Sword & Shield Adjustments

I’m by no means an expert S&S (Sword & Shield) user, but after some thought and experience with the weapon, I think I’ve come up with a set of suggestions that would improve it without changing its identity.

The S&S has a few redundancy issues in some of its attacks and some below average characteristics.

— Redundancy —

  • Give Light 3 the Linesman mass modifier.

Light 1, 2 and 3 all have the same raw cleave, but only the first two lights have the Linesman mass modifier (Linesman in a nutshell lets an attack cleave more normal infantry enemies such as Clanrats, Fanatics, Marauders, Gors etc.).

Doing Light 1 > Light 2 > Block is higher raw dps (damage per second) vs infantry than utlising the full light chain. Light 3 does have a better attack angle for scoring multiple headshots on hordes, but this is limited by it having less effective cleave than the other light attacks.

With this change, Light 3’s better headshot angle vs hordes would no longer be limited by having less cleave than the other light attacks, and while it would still be less raw dps, it would still serve in the role of an attack used when you need an immediate attack to interrupt an enemy about to hit you.

— Heavy Sweep —

  • Give the Heavy Sweep a minor amount of armour damage (about the same as a Falchion light would be appropriate, which would be 3 base armour damage. For reference the S&S’s Push Attack has a base armour damage of 6).
  • Increase the cleave of the Heavy Sweep to match the Bretonnian Longsword’s first light attack.

The Heavy Sweep is meant for kiting but does not fully succeed in this role and rarely sees use (I’m using its higher movement speed than the lights as evidence for an intended role of usage during kiting). This is because of its cleave only being slightly higher than the lights, and its complete lack of armour damage (even the Shield Bash does some damage to armour).

Both of the above two changes could allow the Heavy Sweep to be properly useful when fighting mixed hordes, as its cleave would not be as easily stopped by shields and it would do some minor armour damage.

— Mobility —

  • Decrease the movement slowdown during light attacks by 10%. (Edit: Or whatever value that would make it have just slightly more movement speed during light attacks than Mace & Shield). This is very minor, but currently it’s slower than the Mace and Shield when it should be faster, just like how the 1h Sword has a slightly faster movement speed during attacks than the 1h Mace.

    For reference, below are the movement speed values for the full light chains of all of Kruber’s melee weapons, which I recorded roughly using the MovementDebugVT2 mod, presented in ascending order:

    • Sword & Shield2.60 speed.
    • Mace & Shield2.78 speed.
    • Executioner Sword – 2.81 speed.
    • Halberd – 3.00 speed.
    • 2h Hammer – 3.08 speed.
    • Kruber’s/Saltz’ Greatsword – 3.28 speed
    • Bretonnian Longsword – 3.31 speed.
    • Tuskgor Spear – 3.47 speed.
    • Kruber’s Spear & Shield – 3.52 speed,
    • 1h Mace3.97 speed.
    • Just walking forward – 4.00 speed.
    • 1h Sword4.01 speed.
    • Mace & Sword – 4.17 speed.

I think it’s clear Sword & Shield being so slow move speed wise is odd. It’s the slowest, and not by a small amount. The fantastic mod by Craven that was used to record these values can be found here: Steam Workshop::MovementDebugVT2

— Finesse —

  • Give the Sword & Shield’s appropriate attacks the same finesse buffs the 1h Sword received in the BBB.

There’s no reason for the same sword to do different damage, especially when the Sword & Shield’s lights are slower than the 1h Sword’s (at base attack speed for both weapons, S&S’s full light chain takes 1.72 seconds, while the 1h Sword’s full light chain takes 1.52s).


I believe all of the above changes would:

  • Make all of the Sword & Shield’s attacks have a role.
  • Enhance the Sword & Shield’s unique identity among the shield weapons as a weapon with complex and nuanced attack chains.
10 Likes

Agreed. The attack isn’t special visually, and it doesn’t have any sort of special role or characteristic otherwise. It’s literally just worse than the previous 2 slashes.

I think a great way to make H3 better is to give it Heavy Linesman and elite cleave, with a possible cleave buff as well. My reasoning is that swords in general tend to have this characteristic, like Greatsword and Longsword, plus it would add to its identity of cleaving through hordes nicely. It would help the weapon clean out all the skavenslaves in between like a toothpick. So you’d use light spam for low mass hordes, and L1 → H3 for mixed hordes for damage.

I’m thinking about making a post about this, but I think all standard swords, like 1h sword, should have elite cleave on its heavies.

While this proposed change makes sense, I don’t like it, cause I like movement slowdown during attacks, and didn’t like it at all when it was almost practically removed during the Weapon Rebalance mod.

