Teamwork? What teamwork?

Warhammer: Vermintide 2 Feedback
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Now before I get going, I’m sure people enjoy lovely teamwork in pre-mades and existing groups of friends. This is as it should be :slight_smile: and rarely I get to enjoy this kind of thing. We still die to F$$king Bulls$$t but hey.

I’m going to try and put forward some kind of theory against the possible meta of “promoting teamwork”. I read this a lot on these very fora as one of the benefits of the current version and I feel it is wrong. I’m going to suggest that if anything, the current state of the game has made people more selfish, and less inclined to be a team players. In QP at least.

In an attempt to make things a bit more light hearted I’ll be using Shakespearean Language to liven things up. Apologies to the non-english speakers but it’s a bit of fun in another sorrowful topic.

This is based upon play time probably 40% legend, 60% champion as my brother and I plus other we play with have dropped down to champ to try and get a grip on things. Please don’t even use fancy words to wrap up “Git Gud” as an argument. Also I’m going to be a bit extreme as I use the examples, but I hope - and I think it’ll ring true - most people have thought like this since 2.0.x.

This is also pure QP games, either on my own or with 1 of the crew I play with. We’re all Chefs and very very rarely get to all 4 be off at the same time. Gadzooks and a bare bodkin.

Point the first; There’s very little in favour of attempting to rescue a downed person in a horde(especially Beastmen) unless you have stealth - and even then the rescued player is only going to get shanked to bits anyhow… and they’ll be on grey health with little hope of getting THP unless they have a specific build or right conditions. Kruber hitting twenty things with a shield

“Fly Fleonce fly,fly,fly!”

Point the second; Healing is just for ME now, as I can’t get a lot of THP, so you can get stuffed with your non-optimal build, and that person who has been downed and killed four times(As I left them alone to die - it’s just too risky) is now a liability and I’ll adjust my playstyle to not even help them as I need to look after myself as it’s a 3 man run effectively.

“thou knows’t tis common, all that lives must die, passing through nature to eternity”

Point the third; Anyone not lvl 35 is not pulling their weight, and I know it so I EVEN MORE look after number one, even to the point of hiding in a corner with my Bro, yelling to “COME HERE!” and doing nothing when they die, because two of us who aren’t getting fukt over might pull off a complete run.

Point the fourth; I can’t even effectively explain how the changes work other than “Stagger stuff” because this is a pastime people do to relax and don’t want an in depth lecture on bloody convoluted game mechanics.

Point the Fifth; Looking at another players weapon selection gives you a good idea of whether they’re going to get ripped a new one or not. Kruber HS with a 1hsword and a HandGun? You’re down fast. No forgiveness, no redemption. No help when you’re down either :crazy_face:

Now there will obviously be people who are enjoying a more team-play orientated game, but surely we can’t be the only group thinking that it’s every man for himself now.

Go check out your QP games, and when someone gets downed I bet there’ll be a fleeting bit where you thing “Well, you ded.”

Are we going wrong? Or is being punished quite hard forcing people to look after number one?

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I talked about this before. But with an increase in overall difficulty sometimes just letting a player die is the best option. That’s just an unfortunate truth. It was true when I stopped playing and I imagine given this post it’s true for you now.

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Absolutely. Helping someone in trouble just isn’t part of a good game plan any more. Get downed. Die.

Another thing is, no one wants the grim any more because its a solo responsibility.

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LOVED the ‘language’ choice btw!

Interesting points and well laid out; some I thought I disagreed with until I thought about it… Yeah! Hey wait! Yeah I thought that ‘fleeting bit’ too!

There is one point I am not sure I agree with - the ‘Point the second’ where you said healing is just for ME now. I actually think it tends to make players want to SHARE the healing… and for the same reason! tHP isnt really much of a thing anymore, so you midas well share the potion you just drank as the other two tHP choices dont work well, so yeah, Ima use heal SHARE more often

Anyway, great post. Lot of interesting points and also entertaining at the same time! Well done :ok_hand:

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Not saying whether it’s good or bad, but - this is a lot more Vermintide 1. I realized after playing V2 for awhile that it (was) much easier to revive in this game, generally. You had more tools for saving downed players. It seemed pretty standard in V1 Cata to not even try reviving people if you weren’t all together.

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You’re right, but that was VT1 CATA, I’m on about V2! legend/Champ. Leaving people to get lynched by an angry mob in Champion because it’s easierto let them die doesn’t promote team play. I propose that those people who are RESing in a horde in Legend are accomplished players and can pull it off. No so in for the vast majority.

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The best teamwork in Vermintide 2 is the kind where every player in the team can carry themselves and then things simply work out since people are smart and adept to any given situation.

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You’re right and confirm my OP. Look after NO 1.

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There seems to be a culture in this community where speaking to anyone in game is prohibited or awkward. I’ve never seen it to this extent in any other game.
Often times when I speak up about using choke points instead of fighting in the open people will comply and we get through just fine.

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This is a really good point. Possibly it has forced players to Voice Chat more - it has definitely made me get on the mic and say “Find a Choke Point” or “Don’t spread out while the horde is here.” This is a possible benefit of being stamped on a lot.

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Remember that while English is a common language, not everyone in Europe is so fluent.

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That’s precisely the difference between incentivizing teamplay and brute-forcing it. Very well put.

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I disagree with this sentiment. The game mechanics have gotten overall, “tougher” due to new mechanics, granted.

It is tougher to pick up your teammates, but not impossible in all situations. Losing people is a significant disadvantage on higher difficulties, simply just cannot let this happen. Granted, as well, I do not know what Champion is like now post 2.0, simply never play it. Now having played and cleared most maps on Cata, all that’s getting us through it is teamwork, and some on the fly quick thinking, clutching, voice communication and planning.

