Temp health talent rework

[Arcter]

• remove temp health on kills talents

• remove health on boss kills talents

• add 2 temp health on melee only kills talent

• add 1 temp health on ranged only kills talent

• crits proc 3 temp health for melee and ranged talent stays the same (or maybe gets buffed to 4)

[Haxorzist]

@Haxorzist

I haven’t found the perfect solution for temp hp but here are some of my ideas:

Remove temp hp on kill (my favorite). Temp hp on crit isn’t that strong and reliable so that the replacement and hp on boss kill matter.

There are 3 lvl 20 talents only one is usually chosen suggestion:
1st temp hp melee focus, 2nd temp hp from ranged focus, 3rd temp hp crit focus.

Currently killing a skaven slave gives as much temp hp as killing a chaos warrior.
I suggest to give more temp hp the more dmg was dealt or some kind of tier list mechanic.

I also like the idea to change the lvl 20 talent to something more career specialized. This does not mean that every career would have 3 totally unique ones more like the +1 shield and 20% dodge talent and temp hp on crit will probably stay for all heroes.

*For a tier-list/dmg dealt mechanic I would give melee more than ranged.

[Darth_Angeal]

So first of all… why does everyone have to open a new thread? I´m pretty sure, that you wrote down your idea in this one:

Temporary Health - The Hidden Problem

Before we commence can I mention that a lot of the current threads here are about balance and this is very heartening for me. Usually, it’s glaring bugs, or huge imbalances, or ruthless mercenary AI that has dominated the discussions here and seeing many threads talking about balance rather than bugs is a bit of a confirmation that Fatshark is moving In the right direction > we’re all discussing balance now rather than bugs (on the whole) so it’s a bit of a boost to my flagging morale that FS a…

Everyone here and even FS will lose the overview about all ideas and the most ppl be meant to / will write the same things over and over again in every thread.

2nd:

@Arcter

• add 2 temp health on melee only kills talent

• add 1 temp health on ranged only kills talent

• crits proc 3 temp health for melee and ranged talent stays the same (or maybe gets buffed to 4)

This would be the same as before. Especially “melee something” benefits from the temp - health. Crit wouldn´t make it better, because dd´s with a high critchance (WS, pyro , BH, huntsman) will have a big advantage again the rest of the careers. + 3 of them already have…
And as long as some careers are able to kill about 90% of the enemies from the distance, the 1 health from range kills will last in a grey healthbar and nothing really changed.

This idea wouldn´t change anything as long as the ppl are able to smash LMB in my eyes. Any “nerf” of the temp health would last in “How dare you FS”. It needs a big rework, just number - handling would make it “broken” (like it already is) or just useless. + you can´t balance it overall (tanks, supports, hardcore - dd´s)

[Haxorzist]

@Darth_Angeal

This would be the same as before. Especially “melee something” benefits from the temp - health.

Disagree this would be the simplest fix that moves away the least from the current system with the fairest impact as the main clutch of temp hp comes from ranged weapons.

@Darth_Angeal

Crit wouldn´t make it better, because dd´s with a high critchance (WS, pyro , BH, huntsman) will have a big advantage again the rest of the careers. + 3 of them already have…

If they remove the unjustified hidden +10% crit chance on dual wield and remove crits on beamstaff for 0.2s after every new target that won’t be an issue.

But it is’t the change we wanted but I will take what I can get, Tzeentch you bastard!
I just think this is not a bad idea and clearly an improvement over the current system.

@Darth_Angeal

So first of all… why does everyone have to open a new thread?

Maybe some dev will lower himself down from his shark to give his opinion of it if we flood the forum.

[Darth_Angeal]

@Haxorzist

I just think this is not a bad idea and clearly an improvement over the current system.

I would never call any idea “bad”, as long as it´s not “kys” etc. There are even a lot of good idea´s in the other threads, but everyone of them got pro´s and con´s.

• As i mentioned, the problem is the unbalance between the careers /weapons for me. I prefer an axe, so i´m not able to slay through a horde and get over 9000 temp health. Zealot with flail? Hahahahahahahah

• Temp - health on range is still temp health. Range careers sit in their comfortzone, nobody could reach them and the already lost life will be filled with it. It doesn´t make any different if it´s +1 +2 +3 per kill.

• If you try to adjust it on melee - kills, it´ll be useless or too powerful. Like i said in my axe example above. It doesn´t have a strong waveclear compared with other weapons and you´ll mostly get hit from hyper-?-horde (miss the word).
  So everyone with a good cleave will rush the temp health in any way. (+1 +2 +3…) Meanwhile me (the axe-guy) has a bad waveclear + higher risk to get a hit + no temp health, because of no kills etc.
  As long as it´s powerful in it´s current state, it´s pretty useful on every weapon / career. If you try to nerf that, FS have to fix a lot of stuff or need a permanent weapon-binded perk. (axe + 3, sword +2, duals + 1, etc.)

