A "Comprehensive" Understanding Why Darktide's State of Balance Won't Get Better

Preface:
I want to make it abundantly clear that this isn’t some kind of rage bait post, but a serious breakdown of the factors surrounding Darktide’s Balance, the the Major Balancing Mindsets that the community has, what influences those preferences, and why Fatshark can’t please both groups without major changes to how they present Darktide to the community. Several content creators have made videos on this topic, and considering I’ve just down Class Breakdowns for every class in the gamer, I thought I’d add my own two cents. Especially considering that while these content creators have correctly identified the stakes that each party holds in the balance of the game, I do not think anyone has adequately described why both sides are so entrenched in their own perspectives. This post is not blaming one side or the other, but exploring the perspective each comes to the game with. And I’d like to add that there is a way for Darktide’s State of Balance to get better, but it requires Fatshark to do something that neither group is currently invested in. As per usual, for those short on time or patience, I’ll sum up my thoughts in a TL;DR.

Defining the Parties:
So i’ve seen a lot of ways that different creators trying to address this problem have divided up the community based on general interest, but in understanding the different parties that have stakes and influence on the balancing of the game, I find that simpler/broader is better. Party number one, whether anyone likes it or not, is Fatshark. While I have no doubt that Fatshark wants to make a great game, they need to make a profitable one. Their stakes in the balance is whatever will pay the highest dividends. But then the two player focused parties with stakes are Casual Players & Competitive Players. Both Player Parties want the game to be balanced for “fun” but what each party defines as fun is where the problem lies.

Now, I can’t talk about this difference in definitions of fun without this getting somewhat personal. I am the highest skilled player out of any of my peers who I actively play with. Among my friends, I have twice the hours (1,528) in this game as the next highest person. And I bring this up not as a brag, but to indicate that I play this game for very different reasons and in a very different capacity to the rest of my friends. This means that while yes, I have the personal perspective of a competitive player who wants the game to be balanced based on challenge, everyone who I enjoy playing this game with is far closer to a more Casual Mindset. For my part in this, I can’t afford to be entrenched, because I want to play this game with my friends.

If you are a more Casual Player, you probably inherently disagree with anything that might come off as/be perceived as a Nerf. You are playing this game for fun, and winning is fun. In fact, you might wonder how anyone could play a PvE Horde Shooter competitively aside from maybe speed running, and you didn’t buy this game to get roped into someone’s random speed run or masochistic fight pit. And that is a fair perspective to have. This isn’t some kind of strawman argument. Darktide, as a game, does not present itself as some kind of hardcore experience. You get a handful of cool, strong classes, some missions to play through, and a couple of silly, wacky game modes.

If you are a more Competitive Player, you probably inherently disagree with ideas about raising the power levels higher than they already are. Arbites in particular is likely a real sticking point. You are playing this game to overcome a challenge. In order for there to be a challenge to overcome, there has to be weaknesses in the classes and their kits, that way there is way to express you skills, short and longterm planning, and buildcraft. Darktide is a PvE Team Based Horde Shooter, so what each member of the team brings to any given encounter is important to you. And that is also a fair perspective to have.

Investigating the Stakes:
The thing is, if you’re a competitive player, the casual players have you outnumbered. I want to put forward some very rough guesstimation math. If you look at the achievement “Like a four- leaf Clover”, it indicates that 9% of the steam community of players has unlocked it. Based upon the steam charts the all time peak of Darktide was 108,395 players. Assuming that close to the same amount of players at the peak of the game still own it, that means if you have the achievement of “Four Leaf Clover”, you are one of somewhere in the ballpark of only 9,755 players people with that achievement. While this is close to half of the current average daily players (about 17,761), the majority of casual players aren’t necessarily daily players. Hell; I’m not a daily player. And even considering that half my hours are probably in one class, where as the other half is split between three, it does not take 250 Hours to reach level 30 in one class. Which means the vast majority of players either have significantly less hours in total or all of their hours are in three or less classes, if not both.

