunzio gets about the same result but locally restrictedy whereas castigator is full on t-1000 mode against learning disabled toddlers.

fun in terms of “lass mal die sau raus” but hardly what keeps me playing the class as much as my oggy.

who would have thought, in comparison to arbi, ogryn has layers :rofl:

8 Likes

It really is unfortunate, because I think the class really does have some interesting tools and useful utility options, but yeah, that base level of power is so high that there’s nothing really pushing you to make use of those tools. I feel like I have to play incredibly lethargically, or I just end up clearing the map on my own. There builds that my peers have soft banned me from playing because if I do they don’t get the chance to do anything. I want to use the utility, but I don’t want to have to play worse or slower to justify doing so.

Right now, all the generalized power is to easy to get a hold of, and a lot of the utility feels harder than necessary to get value out of. So instead of having any distinct skills I bring to the team I just feel like the incredible walking, talking shotgun man. It has the gameplay texture of a unseasoned paste, but I can see the seasoning right there.

One peer proposed that the class coming out so OP is partially a marketing thing. In fairness to Fatshark, it definitely does get people talking about the game and spending money, and that is probably a good way to fill the coffers enough to justify continued work on the more iterative aspects of the game. That reads as overly pessimistic to me though, even if there’s a level of truth to it. I don’t believe it’s cheap or easy to make a game, so whatever truth might be there, if it produces a better game in the end, I don’t care. But balance is inherently Iterative, and this is the first iteration. It’s natural for there to be room for improvement. I just want to be able to be clear about my thoughts as a player trying to communicate to the developers what and where I think that improvement is/can be had.
If the devs never hear concise logic for the complaints, then the only thing they’re going to get are the people playing a difficulty or two higher than they should who love the class because now they aren’t getting punished for the mistakes that they should be. And the thought of that becoming the new normal level of balance is scary. Not because I want to remove options for those kinds of players but because I don’t want their power fantasy to come at the cost of my entertainment, and the power fantasy is boring if you are a skilled enough player that you don’t need to lean on the crutch.

5 Likes

and ultimately doomed to fail.

back in the day when i was starting in beta and for months later i stuck to malice lest i be a burden to the team.

in about every game i play i strife for my utmost possible yet got no illusion about my limits at a given time.

this is missing in 90% of todays playerbase with every mouth rephrasing the same nonsense of “buff players so i can get into auric maelstrom/havoc”

that would be like saying “give me better gloves and let me step into the ring with klitschko or tyson in his prime”

idiotic,delusional and so far from reality its not even funny anymore.

what is it with people that “content” isnt measured in maps and enemies but being there in the highest difficulties despite lacking every skill to be a valuable addition to the team?

and new classes cash into these power fantasies, buffing and artificially boosting past physical limits aka. giving me machine gun when facing tyson :man_shrugging:

where´s the fugging pride of real accomplishment in these people, where´s the shame of getting carried over and over.

they got to realize at some point they are dead weight but dont care as long as they have “fun clearing the content” ?!?

really its beyond me :man_shrugging:

now as for future new classes and updates:
i fear we got an A.S.S scenario all over with enflated egos that are not backed up by visible performance, for the sake of boosting player numbers (which is fine for generating revenue and necessary to keep things running) but ultimately watering down the games overall experience and resulting in a drop off of those that kept the lights on for years at this point and would continue to do so long after “tourists” left for the next hot :poop:

now i got no information or knowledge about how to maintain a game in terms of funds, but from a players perspective i´d rather pay a reasonable amount to keep the game i enjoy the most since the age of quake than seeing it go down the drain in order to satisfy mainstream idiocricy

2 Likes

Playing Arbitrator for a week has made me worse at the game

6 Likes

like i said for me at one time competing in battlefield 5 “conan exiles dumbs down my mouse”

having so much less things demanded from you makes you lazy, complacent and to some degree degrading your skills, yes.

edit: the only thing i could try to carry over is the speed of which i engage larger groups and try to force this successfully into my other class.
but thats about it with the “net worth” of arbites.

everything else is pretty chill.

i mean i cleared a havoc 40 yesterday, after coming from the most uncomfortable chair you can imagine, sitting there for 8! hours getting multiple chemo IV´s

if thats not an indicator for arbitrator being op i dont know what drug binch you´d need to top that :joy:

3 Likes

Eh, I’d say they’re both just as bad in this regard tbh.

