I just had a Legend game where I was holding the grim with 1 temp health as I’m using a heal share build with Bounty Hunter since temp hp regen is a bit iffy.
Anyways eventually a horde sound went off and I immediately went to a wide corner area for a defensive position. Initially the Waystalker and Footknight were with me but then all of a sudden during the horde they ditched me to run to the Iron Breaker who was standing in a position that could have been flanked easily (open space with 1 rock for defense).
In any case the result was my death and later on positioning again was terrible and it ended up with the Iron Breaker trying to shield bash his way to a res but by then the hordes of enemies got too big and he died.
Update 2.0 didn’t emphasize teamwork because the elements of teamwork were already there. If bad players ignored those elements they would still ignore them in 2.0 just as much.
I think it’s usually better to wait until the res is almost done (or your block is almost broken) and then use your ult. You can press F during the revive, without letting go of E, and it won’t interrupt the revive. If you ult right before the revive finished, then everything is knocked back when your ally gets up, so they have a bit of space to fight in instead of getting smashed right away. If you ult before starting the revive, then the knockback effect wears off by the time the revive is done & it’s more dangerous.
Well, you speak of the facts that it’s now easier to die and harder to revive, and I agree with those findings. My experience for the rest is pretty much completetely the reverse from you though: 2.0 actually forces more teamwork. I’m speaking of Cata mostly, since that is primarily what I played since, but the same principal should apply in any difficulty where nobody in the team can easily solo / duo it.
Precisely because the game is harder, losing one person will hurt a lot more than in 1.6. Losing one often causes a chain reaction that results in a wipe, in fact. Not being able to revive / rescue your teammate anymore, as you describe, isn’t the part that is reduced teamwork; the fact that you were all in such a situation that a revive won’t work anymore is already a sign your team’s teamwork has failed. In fact, if you play as you did in 1.6, your teamwork probably is suboptimal as 1.6 never forced it like 2.0 does.
In all the succesful Cata runs I did (quickplay or otherwise), there actually were a lot of revives. I remember a few games saved by one person left standing who managed to revive the entire team, even. Reviving is so much more important, I even run Revive Speed on my gear now!
You said we shouldn’t reply to your post with “git gud”. Now, please don’t take this personal, but that’s pretty much the only reply that is justified here. Not nescessarily to you personally, but more in general to the team that is spread out and not able to do the - now so very important - rescue actions. 2.0 actually forces you into more teamwork ( = stay closer and watch each other, and coordinate rescue effort) than ever before. And taking “rescue capability” of a class / loadout in mind is now actually worth considering.
This is a good advice I agree. But sometimes the mob is too dense and you need to use your E in order to break through and get to the downed player. But as I said, it’s all in the assessment.
@Perteks
That have always been a thing. People in QP often just don’t give a fuсk about what’s going on, they often know nothing about how this game works, and don’t care about winning the game. I also see lots of people that are just being very bad at this game, they die constantly, get themselves off position, don’t care about boss triggers etc, the only difference between 1.6 QP and 2.0 QP is difficulty, playing 1.6 Legend you could just not notice lots of bullshіt happening aroung you coz game was relatively easy and with at least one other player being not completely useless most runs where very chill. In 2.0 difficulty of Legend have been increased, also Cata arrived, so best players play Legend no more, but those who remain are doing the same as always- here we got such results.
I’ve also noticed an increase in my (and my group’s) teamwork after 2.0. The tougher, more aggressive enemies, together with the reduced dodge, has made it more necessary to keep close to each other, and the Beastmen need even more combined attention. It happened enough before, but now I’ve noticed even more of our wipes being because we got separated too far, and couldn’t help each other.
If the group stays relatively close together, reviving isn’t that big of a problem. Going at it alone is more likely to get you surrounded, which leads both to a probable drop, and much more difficulties in getting you up afterwards - which combine to a fairly hazardous play. This is, in my opinion, the correct direction for the game to move in, even if it makes things even harder in quickplay for a while.