Again, this makes sense, and if 1h sword is to have it, then this should too for consistency, but I’m not a fan, cause I don’t think it fits the arming swords. They need something else, higher finesse should be reserved for more specialized and exotic weapons.

2 Likes

That really comes down to differentiating weapons from one another, goes back to what I said in the other thread. (Weapon overlap)

1H swords did have pretty low headshot damage so I’d consider this a general buff rather than a defining characteristic.

Did they have 1.4 or 1.6 modifier? Don’t remember.

Anyways, I think 2.0 modifier is a bit too much. 1.8 would have been good enough. Finesse doesn’t just affect headshot damage either, but crit damage too, which I personally don’t think fits the weapon very well.

“1.4 for light attacks, 1.5 for heavies.”

The patch notes say all attacks got bumped up to 2.0 but I’m not sure how accurate that is.

Pretty accurate vs infantry. Finesse multipliers are calculated individually for armor types. Also, crit and headshot multipliers are different from one another depending upon armor type. They are same for infantry.

3 Likes

Ty Ty! Figured as much, It’s quite apparent with Dual Axes.

How would you differentiate Kruber’s sword weapons Sleezy?
(1H Sword, Greatsword, Blongsword, Exe sword & SnS / BSnS)

Not sure what you’re asking me here.

Oh, what do you think should make each sword weapon different from one another?
A little bit of a role/identity & reason to run each weapon.

honestly I think what should be the deciding factors on what makes a weapon picked is playstyle and flavour, a weapon’s role should be a secondary factor in that or rather, an inherent part of playstyle preference.

It’s 5am idk if I’m making proper sense here

2 Likes

Not gonna comment on shields bc I don’t use them and I hate them so that’d be a better question for someone else. As far as strengths, b sword is the all rounder (stagger currently way too strong, push stab too slow), exe is single target damage, greatsword is horde clear, 1h sword is a horde clearing mobility choice that needs some help somewhere to be a competitive weapon choice.

1 Like

aye I agree and dw I get ya, kinda muddled role and playstyle a bit there

Sleezy kinda just read my mind tbh
I use 1H sword primarily as a Huntsman Manbow compliment; They cover each other’s weaknesses pretty nicely. (Though I prefer a shield weapon for easy stagger 2 Manbow BPs)

I think I said before, I feel like it has too many cleave/sweep attacks with little in the way of super armour damage. I’m also guilty of under using the heavies so I’d b happy to see more single target attacks tbh

1 Like

I agree completely. I really like the way falchion is designed. I wouldn’t be mad if 1h swords were more like that.

1 Like

Thrust or overhead heavies would work… or both.
Could try replacing Light 3 (Overhead) with the same damage profile as E1Hsword/Falchion heavies.

Not to get off topic but I agree with Velsix SnS, more mobility, add linesman to light 3 and the finesse buff.

Yeah we actually added more mobility to all the shields in BBB. The actual shield users hated it so we scaled it back. As far as ST attacks, I think it needs to be a change to the heavies, but that’d take a complete rework of the animations. Maybe even just a change to heavy one would keep it from being too strong.

I consider myself a shield user :pensive:… well aside from Axe & shield cuz bleh
The movement slowdown during attacks is what feels kinda meh tbh.
I’m fine with the block move speed and dodge range/count.

Agreed. To be fair, that was early in the mod and we hadn’t really learned how to ignore bad feedback at that point I think.

Always felt like the attack movespeed on shields is unfairly slow. Definitely an old complaint that’s been around since launch.

Not even asking for more move tech, I just genuinely feel getting rooted to half speed just for swinging a sword makes landing attacks and judging distance more trouble than it should be.

2 Likes

Ok so what if we made both sword and shield and 1h sword kinda similar to falchion where they’re versatile/jack of all trades but very much master of none. However the difference between the standalone and the shield is mobility vs crowd control/stam

maybe 1h sword should get a single target heavy similar to what sword and shield has (the big lunge) and work from there?

5 Likes

I ain’t feeling it. Do you mean both lights and heavies? Attack speed/patterns? Or falchion’s damage?

1h sword might not be meta, but does it need a buff? I feel like it serves its purpose, even if it doesn’t feel good on Mercenary or Footknight, you still got GK, Pyro, and UC with enough steroids to make it work well.

As for sword and shield, I just think all of its faults are too easily identifiable and in need of a number tweak to make it feel less cumbersome and ineffective.

Of all of Kruber’s weapons, the only one I’d actually like a significant buff to is bret shield.

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