Darktide’s biggest problem is that the Casual Player Base is right. But the Competitive Players aren’t wrong. Darktide, outside of the initial tutorialization, has no real in-game systems, gamemodes, or challenges focused on educating or nurturing the skills needed to perform at higher levels of play in a way that is fun or engaging. And without the insight that resources like that could provide, balancing suggestions based on Upper Tier play only reads as needlessly oppressive for the vast majority of players. In posting on the forums, I’ve been exposed to a lot of other people’s own personal insights, and one in particular that I keep coming back to is that “Nothing Prepares you for a Havoc 40 game other than playing a Havoc 40 game”. And I think this sentiment can be applied to every challenge in this game.

I have recently been playing the game w/ my partner and their peer group, and when I first started playing with this group, before the Arbites dropped, they generally expressed disinterest and even condemnation of the elements of Darktide that I found most enjoyable. And then, partially due to boredom, and generally due to my own chaotic inclinations, I qued us into a Damnation. And the party struggled. Even I did, as I was playing a test build on my weakest class. But we won, specifically due to me shot calling and giving very clear directives about when and where we should move. After this game I fully expected to be banned from choosing missions, but something unexpected happened. My partner and peers enjoyed that game. In fact, they enjoyed it more than they had the previous game. Yes, they struggled, but they also saw me struggle, instead of just watching me blow through every challenge on my own. And the way I went about solving the challenges we were faced with wasn’t just “getting good”, but instead illustrated to the other players the depth of game knowledge I had accumulated in my time playing. Now, my partner and my peers come to me constantly for information regarding classes, enemies, buildcraft, missions, weapons, and more. They see me as a wellspring of information on how to get better at the game.

Again, the point of bringing up this personal excerpt isn’t as a brag, but to illustrate that my peers saw in-me, not anything in in-game, a repertoire of valuable information to get better at the game. And this is why Casual Players are right, but Competitive Players aren’t wrong. Comparing Casual Players and Competitive Players based upon this idea that casual players want fun and competitive players want challenge is inherently misleading, and implies that casual players are opposed to things being hard. The truth of the matter is that everyone has fun overcoming challenges. My want to overcome a challenge inherently means that I want to win too. I just want to win in a way that makes me feel like I earned it. A breakdown that I find far more honest and accurate is that Casual Players want easy to understand and access tools and Competitive Players want challenging test and difficulties to overcome. Without actual in-game learning resources that don’t turn playing the game into doing a chore players don’t currently have the tools to learn and improve at the game, meaning a Class’s base power has to make up for the gap in knowledge. For Casual Players, the idea of making options weaker (especially when there’s nothing in game to help the player improve) probably seems like an inherently bad game design choice. But it’s not. As a Competitive Player, it’s easy for me to read a more Casual Player’s frustration with the importance of Buildcraft and Game Knowledge as disdain for challenge. But it’s not.

I personally understand Havoc to be the equivalent of end game content, that requires good teamwork, skilled play, considered buildcraft, and defined map knowledge. But Havoc does not really present itself like end game content. The rewards associated with the gamemode don’t put any focus on those skill sets; they put a reward on winning. And those rewards are things like cosmetics and titles. Things that player want to earn. Arbites probably feels like a godsend for Casual Havoc players. Without any in game tools to access information or education on higher tier skills in-game, the tool that lets them engage with the gamemode is the class. But now, the challenge a Competitive Minded players searchs for in what should be the highest mode of play is non-existent.

As stated earlier, I recognize that I don’t play this game in a way that is relevant to most of my peers. Of my 1,500 odd hours, a not insubstantial number of those hours have been spent in the psykhanium, testing things with the help of mods. Being able to spawn in specific enemies or groups of enemies to fight is one of the best ways to train yourself to better handle diffrent encounters or otherwise learn more about your build. But if you’re a console player, modding isn’t really an option. And even if you are a PC player, you might just not want to have to download mods. Which means one of the best resources for improving your play in Darktide requires out of game material (modding), is entirely self guided, and gives no rewards. It is not a practical expectation for a player base to learn the skills required for higher play in this kind of environment. Likewise, community tutorialization is equally faulty. No video or essay in the world is going to teach you how to better operate your weapons, and buildcraft videos often spend more time highlighting the strengths of a build over the complexities and consideration of it. Breaking down little intricacies does not make for the most engaging content (I would know), and what most watchers want to know is if a build is strong, not why. So how do you fix this disparity in the knowledge base of the players?