The first thing come to my mind from seeing your image is Ogryn light spamming while facetanking everything.

well its my main character for 1500 hours, so i´d say i got a good view on oggy as a whole :joy:
what i stated above as light spam bully 3 is the current narrative of oggy being blatantly op, which he “can” be sure, but i try to play him visually more appealing when recording content :+1:
that means no meta toughness build, krourk IV and doing as many variated combos as possible

To stand up for Ogryn a little, I think there’s a big difference between a meta build being particularly egregious and the class being so powerful that you don’t even need a build to be egregious. The Ogryn has a couple of notable meta builds that are really easy to exploit, but I think this is more of a symptom of their Class Tree currently heavily incentivizing a few options more than any of the others. It’s the same problem that Vet and Zealot suffer from, it’s just that none of the Ogryn’s weaker options are actually weak, whcih can’t be said for the other classes. They’re a lot closer to balanced than Arbites though. It’s hard to produce a definitive ideal balance point though, as I think every class in the game is either too strong or too weak. The classes that get close to what I suspect would be the idea levels are caveated with “Only some builds”. As the viability of build variety goes up, I suspect complaints about a strict meta will drop. After all, if you can use the full kit then it matters less about what you bring and more about how you play it. The reason I’ve even written all this Darktide content as of recent is because I feel like the game is close. And I would like to see those changes pushed while the games sandbox is relatively stable. If we get a big sandbox change, it’ll be back to the drawing board.

3 Likes

This is a Fatshark-created issue.

Fatshark should never have included rewards for finishing Havoc 40, and the A.S.S. title should also not exist because it leads to players disrupting games by quitting as soon as they hit the ground.

Me, I’ve just begun to enjoy playing Havoc 35-40 (I wasn’t a fan when I did all the penances in 1.0), and I’d want to point out that the most common causes for my failed runs (all done with randoms) are not down to people’s skill level, builds or classes, but rather that the group simply does not gel with one another.

The next question is, when are you Havoc 40 ready?

I feel that you get good at Havoc 40’s by playing Havoc 40.

There are no other modes in Darktide that will help you progress to Havoc 40 other than playing Havoc, and Havoc 40 is a completely different game than Darktide Auric-Auric Maelstrom so how will you get better at it if you do not throw yourself into the mode?

I can’t blame the players for this.

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i’d say when you permanently can compensate teams shortcomings/carry auric maelstrom on a regular basis.

havoc 35+ with randoms needs to “click” thats true, yet usually it doesnt from the getgo.

in my cases it needed the say first 5 minutes for peeps to sniff each others tail and start to act together.

these first meters are the crux it seems.

carry-weight usually was psyker and somewhat wololo-zealot, being there cause of their mandatory talents and not of their skill.

thing with maelstrom as a “rosskur” is learning to deal with the game (except dog/trapper) on your own and succeed not because of your team but despite of it, kinda like:

so you know what to do when

copyImage

these are some lessons from maelstrom that can carry over.

arbites or not, last havoc 40 i saved myself by remembering the “divide and conquer” lesson from solo clutching maelstrom training montage :smile:

would i have either:
tried to duke it out or
hoped for my team to bail me out

run would have been a bust, i’m sure.

what worked is taking the brunt of the horde + one boss and kiting/scraping off its layers and taking pressure on the scattered mates, giving them air to breathe and refocus themselves.

basically what you mentioned, as a single they knew their stuff, yet being random in nature and only ingame methods for communication, one needs to function autonomously.

as for the havoc modifiers, honestly i dont even care for the rainbow show or act differently.
so far every encounter is doable, takes a bit longer when recharging health of course, but in my opinion giving them more “respect” that they’re due might shift the encounter to a needlessly defensive position.

this.
being proud of yourself and your abilities for getting there and doing your part as equal worth contributor is reward enough :flexed_biceps:

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High Havoc is highly RNG, so I wouldn’t be too concerned about failing Havoc 35+ multiple times in a row because, in the end, it’s up to whether the RNG favors you for the day or if you start the run with the Twins, 3 monstrosities, and 2 Hexbounds at the same time as you have to deal with a regenerating Bulwark, Gunner’s and Reaper squad (can be beaten obviously).

That is also why I am strongly opposed to balancing or even using high Havoc as a measuring bar because the difficulty is simply too unpredictable.


I appreciate your point about being able to carry Maelstrom’s meaning you are ready for high Havoc’s, but I also believe that carrying Maelstrom also depends somewhat on your build and RNG.