Also, note that I didn’t mention the stagger mechanics in there. Those haven’t really done much for teamwork; everyone still uses their own stagger to add damage, if only because it’s hard enough to follow your friends’ locations and your enemies, let alone figure out what exactly they’re doing. Only on Bosses and a few Elites can you really utilize the staggers others cause, and even then it’s mostly incidental.
Mind you, I play with friends, but I doubt the randoms’ teamwork has gotten significantly worse either. I believe the OP’s viewpoint is rather caused by the random companions still not trusting their coplayers, and keeping the same style they’re used to - and as that works worse now, all its problems now get showcased. Where people could easily handle a quarter of a horde alone relatively easily, they now get surrounded and need even more healing or get downed. Where they could kite a boss as long as they wanted, they need to do it much more precisely now, leading to mistakes. And when they did drop in the earlier game, they still had enough time to wait for their companions to come revive them even if they were relatively far away, but now they get beaten down even faster and getting there takes longer. Of course, the and result might well be or feel the same as an actual reduction in teamwork - separation from the team gets noticed more easily and gets punished more harshly, which leads to the players, both the loners and teamers, dying more.
L4D2 had infinitely more teamplay on expert realism and even that had people taking positions and pursuing individual boons because they could realistically still survive enough to both make an impact and aid the group. You clumped together for special combinations, hordes in which you were in a duo indefensible location, and when the tank spawned. You otherwise maintained close enough proximity that you could aid with ambient kills while still pushing into the stage
Know what else L4D had? A larger grace period from down to death.
A better push as well. When you pushed hordes you actually created a significant breathing room in which you could actually walk around in without being able to go absolutely nowhere due to hyperdense hyperstacked mobs. Also didn’t have a spitter that could permanently keep one survivor stuck in it’s nono field. Didn’t have a never ending stream of specials but even in versus still has better pacing, and on top of that all it STILL has a faster game feel. Huh. Odd. That sounds familiar. Like 1.4 levels of familiar. Must be my imagination!
It was harder without being unfair, required coordination while allow free expression to shine in things like hazard elimination, was better balanced in it’s spawns and defense points (even if some points of defense and routes were imba for the player) and it didn’t stack the games odds in favor of the player getting hit in the situations where you do evade crap.
Let’s go back to new VT2 a game where snip (can’t let the salt get too out of control)
If somebody is downed it’s a race of SECONDS to successfully stage a rescue or they’re dead. You think it’s healthy that you can’t even so much as go and get a bomb solo without, on the off chance that you’re downed, you just dying? Specials constantly engage you in large coordinated waves during large elite/enemy/shield waves making them incredibly hard to engage with unless you’ve got a push bot who can make space. A down player can have two(!) globs of garbage on him by a globadier you physically can’t reach nor target due to tossing behind a building, i’ve seen, as many as 4 times. And because of changes to stacking, valiant charges to a downed player to pick them up before that ticker hits 0 is suicide! And you know what? Why not! I love that!
Grouping
Enemies stack so hard into each other that if you engage in a wave next to anybody else, a hit THEY dodge is a hit YOU take. And due to the damage of globadiers picking somebody up during double globe is suicide. why not just go kill them
I’d love too! But the game is so delightfully stacked that even making space for the Sienna is hard enough alone, never you mind waddling my ass over there with my now crappy as heck jump! I love it!
You either have a shove, push, or stagger bot like a FK, IB, or shield and spear maiden or you do such delightful complete trash like
^Somebody could look at this and say THIS is healthy for the game? Seriously?
I logged back in for a total of one entire game. Just to record, snip, and highlight what this game was for the message of personalizing this post for you.
And yes, if you were curious, this was a win. Fun fact! In that game we were engaging a horde next to each other in a finale. I dodge to the left, the handmaiden eats two attacks in the spot where I was and gets downed because damage is harder to manage because you take more and generate less t.HP! Merc goes down and it’s a horde? Guess we’re leaving him! Thrice!