Proposing Solutions:
Darktide is a very diffrent game than what it was on release. Systems like crafting used to be RNG; you had so much less freedom to hone your build. But now, if the game can’t find a way to balance the options classes have, why have options at all? Class Trees and Crafting are both great ways to give the player base a lot of control, but only if the options are equally valid. For those options to be equally valid, especially in a game as complex as Darktide, you have to be able to educated the player base on how that options is intended to be use; how the player can get value out of it. Raising the access to and general level of knowledge of the Player Base is far more likely to reduce the gap in perspectives on balancing, leading to a much higher likelihood that Fatshark can balance the game in a way that everyone can appreciate. Or in the very least, the majority of people excluding the most stubborn outliers.

So if you want to fix the difference in knowledge levels of the player base, the obvious solution is more rigorous tutorialization, right? There, we fixed it. Except…No one likes tutorials. The initial tutorial in the Psykhanium is long and boring , and it only teaches you the very basics; far from Comprehensive. So I don’t think I’m going to excite anyone, Casual or Competitive Player, if I suggest “More Tutorials”. That’s just not a good solution. Besides, tutorialization is costly to make, as it only can get value out of people accessing it, it doesn’t directly serve in game progress or rewards, which means players won’t want to do it, which means that a percentage of players never interact with it, so that percentage of players don’t have a good understanding of the subject, thus requiring more/better tutorialization to resolve. It’s a vicious and terrible cycle. But it doesn’t have to be.

We can look a game like Armored Core 6 for ideas on how to implement advance Tutorials. In AC6, there is a selection of short tutorials (each being less than 5 mins to complete) on a handful of the higher concepts. Completing these tutorials unlock mech parts and weapons for you, or otherwise give you resources of some kind. The short time requirement and the interconnected reward for demonstrating mastery of the concept means that this tutorialization is very effective. But if you want a 40K game example, look no further than Space Marine 2. SM2 has a very similar system, where the key abilities of each class gets highlighted in its own micro-tutorial. SM2 goes a step beyond even AC6 because it grades you on your execution of the challenge, and you are awarded better resources based upon how well you do. Short time investments with valuable rewards is an easy way to make impactful tutorials on advanced subjects of your game.

These kinds of mini challenges could be a part of psykhanium. Let players choose a difficulty level for a bespoke little challenge. Something like asking players to get a certain number of perfect blocks against a number of Ragers within a time limit encourages players to learn about those mechanics. And additional objectives, like staggering enemies, or modifiers can net you more rewards, like an Auric Operative Stipend. Let players earn bonus Ordo Dockets, Plasteel, Diamantine, Ordo Ingots, and maybe even some small amount of Aquilas depending on what difficulty they complete the challenge at. Even as one time (per difficulty) reward challenges, the fact that you can play them again means that they’re a resource for training the player on how to deal with certain enemies and/or use certain weapons at increasing difficulty levels.

The same goes for meta-progression rewards. The Weekly Contracts currently ask player to do such vague things. Kill Scabs. Kill Dregs. They could ask for specific task instead of generalist ones. Things like Shove a Number of Hounds and Poxbursters. Dodge Crusher and Mauler Overheads. Rescue or Resuscitate Ally. Resupply or Buff Allies a certain number of times with Ammo Boxes or Stims. Heal a certain amount of ally Health with Med-Kits or Stims. Play (Not Win) a number of games on a certain difficulty. Instead of contracts just asking you to play the game, they could ask you to play the game well. Instead of choosing between punishing lower skilled players or higher skilled player, the game could be balanced behind giving every player the resources and opportunity to achieve high tier play.