Since I’ve never played meta-builds, I can clutch Malestrom’s quite often with my support Zealot and occasionally even with my support Arbites (Nuncio, Zarona, Arb Maul). However, clutching and reviving the team (especially if they spawn far away) absolutely depends on what I’m up against (Maelstrom modifiers) and how locked in I am.


Sometimes I screw up too!


My experience with failed Havoc’s is that it’s all about the usual suspects: crybabies that get mad after one failed run (they are probably already angry at the start of the mission), blame everyone else, and then rage quit (typical World of Warcraft players), but the actual good players usually say "gg nt, let’s go again"and continue trying to beat the 40 with the same squad without baby raging.

Admittedly, I am a little biased because I did all of the Havoc penances in 1.0, so it makes no difference if I lose ten-fifteen Havoc 40’s in a row because I only play for fun now days.


If Fatshark had not put any rewards, weekly caches, a displayable rank, or titles in Havoc and instead treated it as a fun completely unhinged game mode where success was no guarantee and you just tried to go as far as you could go (horde mode), we wouldn’t have people who are ill-equipped for the difficulty sign up.

When you connect a prize to something, people want that because they want to look cool, “stylin’ and and profilin’” with their unique titles, mounts, and cosmetics.


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sorry all i can think when someone posts rick flair meme is the flight from hell sausage helicopter :rofl:

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Truthfully, I’ve personally never gone passed Havoc 30. But I’m also a Solo Que player and Havoc just isn’t my first choice of game mode to play when I want to have fun. Despite having a lot of mechanical knowledge on the game, I don’t assume that I’m the most skilled player you could have; I just have a lot of game knowledge I can lean on. It’s a lot easier to deal with a Trapper if you know where she’s going to approach from.

But around Havoc 20 is when I find my personal ability to clutch consistently really starts to dry up, and I really want the support of the team to push forward. But I’ve unironically joined games and basically been told that unless I alone clutch up, we won’t win. And that’s exhausting as a player, because it means that for me, the gamemode is no longer about team play and coordination, but instead it’s guessing game where I might only get one chance before someone quits to figure out where is my team lacking and try to cover for that, because telling a team of randoms that you don’t think they have enough DPS never seems to actually get through to them until the team is retreating from a pack of crushers.

To your point of there really being nothing that prepares you for a Havoc 40 other than a Havoc 40, I think this speaks to a larger onboarding process. I don’t actually think Havoc is especially hard, despite only reaching the 30s of the game mode; instead, I believe that Havoc is a gamemode that rewards good team play, map knowledge, and build craft. It’s not that a team has to play perfectly together from jump street to win. But a team should be communicating w/ each other. And there’s not really any material in game that prepares players to think in terms of when you should push forward and when you should stall, where you should set up defensive chokes, or what specifically needs to be communicated in the midst of a horde. And the teams most in need of that coordination are the ones least open to receiving it.
Having to choose between being treated like a try hard sweat, or silently taking on the the weight of every mistake players treating the gamemode casually make in a match isn’t a compelling incentive to launch the game for a solo player, so I end up just favoring the highest tier of non-havoc play, because at least there when I watch another player walk off a cliff, I know I will omly have to deal w/ 5 crushers instead of 10.

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I don’t inherently believe that Havoc Rewards are a problem; while yes, the accomplishment I feel from getting to that level is always going to be great, I like having my little badge or banner that reminds me of having accomplished that challenge.

I think the bigger issue w/ rewards is how they are obtained. Havoc, as a gamemode, rewards communication and teamwork. But the rewards for Havoc only reward getting to higher tier Havoc, and winning games. It shouldn’t be a surprise that you get a lot of players entirely focused on whether or not they go down. There’s nothing reinforcing the idea the fact that Havoc is a teamwork focused game mode, so very few people approach it from the perspective of the teams success over their personal success. Yes, at a certain point, they’re one and the same, but that’s only at the very end. If the value you add to your team throughout the match isn’t proportionate to the level of challenge the mode is asking each player to overcome, then it’s a lot hard to reach teamwide sucess.

Some of this could be helped by just changing when and how you get certain rewards. Maybe not tying a complete armor set to reaching high level Havoc would be nice for one. But even expanding from that, if you want to give various pieces of armor out for completing various Havoc challenges, make those challenges ones that will reinforce teamplay. I recognize that this easier said than done. If you have a reward tied to rezing people, then you’ll just get players who rush out of position as soon as someone goes down in order to farm progression on a penance. But knowing that someone is going to rush forward to go for a save is honestly easier to plan and coordinate around than a player who is silent the entire match and who will quit mid match if they go down.