I understand that a lot of ppl like the temp health and that it´s a game-design. FS probably wouldn´t remove it in any way, but it needs a bigger rework to be balanced.

Temp health on kill / crit prefers some careers / is easy to get.
Temp health per career (backstab, block) would force the players to much in their own playstyle.

[Yzneftamz]

…Okay. I find it hard to articulate my thoughts about this particular suggestion, but I’ll try. I certainly am not convinced that separating ranged and melee temp health generation is a good idea, even if some scaling between the two could be useful.

The interactions between melee and ranged aren’t that simple; you generally don’t use one or the other exclusively or even significantly more. (I know there are some exceptions, but the Slayer is the only one to use only one.) They support each other, in practically all aspects, and that includes temp health generation. If I’m on low health on a melee focused career, I need to start fighting very carefully (and thus not play to my strengths) until I can build a buffer - unless I have a suitable ranged weapon, so I can fire a few shots in the horde before wading in. Similarly, on a ranged career, melee is the time I need that temp health, as that’s when I take damage, and if I’m tied up in melee, I can’t usually easily separate myself to shoot more (or at least enough to build a significant buffer).

Even when some careers are capable of hanging back and shooting from safety, it’s practically always because there’s someone else helping you to do that. Either another ranged rat-butcherer holding off a wave together, or a melee guy or two keeping the enemies that come through at bay and watching your back. At that point, if one of the supports fail in their current job, bad things happen and you’re back to getting your buffer getting eaten up and being tied in melee, not able to generate more.

So separating melee and ranged temp health generation isn’t that big an issue with some careers, when things go well. But as soon as excrement hits the ceiling fan, it starts being an issue for everyone. And while the complaints about difficulty spikes have been silent for a long time now, they are still what causes the wipes. Things go bad very fast, even suddenly, and that’s exactly when separate health generation is an issue, only worsening the situation.

[Arcter]

@Darth_Angeal

This would be the same as before.

My thought process in brief…

2 temp health on melee is fairly easy for any class to use for gaining temp health though the risk of losing it due to being within striking range means defense must frequently be taken into account.

1 temp health on ranged means ranged players need to work around the gains being easier to farm, but also less effective. Rather than defense, a ranged should be worrying about positioning and target triage. A ranged player should feel like there’s some actual disadvantage to enemies closing the distance, maybe making the decision of whether to switch more difficult. Would this mean more ranged players getting downed due to not having their melee out when they should? Probably yes, but I would hope this would force mediocre ranged to either step up their game or adopt a more melee oriented style.

3-4 temp health on crits… 3 doesn’t currently feel effective enough to be useful. There’s not a persuasive reason to take it now, but maybe it would be more viable if temp health was limited to types of kill rather than all kills. 4 might be better for making it viable now, while 3 might be better if temp health on kills were reworked. I think ultimately people will basically never take crit temp health talents as long as our cumulative crit stats (base from class + weapon + talents) are hidden. Given the option of picking a talent based on A) hidden numbers and chance versus B) kills, which will 100% happen, people will almost always pick the sure thing.

Ultimately my goal is to encourage mediocre or bad ranged players (those who just blast through you to kill slaverats) to focus more on melee, while allowing good ranged players (those who actually think about targets and are headshotting specials / bosses) to still do what they do, though in a more limited way.

Arguably one could just propose removing temp from ranged kills entirely, but that feels unfair to people who are genuinely skilled and beneficial to their team on ranged, and doesn’t acknowledge there are a few classes that are specifically designed as ranged classes. Maybe those classes need to be redesigned, but that’s a lot more work than just rebalancing the properties of melee versus ranged play.

@Darth_Angeal

why does everyone have to open a new thread?

It’s a discussion board. If you think this is a genuine problem, report the post, I guess? I’m not eager to hijack someone else’s thread to interject my proposal, nor do I particularly expect a new proposal is very likely to be noticed when people have to scroll to the bottom of a 4-day-old thread to find it.

[Darth_Angeal]

@Arcter

I’m not eager to hijack someone else’s thread to interject my proposal,

What do you think are threads for? To discuss about some feedbacks /issues etc. So it´s pretty normal to go in the same thread, that is already open and still discussed.

@Arcter

to the bottom of a 4-day-old thread to find it.

What are 4 days, if it´s still active?

Do whatever you want, but it just splits the discussion and the overview for everyone.