I recognize that tutorialization can be expensive to create and hard to get a player base to engage with, but these options were suggested specifically because of how easy they are to implement. Adding things that Weekly Contracts can track isn’t resource intensive, and depending on what the contract is tracking, it can help guide players to better gameplay habits. Adding Challenges is harder, but all it ultimately consist of is spawning the player in the psykhanium with an enemy, potentially tweaking the AI to help demonstrate a subject, and then asking the player to do something a handful of times. Attaching decent pay-out rewards to these challenges helps engage the player base, and their replayability means they can keep being used to hone the players skills.

The TL;DR of How to Improve Community Sentiment of Balance:

  • Add Psykhanium Mini-Challenges that can be played at different difficulties with scaling one time resource cash out rewards to help incentivize players to take up the challenge.

  • These challenges serve the dual purpose of teaching players advance mechanics like perfect blocking or weapon mechanics and the difference in enemy breakpoints, damage, and behavior at higher difficulty.

  • Change or Add Weekly Contracts to better emphasize positive team behavior like staying in coherency, sharing resources, dealing with certain threats a certain way, and/or Rescuing or Resuscitating Allies.

[If the changes listed in this short summarization don’t convince you that these are compelling and worthwhile changes to make to the class, please read the full post and let me try to.]

Closing Thoughts:
I really do think it’s fair to point out that Darktide has changes a lot in its two year lifespan. When the game first came out, I treated it very casually, but after the Talent Trees came out, I felt like there was really something to bite into. I trained myself to use knives, not just to complete the penance, but because I wanted to know how to get value out of them. I first modded the game because I wanted to know how to solo every boss while taking the least amount of damage possible. The challenge of overcoming those objectives is what has kept me coming back to the game when every other game seems to have lost its luster. But I can’t blame other people for wanting an easier experience when the game doesn’t provide the tools to mastery it in-game. Instead of one group or the other having to suck it up, I feel like there’s a far more impactful solution in reaching a compromise, where the tools and incentives to get better at the game are actually provided by the game, and the challenge is preserved.

I recognize that in part for some of these options to work, you would have to restructure certain aspects of the game, but those aspects need to be restructured if only because the other systems that they’re connected to already have. It’s not changing how the game works for the sake of change but in recognition of the changes that have already been made. That’s why I’m such a proponent about addressing specifically Class Identity first and foremost. Balancing is largely math, but it’s math that’s based on mechanics, which in of themselves are abstractions of ideas. If the Abstraction isn’t defined, the math can’t be either. Knowing that, say, a Psyker’s Role in the team is horde clear, and that their position is Long Range means you can have an easier time not only balancing the class (as you have a clear idea what the class is supposed to do and where its strengths and weaknesses lie) but in turn you also have an easier time balancing the weapon sandbox, and the enemy sandbox, and even making tutorialization material. It becomes possible to teach people the importance of build craft and how each branch of the tree provides value to the class because those micro-tutorial challenges can use pre-defined builds that only use the nodes associated with a certain playstyle within a class. That’s why I’ve been so fixated on outlining comprehensive changes to better define, organize, and balance they Playstyle Options of the Veteran, Zealot, Ogryn, Psyker, and Arbites.

Darktide is a far more complex game than it was on release. There are more abilities due to the class tree. More weapons and blessings from updates. Actual weapon crafting instead of RNG. And now, a whole new class, which should theoretically add even more. But Darktide isn’t currently balanced or tutorialized in a way that lets the player naturally grow in competency, or allow every class get its own distinct value, or get what value they do bring to a team’s composition at the same rate. And those options are equally pointless if players don’t know how to make use of them. The answer isn’t buffing everything until it all plays the same, but we also can’t demand a more challenging experience when they game doesn’t even properly team the skills needed to engage with the challenge that’s already there.

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It’s a little more complicated than that. Case in point : yours truly.
I’ve got 900 hours in DT, but I don’t really engage with the sweatlord content (Auric Hi-ints, Havoc, etc.) because at the end of the day I’m not interested in struggling and watching my QP teammates struggle because they are not fortunate enough to be a VT2 veteran and a DT beta-tester old-timer. Do I really qualify as a ‘casual’ ?