But if you are playing Legend or Cata difficulties, the less inclined you will be to go cowboy cowabunga on your own, because it will cost the party the game.

If you are playing Champion and even Legend, go ahead and be a cowboy. But don’t try doing it in Cataclysm, nope just GTFO. You have to seriously rethink how you play with the team and manage your role when you play the highest difficulty, or the game will just troll you with waves of specials that you cannot manage on your own. Let your own success rate be your own teacher, being selfish will not allow you to succeed in Cata. Moving down to legend now, is almost steamrolling legend.

I run Legend now when I want to relax and the action is less frantic, theres more time to do things like pick up teammates mid battle. I cannot imagine how much easier it is on Champion? Really picking up your buddy is hard? I don’t think its as hard as what people are pulling off in higher level games.

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A good point. In my case I make notes of certain words in multiple languages and just use 1 word cues and hope they eventually hear a language they know. Like “back” or “funnel”. A remnant from the old WoW days because my battle-group had the South American servers in it where you had Spanish and Portuguese speakers/readers. It may not translate perfectly, but the idea gets across.

Maybe FS should use the Monster Hunter method of having a bunch of preset quick-chat lines in multiple languages that shows selected language per user. So if you select “Backtrack to previous choke point.” in English it will say the equivalent line to others in their selected languages. The chat wheel is okay but it’s really basic stuff where, let’s be honest, most of it is redundant.

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This is highly situational and also depends on the career that you are currently playing with. If the downed player is covered in mobs and I’m playing FK kruber or IB Bardin I will go for the res in 70% of time. But of course, I always assess the situation: Do I have my active ready, how’s my stamina, can I rush in, res and have a clear path for exit? Do I need to rush and bash a $hitload of mobs? Will I have enough stamina to protect the player when he/she gets up? What’s my exit path? Will I get surrounded with mobs?
The thinking process with WH goes like this: Do I have my active ready? If yes, run to the mobs, activate it, res the player and then slash-dance around (I use rapier) until both the player in question and myself are safe again.
If I don’t have my active ready I will check for possible “entry” and “exit points”, i.e, can I dance in, will I have enough stamina to block while resing and more importantly, can I dance out of the “circle of death”.

But to be honest, nothing really changed about this. I’m still resing or not resing in equal percent, i.e, the change in mechanics did not make me more selfish. Unless I’m playing a Slayer That is. When I’m playing Slayer I’m selfish AF :smile: and my thought process goes like this:

  • Player downed
    • Is it an Elf?
      • Yes > Let the bastard die
    • No > I might res but…
      • Do I have my active ready?
        • Yes > Jump in, kill as many enemies as possible and then and only then res the poor bastard
        • No > Who cares, I can’t jump in and slash, let the poor bastard die, he’s not a Dwarf after all :joy:
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Death to the pointy eared leaf lovers!!! :rofl:

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Well at least you got a brother to play with. I spend my days hanging out with 3 bots since in my regional matchmaking players are statistically and reliably worse teamplayers than bots.

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I’ll offer a bit of contrast. For the longest time, whenever I go down or get hit by a special, I don’t expect any help. And almost always it isn’t that other players can’t help, it’s that they choose not to. Countless people are absolutely oblivious or don’t care about their team. I can get hit by a special right next to an ally. Literally next to them. They will let that special 100-0 me and not even bat an eye as they shoot off into the distance or kill a couple ratties. All they had to do was turn around and hit LMB or push.

If I opt to watch out for my ally’s back while they focus on one direction, I assume they aren’t doing the same for me because almost always they don’t. They’ll let things hit me without so much a word. I have to play as if they’re going to drag bosses into me or dodge overheads into me. Walk into patrols haphazardly. Carelessly shoot me when they’re shooting pointlessly at times. Run off wherever without even a clue as to where any team mates are. No sense of team work. This has existed long before Winds of Magic.

My most successful, enjoyable, and easy runs are when people actually do even half of what I do and look out for each other. They wait for allies, they make sure no one is left alone, they’re on top of allies who get grabbed or downed, they squad up when needed or set each other up to be successful, they try to give items to those they think it may benefit most, and so on. It also feels really good when people do work as a team and look out for each other. Those are the funnest matches and people to play with.

Rescuing someone in a horde isn’t difficult, most of the time. A little bit of block cost reduction can help. Revive speed. Using one of a variety of actives to secure a revive. One person revives while the others kill/push. Push and then start reviving. Bombs. I’ve made many revives where they’ve been useful in keeping a run going and a player up. Throw a heal their way if we have one and continue on. If I’m having to horde heals all the time it tells me I should probably adjust my playing.

I noticed certain players place a huge emphasis on temp hp. I always found that odd because it tells me they probably get hit a lot, so they should probably try to get hit less. While I have THP there as a resource, I play as if it isn’t there and don’t rely on it. I get hit a lot less as a result and it has been helpful.

Do you sincerely believe 50 power is going to matter? Either a player is skilled enough or they aren’t. I was playing at level 30 to 35 and clearing maps with others in the same boat. People who complain about minute differences in level are more worrisome than the lower leveled person. Not just because they’ve(complainers of that type) been historically questionable as players, but also because they’re being hostile from the get-go.

There are three states to stagger. No stagger/enemy is behaving normally. 1 stagger and enemy is pushed/dazed/stunned/etc. 2 stagger is achieved by hitting a staggered enemy once. That’s all there is to it. The 20% or 40% damage bonuses(or whatever numbers) apply to those states. They cleaned up the language/function and made it simpler.

Why even play with anyone other than your buddies then if you’re going to be so judgemental and vindictive?

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The kind of idiots you describe cannot play Cataclysm difficulty

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No, but some have tried to. lol.