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This is the big one for me. While I don’t feel like every reward in the game mode is inherently bad, they definitely don’t incentivize having the kind of mindset you need for the gamemode. Combined with decently harsh punishments for failing to win (assuming you are playing for rewards), means you get a really weird mix of players.

Some are incredibly casual, to the point of not actually playing with their team. Yeah, a run spawning 3 Fleshbags and and two firebombers on a player in a corner is bad RNG, but other times, if a player is consistently going down to the same thing, I want them to learn from that. Not just yell out “Run it Back”. On the flip side the people who are only in it for the reward also don’t play with the team. Every now and then, I get a team communicating and working together, and those games feel great. But I largely feel stuck in the middle, because what attracts me to Havoc is the prospect of playing an even high difficulty challenge because Aurics are honestly too easy.

Having that experience of working through my shortcomings as a player, growing in skill so that I can handle even more dangerous encounters is incredibly fun. But as a random solo, the asking price isn’t fun. It’s one thing to clutch up after a bad encoutner where the team gets blindsided. It’s another thing for every encounter to be one that blindsides the team, even when you warn them, because the team isn’t playing together. I used to use mods to play True Solo Auric, purely to test how far I could get on my own skill. But the difference between that and Havoc is that I wanted to play those Aurics solo. Most of the time in Havoc, I don’t feel like I get a choice.

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my “problem” with havoc is a different one.
small as my channel may be, i pride myself recording the best content i can muster.

25 years ago i recorded every quake match i fought and every now and then revell in the past.

nowadays with youtube and stuff its much easier creating these “memories” and making a time capsule of my skills.

that being said, havoc is so unbelievably clunky and while i got what it takes clearing havoc 40 i dont take kindly having to “apply” via party finder and waste time i could spend playing/recording.

so when trying to get my 4-5 videos a day i need to make choice between the surefire auric maelstrom carry or spending 5x the amount of waiting time for a proper havoc 40.

both for what ever reasons generate the same amount of views, heck playing so many auric maelstroms get me a lot more subs in comparison, for a lot “less effort”

then there’s havoc performance, which again i’m proud of being able to still pull off being 20 years past my prime, but its barred behind artificial :poop: that takes away from my time/nerves/energy.

sometimes watching the party finder that empty i just tell myself “f-that” aint worth the wait and rather get 3 maelstroms wrapped up 15-20 mins. each tops. :man_shrugging:

fatshark should just do away with that lousy numbers game, lot of “havoc 40” medal wearers arent there because of their “skills” anyways but cause the group “needed” a book or bubble.

tangible content should be able to be recorded without limit in a 24 hour timespan, not play the job application or waiting game.

open a session, select a number 1-40 and let people join.
you f-up? big deal, hammer that button again within the next 5 minutes :man_shrugging:

you made it?you recorded it?you can brag about it.
otherwise its a hollow number next to your nametag.

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Agreed, poor internal tree balance is a different issue from the balance between classes and confusing the two can lead to implementing the wrong solutions.

Poor balance between classes is usually a matter of vague comparison and then broad nerfs to the offending class to bring it back into line, where imbalanced trees lead to limited build variety with large parts of the tree going untouched by most players and the class becomes represented by specific builds.

Imo the best solution for internal balance is to assess the current state of things and identify weak choices that need to be more compelling and inspect the current meta choices and consider if they do too much (I assume FS have back end statistics that can identify the most and least popular nodes across peoples most played saved builds)

The problem is we don’t get a lot of targeted buffs to address internal balance outside of major tree overhauls, and the solution of nerfing a class as a whole due to the performance of its strongest representative builds without revisiting the internal class balance tends to make people feel like there’s even less room to stray from the meta.

Its a shame because it leads to this issue where people who play a class will be more sensitive to the internal balance of their tree, but when suggesting improvements to ‘fix’ things clash with people who see the same class performing strongly overall when playing with people using the best builds it has to offer and see no reason to make it stronger. Both talking about balance, just not talking about the same thing.

I definitely agree though that Arbites in its current form feels like it has a strong internal balance, with just excessive performance relative to other classes, and should be fine with just a general adjustment to the potency of its stats across the board.