However, I’m not opposed to reasonable nerfs for the outliers (DS4, Arbites death stick…). But what I’m really waiting for are buffs to neglected weapons, because using the same old tools gets real boring after a while, even if they make Damnation and Auric runs easy-as-pie.

There’s a third option you haven’t mentioned about the state of balance: adjusting enemies and enemy spawns. Ever since 2024 groups of elites and gunners have been getting bigger and bigger because they’re the only threat the game designers think they can throw at us. And in response, player power creep has been evident. Carapace used to be tanky but that’s certainly not the case anymore. You used to have to make difficult gear and talent choices between horde-clear and armor piercing ; now the OP jack-of-all-trades are kings.

Someone at FS needs to reign this in at some point ! Otherwise anything new and/or recently reworked will systematically be the META, and old stuff gathers dust in the corner (chain swords, autoguns, infantry lasguns, vet and zealot tree, and others…). And FS is giving themselves endless work balancing and reworking sh*t because of power creep.

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I think the penance system was intended to fill the exact role you are suggesting. Rather than weekly quests they’re one off quests, but they are tasks that encourage interacting with various game mechanics, and give small rewards for doing so.

So, I guess I’d be interested to hear why you think the penance system is failing to deliver the outcome your suggestion is aiming at?

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I agree with you; the Penance system theoretically fulfills the role I’m suggesting, but the problem is that it’s hard to make long term goals that are actually reflective of good play (especially in a balance sandbox that keeps undergoing massive changes). If I ask a player to revive allies 300 times with no specification for what difficulty they have to do this at or no time limit for how long they have to do it, what did that teach them about playing the game? If I play 3 hours a day and pick up one person each game then I will get that penance in about 2 months. But that Penance didn’t teach me not to pick up allies standing in fire (something that will prob just make them go down again), or not to run off on my own to pick up an ally who’s gone down far from the team. I don’t think Penances failure to better direct players on how to engage with the game is somehow negligence of Fatsharks part, but long terms goals don’t make for good tutorialization. It’s not a job that they can actually adequately serve. And it’s not really one that it’s trying to serve. Penances are more like achievements that you get for doing a lot of something or doing something in an extreme way, and they’re fine doing that. But without the backbone of easier to access and more comprehensive tutorialization, they actually kind of end up being a disservice to player’s understanding of the game. Just look at how Auric Storm Survivor encouraged people to abandon games if they went down. Or how Long Bomb or Buying Time encourage players to agro groups of enemies (including gunners) from far away. Or any of the penances that Fatshark has locked behind private games because they’re even more disruptive than that.

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Fair. There are a lot of people who play this game for a lot of reasons, and ultimately anything that tries to categorize 17,000 players without making 17,000 categories is going to find itself making broad generalizations. But so long as those generalizations are understood to be such, and not specific to every player, there shouldn’t be a problem with using it as a tool to better understand equally broad subject matters.

While Agree that Enemy and Weapon Sandbox Balance is a major issue, I don’t think it’s the main reason why why opinions on how to balance the game are so split between the community. The community has been arguing about balance before Armor Meta, or Elite Gunner Meta, or Basic Gunner Meta, or Ogryn-less Meta, or Psyker Meta. And I truly believe that the main cause for this is the difference the value high skilled players can get from any one class compared to lower skilled players. I don’t say this from an elitist point of view; my skill level is probably only a little above average. I just have a lot of game knowledge to compensate for moderate skills. But if a High Skilled player can solo a mission with a class, and a lower skilled player can’t even survive the first enemy encounter with the same class, the maybe the problem isn’t the class but the amount of knowledge the player base has on how to use the class.