I made a post about this before. But the second I changed my tactics to the most fun ones like “attacking from a doorway or through a wall” and “doing absolutely nothing in a choke points and letting the team pick off from afar while killing one or two stragglers” things that just are absolutely engaging both for myself and my viewers
and stopped trying to do stupid crap like “helping teammates” and “clearing the area around them” and “picking them up when they’re downed if we’re in the middle of a surround” my clear rates went right back to what they were! Imagine that! Now the only time you need to pick people up is when they’re hit from a mauler that quite literally spawned in thin air behind the handmaiden along with two marauders! Now that’s how you add difficulty! Let’s not forget the pull range of ambients who will sit on a roof screaming at you out of engagement range but are quick to come in along with half the map once a horde starts! Now we’re talking!
I care less now about fighting as a group then I did before because engaging a horde side by side outside of a choke point and without a staggerbot means people get hit more! I’d make one about how absolutely fun and engaging IB in Cata is. But that would involve me playing for one second longer. Playing this game now puts me in an absolute flavorful mood.
Heard a post awhile back. That people just haven’t adapted to having fun with the new gameplay. You know what! You’re right faceless strawman! I’m also sure that with enough bites, I too can also enjoy a refreshing box of crayons.
Again, playing this game now puts me in an absolute flavorful mood. Smarm so deep it just drips from my pores. But I still think I had more fun with the gratuitous sarcasm than I have since 2.0 launching PS: Yes I’m salty!
Edit cubed: Feel free to disagree:
At the end of the day it’s all about gameplay and game feel. The 50% tells me that we’re going to remain split on this forever. Some people like the changes. Some people like the changes a little less.
I rarely played Cata QP, but tried to match some Legend QP, and as I see, things get much worse there, I saw a lot of “tri-ranged parties” where I was the only melee, who was the bullet sponge for that 3 “Legendary players” that where playing absolutely selfishly, never willing to help or even commit in melee at all. I understand that it’s not representative, but from my own experience I see that QP Legend got even worse than it was pre-2.0.
Agreed. THP was broken for so long that so many players adopted the “take swift slaying and generate thp so fast you can just eat hits randomly without worry” and that playstyle just doesn’t work anymore. Which I think is a good thing.
Yeah… teamwork starts with Number One. Be a good teammate and you inspire it in other people. Be judgemental and “only look out for number one” and that’s what you’ll get reflected back to you.
And the hits I take when someone else dodges and I suck up the pain is right up there on my personal list of infurating things.
These two quotes here are absolutely what I’m trying to convey. Things that should be a part of working as a team simply don’t pay off really. Going and getting a downed team mate is ALL risk with very little reward. It’s all very well suggesting people play as a good teammate and it’ll garner better teamwork, but it’s absolutely futile to go and attempt to rescue a downed player in a pool of GlobeSnot while a storm washes over them. It’s fruitless to even attempt a charge as FK into a horde with the 3 second invulnerability as the horde is now around you and it times just right to get you a load of free hits, or the player you revived leaps/dashes/Fire Walks out of it - leaving you to… die in their place?!
Just as an aside, I don’t actually kick that Huntsman with 1h sword and handgun, but I do know he’s going to have a bad time unless he’s very very skilled and even more lucky or he uses some painful cheese tactics like fighting through a wall.
There’s quite an astute point here that anyone very skilled is realistically now in CATA, which leaves those who are Merely Competent to be in Legend. Without the very high skill players in Legend QP the average skill of the Legend Playerbase has gone down - and the example @Nilter gave about Ranged not getting into Melee - why would they when it’s so damn punishing and unforgiving? Is it a surprise people are edging back towards the Ranged Meta?