Now, to be clear, the problem is the classes. But that’s just one set of problems. And the focus of this post wasn’t on how to balance the game as a whole, but instead why the community was seemed so split on the best way to balance the game. Why to some, Arbites felt like a step in the right direction, and to others, it exemplified their frustrations with the game. There are equally major balancing problems across weapons, blessings, and enemies. But while I’m aware of all of those problems, I think the easiest problem to fix right now is class definition. None of the classes really had the same roles that they do now. And the roles that they have now aren’t based on actual measured mechanical changes but generalized mechanical reworks. Ogryn is only a “Boss Buster” class because they can get +100% damage on every enemy. By better defining the roles and positions of class, you can have an easier time balancing every other aspect of the game. Define the class and not only can you create the strucutre needed for every talent point spent to impactful, but you can also balance the nodes because you know what the class should be strong or weaker at. Balancing the nodes lets you balance the weapons, which in turn lets you balance the blessings. And by having all the player controlled systems lets you balance enemy specials, elites, bosses, and hordes. But if you start outside of classes, than any balancing you do will force the class to retroactively tune its mechanics to fit the games sandbox as opposed to the games sandbox being built off of the mechanics of the class. My opinion is that all balance should stem from Class Definition. Then weapons can be strong, not because their base stats, but because you built your character to utilize the specific weapons with blessing combinations. And having an understanding of the limits of those weapons power means you can also scale enemies health and armor to the maximum power of weapons used by a class building for that weapon instead of scaling enemies to the base power of any individual weapon. But now I’m kind of talking in circles, and I think I’ve already expressed the point I wanted to make.

These examples you give are penances that exist. And I think are very much intended to function as pseudo-tutorials to lead new players towards developing those mechanical skills.

I think any tutorial system is going to suffer from some players cheesing the mechanics to tick the box in the easiest possible way just to unlock the rewards. For many other players though I suspect ASS helps them consciously prioritise not dying, and through that frustrating process probably improve significantly at the game. I agree many of the older penances were gimiky and encouraged bad play, but the new reworked ones really seem like a deliberate effort by the devs to encourage new players to learn and master many core mechanics.

Learning is inherently frustrating. It requires being bad at something, becoming aware of how bad you are at it, and then putting in effort to stop being bad at it. Becoming good at darktide requires a lot of learning, and many players are not going to enjoy the frustrating process of learning it all, even when it is sugar-coated.

The solution for such types of gamers is easy difficulty modes, which exist. Even havoc goes down to low enough ranks that every player should be able to play at a difficulty that matches their skill. If they can win at least once for every five losses their rank will be stable, they will be where they belong. The problem only arises when such players have an expectation of being able to reliably succeed at harder difficulties.

So, imo, the real problem around balance is around helping players to form realistic expectations. It is actually the source of the ‘no nerfs’ mentality. If players have previously been relying on an overturned weapon or class to succeed at a certain difficulty, they will have formed very fixed expectations about being able to succeed at that difficulty, and will become very angry if a nerf means those expectations are no longer realistic. They could of course perfectly replicate their previous game experience by just playing at a lower difficulty, but they won’t, they ‘know’ they’re better than that. I’m not really sure how to fix player expectations, psychology is hard.

If the hardest difficulty (currently h40) can be beaten by a group of random strangers that aren’t communicating or cooperating, then it will never pose a meaningful challenge for a team of great players who are friends that regularly play together and are communicating and cooperating. But if it is hard enough to be a meaningful challenge for such a group, then it will be impossible for everyone else. That impossibility would be fine, except many players would expect to be able to succeed, and then complain that the difficulty needs to be nerfed, or that thier characters need to be buffed. Again, I’m not sure how to fix this expectation problem, psychology is hard.

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I do recognize that there are players who don’t have realistic expectations for rewards and difficulty in the game, but I think it’s reductive to suggest that the problem with community perspective on balance is that any kind of majority of player who wants the game to be easier is just unwilling to engage with difficulty.

And while some of the Reworked Penances are geared towards trying to get players to learn higher level concepts, my point was never that no penances do this, but that a lot don’t. And even for the ones that do, there is a difference between teaching someone to do something well, and telling them to do it well. A Penance gives you an objective to complete, not a lesson to learn. Ultimately though, we could go back and forth picking apart each other’s arguments, but I think a more interesting question is this:

Do you feel like the Tutorials that exist in the game are adequate resources for learning the higher mechanics of the game? Not the penances. The actual tutorial. If you feel that you are a high level player, how did you learn how to play at that high level? Did you learn exclusively from playing the game? Or did you research mechanics or builds online. Did you previously or do you currently use mods to practice aspects of play in the game or otherwise test mechanics or aspects of your build?

This isn’t to suggest that using any out of game resource automatically makes me right, but instead I am trying to illustrate that the more of those resources that you invested in, the more your own experience proves that the in game tools to learn how to play the game weren’t sufficient for you. And if they weren’t sufficient for you and you’re a high tier player, then they’re probably not sufficient for players without the time to invest in research or the ability/technical knowledge to mod the game. I know that for my own part, I used mods specifically because I wanted to be able to practice certain skill sets, and trying to that in a mission was not a conducive leaning environment. Trial by fire without ever getting the chance to practice. But hey, maybe you are a significantly better player than I, and you just “got good” at the game by playing it. And that’s cool if so, but I just don’t believe that to be the average experience.

The suggestion that the game can do a significantly better job at tutorializing its various mechanics or defining isn’t coming at some cost to the Penance System, the Difficulty Options of the game, or even the proposed level of challenge for the balance of Darktide. The suggestion just puts more of those tools in the actual game for those without the time or technical knowledge to seek it outside of the game. There are always going to players who feel overly entitled to rewards or access to challenge. But I’d like to be somewhat optimistic about the community of this game and not assume that all the people looking for buffs are just scared of challenge.

At least their penance design has caught up a bit now, but penances were absolutely horrible in teaching how an class’s kit worked, having tasks that were one, some or all of unintuitive, hilariously RNG/other player dependent or just outright team hostile. Again, it’s noticeably improved, but man those class penances really did suck.

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Oh for sure; when critiquing the state of the game, I never want to imply that Fatshark has been resting on their laurels. There are a lot of aspects of the game that have been greatly improved, but that just makes the area’s that haven’t stand out all the more. Now that the player base has examples of how good things can be, the things that aren’t sting all the sharper.

I’m a 3500+ hours one trick Purgatus Psyker, and very probably know more about the kit and related mechanics than any other player. I’ve read and watched most relevant guides. Some of the written steam guides have good/accurate mechanical information (though often with questionable build advice), but most ‘guide’ videos are full of misinformation and suboptimal advice.

I do use mods to expose numbers to test things before I believe anything I’ve read or heard, or often just wonder how something works and dig/test until I understand, I even occasionally look at the game code.

It would require a several hour video to explain all of it to a new player, and so isn’t the sort of content that could be easily packaged into ingame tutorials without being overwhelming. Besides, most of what I know is only relevant and useful in specific situations, so a big issue is giving that information to a player when it becomes relevant and useful for them to understand it, which is fairly impossible.

Most of my learning has been through fraking around and finding out. When I die I think about what mistake I made, what I could have done to avoid it, either playstyle or loadout, and try that next time. Sometimes I record my gameplay to watch back and review my decisions and awareness, occasionally I upload those runs for others to learn by example. My enjoyment from the game comes from learning and improving, so I don’t really mind mission failure, it’s often the quickest way to learn, if you’re paying attention with the right mindset.

I think one significant advantage I had was learning to play psyker before the tree rework added smite and bubble and made toughness regen far easier. Those additions certainly make the class more approachable for new players, but ultimately they are crutches that let them avoid the pain required to get good with the better options.

Mostly I got good by investing thousands of hours into something I enjoyed, and I’m not sure that can really be avoided without just removing complexity from the game. So I’m not really sure what ingame tutorials could *realisticly be added to more quickly teach players everything I learned from experience and curiosity.

*It wouldn’t hurt to add such things, but I guess I don’t think it would change much. It is theoretically possible they could make an elaborate in-depth training system that would give all of the relevant details at the right time, but I don’t think it would be worth the effort.

I do agree adding the monster spawner and solo play mod as base functionality would be great, but they still require players to spend a fair bit of time fraking around to learn anything useful.

It would be nice if community guide content around the game was better, but confident ignorance is fairly well rewarded by the algorithms so unfortunately that is what it is.