-leave your team-mates down because its easier to play without them
-dont share health pots because health is harder to get.
earlier in another thread you were saying teamwork in this game is good. nonsense. just look at that. i get it can be annoying to have someone clearly not ready for the difficulty die over and over. i get it. but someone goes down and dont even make an effort to save them? im not saying wipe the run to get one guy up but am saying that its definitely NOT teamwork to just leave him down either.
this is exactly the sort of crap i was talking about when i said teamwork in vt2 is rare as heck. lets be honest, this community is pretty toxic both on the forums and in game.
QP teamwork has always been terrible (that’s why I prefer bots), but QP was still doable pre 2.0 because the game was quite easy. I’m happy with the game becoming more unforgiving because there are two outcomes that seem likely to me, people either learn the basics of teamwork or quit playing.
And that’s exactly what most of my friends list have done. Stopped playing - and that’s at a range of difficulties too, not just because they can’t do Legend or Champion or whatever.
From my experience on QP Legend: yes resing has become much more difficult and I can’t count the times I helped someone up only to get killed myself. However my take away from that is that you actually need the whole team (or at least 2 people) to do it. One to hold off all the mobs and one to res. Applying this tactic I had a lot of engagements where the whole team was defending one downed player and resing him after the horde/ambush. Again: Charging in Solo as a FK or IB is very often just a death sentence for you or in the worst case you get yourself plus the guy you tried to res killed. Now If I try to res someone I make sure that someone else is around as well attempting to help. Depending on the class I switch to either defensive mode or res-duty. And more often than not it works fine and makes for some pretty intense moments. And given all that res only works if you stayed together before someone went down.
So all in all I would actually argue that it kind of promotes teamplay, however it needs a ton of coordination to pull off and don’t expect any res action to be a quick in-and-out sort of deal. It’s definitely not anymore.
This is/was the most stellar community. In close to 1k hours I have never ever seen anybody flame another person. I’ve seen people express frustration at dying themselves either about actions they’ve made or their own death. And in Beta to 1.6 I saw people do extraordinary actions to make sure that another player does not die regardless of the individual skill level of that individual player because they have tools to do so, myself included. It wasn’t flawless, but it was consistently pretty good. So when you say toxic in game? I just can’t agree to that.
People took these risks and put revivals as a thing they particularly did because they had the tools to do so. As slayer I could jump into my ally who’s being buttpoked by a gazillion rats and the space made by crunch let me pick them right up. Now I can’t because that skill no longer exists. As RV I could stealth and the knockback left a reasonably large space that players didn’t die immediately afterwards. Now thanks to hyper stacking and high density hordes, they do because the enemies aren’t targeting me now and because there are more of them my ally will die from hits they simply can’t block yet for that fraction of a second. You rescued in hordes and other bad situations because you could. Now you can’t. And this is without mentioning what a crapshoot things mentioned previously are, are.
Globadiers can and will immediately toss on a downed player. Disablers spawn in combinations of up to 3 meaning that ‘all else’ rescues just aren’t worth it because they can snowball into a full party defeat. Rats, chaos goons, and beastmen all attack with a larger frequency making surrounds harder such that you can run 30% and STILL get stuffed on the rescue attempt.
It’s not “toxic” to put the success of the run in front of picking some player up in situations that guarantees death for him, yourself, or the run. People behave this way because they want to win. And as I’ve illustrated above, it actually has the highest turnout for wins. If you want people to stage rescues, then you have fatshark either raise the damage a downed player can take until death or you give them stronger tools to facilitate rescuing of a downed player.
Lastly, I’ve never seen somebody hog heals even when it was clear a player was dragging behind. I’ve seen a gray player give ME their heal when they’re dragging behind that I give THEM because while the game has changed, the fact remained that I’m still the best player in any of my given team. But never have I ever seen people steal or hog all heals to the detriment of a dying player.
I think most players, even those who have played Legend for a long time, don’t know how to properly res downed players. That’s not really a new problem, though the combat re-tuning likely made it worse.