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I loved arbites as a class and nerfing it has caused me to step back from the game again
i can only really vote with my wallet but i dont want to play the game after everything i liked about the class is nerfed into the ground p.s. i made an account just for this message

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Ok but also there are five base difficulty levels and 40 levels of Havoc. I don’t think there’s any risk of casuals not having an appropriate difficulty to run as long as they don’t feel entitled to enter the top difficulties. Unfortunately they often seem to and even suggesting that entitlement is reasonable feels like negotiating with terrorists to me frankly.

A lot of things just need to be nerfed, it’s not that deep.

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Where were the nerfs? I only saw adjustments to the arbitrator penances and fixes to things that weren’t working in the last hotfix. Actually, as of the hotfix, the arbitrator may be even more busted now.

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Arbitrator hasn’t been nerfed at any point since it released. That may or may not change in the future but there are currently no nerfs to the class at present.

yeah this is something that kind of bugs me in that we do have a ton of difficulty options. The problem is Havoc is gated behind frankly ridiculous systems (ladder system, no quickplay, deranking) and conversely lower difficulties like heresy and down often don’t have enough action happening to appeal to those casual players who would rather be in Damnation or Auric. Some improved player agency around difficulty selection and difficulty accessibility would go a long way imo, it’s effectively what twitch mode and modded realm achieved for VT2 and nobody complains because you can just play whatever it is you’re looking to play

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I’m not going to write a super long reply because I’ve already said all of this before, but the main issue with Darktide and balancing is the skill trees and the ramped up enemy spawns to counter act player power gained from the skill trees.

Gone are the days when a group of Scab Stalkers would murder you in a volley while backing up, and we are now stuck with hyperspeed gameplay that consists of spawning specials every two seconds and always filling the screen to the brim with enemy bodies.

It is not immersive and it ultimately harms the narrative and world development when we murder thousands of Moebian 6 troops in a single round.

It makes the Moebians, the cult, and Wolfer appear very incompetent while also making the game feel overly arcade-y.

While trying Vermintide 2 for the first time after 3000 hours of Darktide, I found it to have a much better sense of immersion due to the narrative, map design with really cool set pieces, real campaign bosses and lower enemy spawns, but still being difficult due to the game being mostly melee (and Beastmen).

To compare Vermintide 2 to Darktide, I’m fighting Skavens who have taken over various sectors or missions, whereas in Darktide, I’m facing an endless regiment of Moebian 6 and several Monstrosities, both spawn out of thin air and it breaks immersion and the narrative (which is already pretty thin).

Reduce the number of enemy spawns and nerf the player characters across the board.

Crusher’s should feel like minibosses rather than constant clowncars, with three Crushers and four Bulwarks, and monstrosities should be an extremely rare thing that spawns at certain points (in a narrative) and brought up to be extremely difficult to defeat.


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an unintended bleeding stack as far as i understand has been fixed.
if thats enough to turn away certain players cause they otherwise dont see a chance, i’m honestly glad to never encounter them in > auric maelsteom

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I feel like that got counteracted by the dog bleed talent now giving correct credit on kill and tied to dog damage bonuses (this part may be a bug). Weapon blessings affecting other things outside of the weapon they are equipped on is a pretty recurring bug though.

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My concern with nerfs is that they can and often are overdone. I’ve seen quite a few cases of a weapon being extremely good for a long time, getting hit with the nerf bat, only for the nerfs to go too far and you almost never see the weapon again for like a year lol.

Thunder hammer does come to mind.

As a subset of that, weapons that have been “balanced” in the context of an earlier game state that no longer really exists also haven’t really been looked at again, like heavy swords and flamers.

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Yep.

I don’t understand why FS just doesn’t do quarterly balance passes. They don’t have to be huge. Just tweak the number a little bit until we get closer to a balance.

The biggest mistake they have been making for, well, forever, is that they have a BIG BEAUTIFUL BALANCE patch which will nerf what was good into the dust and randomly make something else completely OP. And then nothing for a year.

They hear DS4 is OP so now they think they have to completely re-invent the weapon. They don’t. Just tweak some of the numbers a bit. It’s that simple. Anyone with git and a code editor can do it.

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