In general, just going for the res ASAP is a very bad option. What you really should do is attack or push any enemies that are hitting the downed player. Try to draw aggro away so the downed player survives longer. Then kill enough enemies that you can safely revive, which might mean killing all of them, or might mean getting it down to just a couple trash mobs that you can block during the revive. If any enemies are still alive, make sure to push them immediately after the revive so the player standing up doesn’t get insta-downed.
If you have an AoE knockback ult (e.g. WHC), then you can be more aggressive. Start the revive, and save your ult until the revive is almost done, then press F while still holding down E. You’ll ult during the revive, close to the end of it, and then there will be breathing room when the downed player stands up.
If you have another player helping with the revive, the first player should take aggro and try to pull enemies slightly away so the downed player isn’t getting hit by attacks targeting the person who pulled aggro. Then the second player should do the safe revive.
Priority #1 though should always be do not make the problem worse. If you can’t revive reasonably safely, let them die. Better to lose a player for a minute or two until the next respawn spot than to lose the whole run.
For the sake of brevity, you’re not broaching new ground here.
Everybody knows you need to clear first. If you clear first they die. Full stop. There’s an elite nearby and it needs to be contended with? The downed person dies. There’s a special up and it needs to be contended with? The downed person dies. There’s a globadier ANYWHERE on the map? Well that person dies and you die if you go in there to rescue him.
In a down you’ve got, depending on the conditions of the surround that WILL happen, SECONDS to successfully stage that pickup.
No. People didn’t suddenly forget how to rescue. Players with thousands of hours more than I do didn’t suddenly forget basic knowledge. They didn’t forget that ults can be used during rescues, that dashes can be used during rescues, that pushing should be used after rescues. They didn’t forget that coordinated attempts lead to higher chances of successful rescues. They have endless streams of specials, elites, and hordes to now contend with. The realistic possibilities of trying to stage a mid horde/special rescue. The realistic odds of success if they happen to be the best player in their group and they die.
People still use these tools and MORE to stage rescues. Sienna’s still double firewalk. FK’s still dash rescue. WHC still ult close to rescue completion. But now they’re BOTH surrounded because the space you made ended up getting filled with high density hyper stacked mobs so they die. And they die and they die and they die. And eventually they realize that when they stop doing these things using the tools they have in the ways they’re supposed to be used, they die a lot less.
And you know what. I was going to make a video showing you a few exact scenarios because you’ve inspired me to do so. But I can’t even stomach the thought of playing one more. Instead I’ll close with these. There are players besides myself, with multiple solo runs up to 1.6 and some including 2.0. Who still default to letting players die. If this was a l2P issue. This wouldn’t be the case. But it is.
Mobs factually spawn in larger numbers.
There are more elites
There are more coordinated special attacks
Globadiers can now double to quad toss on downed allies out of LoS.
Pushing hyperstacked surrounds gives you no guarantee you’ll even be able to move let alone dodge adequately. There’s a pretty well known and generally considered good player streaming right now. Playing some hard content sure but still playing. And when he goes down, despite having multiple high achievement veterans, it’s just over for him. And not for lack of trying.
Players never knew how to properly rescue? Really? Did the overwhelming majority of the legend and now cata playing community suddenly become stupid?
Aye, there are people here who like to bang on about QP but my experiences at least in QP Legend were always mostly great (Champ was worse but it wasn’t the majority even then).
That is always the worst.
One positive I find with people running barkskin is it makes them much much more tanky when downed, so the chances of a group member rescuing them go up considerably. And it’s always nice if you get pounced and your teammates are slow to react.
You would be surprised haha (at times).
But you’re right, atm with hyperdensity, bugs and so on it’s a nightmare to rez people.
I haven’t noticed any new problems with reviving people, but then the little I’ve been playing has been careers with dash abilities, so maybe that’s why. But I was speaking from experience that most people I’ve encountered in Legend over the past year don’t know to pull aggro and clear before starting a revive. And most people use their ults to clear space before starting the revive, or they dash to the downed player instead of away.
Edit: But yes, I 100% agree with you that combat is terrible for many reasons right now. That’s why I’m barely playing any more.
