[Improve] Kruber Swords

Warhammer: Vermintide 2 Feedback
1

Here’s my next power creep suggestion…though making the non-meta weapons work better may not influence the top tier as much as making a more fun tier in my opinion.

Skipping Empire Sword/Shield and Sword/Mace because there pretty much perfect.
Elf and sienna flame sword skipped for bloating the topic.

Bretonnian 2H Sword:

Rotation Adjustment: Light+ Light+ Charge(1st Charge) another sweep rotation.

Damage Adjustment: Charge 3 needs an increase as it’s the single target damage heavy (which has no significant damage boost)

Riposte: Just needs to block faster, wouldn’t be opposed to instant block while charging to see if it’s too powerful at reduced stamina for weapon to 1-2 shields.

Gives Bretonnian 2H Sword even more flair and style, rewarding players who master rotations to get swings they want. New riposte feature rewards and punishes allowing more defense for few hits but open during a barrage.

Empire 2H Sword:

Rotation Adjustments:
-Main/After Push Attack, Light Attacks: 2 Rotation headshot swings
-After Charge Attack Light Attacks: 2 rotation sweeps as is

Maintains the current playstyle while adding more AP options.

Executioner Sword:

Light Attack: Less damage revert attack speed or More damage slower attack speed

Heavy Attack: 2nd Charge attack heavy sweep. Push Attack + Charge into 2nd Charge

If we’re going to slow down executioner sword may as well go all the way giving it more punch for the squeeze of such a big weapon. Changing the light attacks like this will make Executioner Sword the first weapon to have a pseudo 2 charge attacks rotation more rewarding to a planning player more detrimental to the button masher.

1H Sword:

Push Attack: Headshot swing + light attack into 3rd Light

1H Sword has plenty of sweeps adding an AP to the push attack seems like best way to make it more versatile against armor

Bretonnian Sword & Shield:

Damage or Speed: More

It just needs more of one or the other, right now E.S/S outperforms it just by being faster at the same damage, the one thing B.S/S wins in is aesthetics

2 Likes
2

I’d be pretty wary about giving Bret Longsword any buffs, that weapon is in a really strong spot rn

4 Likes
3

This one I agree with, not so sure about the others. It’s a cool mechanic but I find it impractical to actually use most of the time since by the time the block frames show up I could be releasing the attack while dodging or similar which feels generally more effective and leads to higher DPS that just standing around holding the charge. Maybe I’m just bad with it though?

2 Likes
4

it’s definitely unreliable for those first couple frames, especially off-host

I’d wager the main reason it’s like that is because it’d potentially allow you to have an almost literal blade barrier if you just rotate through H1-H2-block cancel

1 Like
5

That does make sense, though I’m not sure how long your stamina would last anyway against a mixed horde this way, though FK with his potential 80% BCR could probably do some nasty work with it. Also come to think of it GK with his 60% Stam regen could probably be pretty safe doing a pure heavy rotation. Hmmmm yeah not really sure what could be done about that one.

1 Like
6

If I may offer my own suggestions for balancing the Bretonnian Longsword:

  • 0.25 inner block cost modifier for the riposte feature would make sense.
  • l2 - h1 chain would be nice. Good idea.
  • Remove the slower movement speed while charging h2 so that h1 and h2 have the same movement boost. Lower the movement boost a little on the heavies as it’s excessive (should still be a boost, maybe even just 7.5% less).
  • Slight boost to movement of l1 and l2 (10% less slowdown) to help it stay semi-competitive on GK.
  • Lower dodge distance to 1.15 from 1.2 so the 1h sword can compete/because it’s appropriate for a weapon that’s between 2 handers and 1 handers.
  • Slight reduction in bodyshot armour damage while retaining current armour damage on headshot since it’s a sword and it’s armour bodyshot damage is a bit high (same/similar dmg to 2h hammer).
  • Cleave on l1 should not be higher than the cleave of the Greatsword’s lights.
  • Give l3 a decent movement curve boost to encourage users to mix it in with the standard l1-l2-block cancel and l1-h1 chains.
  • Make l1, l2 and l3 block cancel more easily to mitigate the vulnerability it has while attacking.

Overall nerf with some buffs scattered in that mainly target underutilised aspects of the weapon.

The benefit is that it lets you get attacks out in situations where you would have to just block or use a light instead. If it had an appropriate 1.15% dodge distance instead of 1.2, and a less excessive movement curve on h1/h2, it would see more use, though I do agree it could be snappier.

4 Likes
7

Sorry, but you can’t just buff good Weapons and not add any downsides whatsoever.

Both of these Weapons can do great on all of his Careers, with the exception of Empire 2h on Huntsman. Maybe you can still Light spam with it, and benefit from all the Crit to get SS up, but 2H Weapons aren’t great for him anyway.

Adding Elite damage to Empire 2H just turns it into a better Bret 2H.

Bret 2H is already well rounded and I don’t see any need to buff it at all:

  • You can spam Push-Attack > H3 > L3 > H3, etc- until Elites die (all overheads)

It has Cleave/Stagger close to Emp 2H Sword, while having good single target, with that combo.

1 Like
8

I just don’t think they are that good, executioner or 2H hammer beat both for damage and utility.

9

Bsword is much safer than executioner though by a longshot so I’d play it on the more conservative side when it comes to buffing it, if at all.

Bretonninan sword and shield could probably use some tweaking for sure, right now it’s pretty much there for the shield bash and not much else

3 Likes
10

They both have access to faster Lights, and good Stagger from Heavies, and most importantly damage Cleave.

GK/FK/Merc can all stack Power and Cleave, meaning that they can Stagger most things without needing 2H Mace. Especially if you go for headshots.

With the Lights, they’re capable of attacking while moving, offering way more safety while having damage output than 2H Mace, and more Stagger from those Lights than Exe Sword.

The Lights do almost the damage than 2H Mace heavies do with the Bret Sword, while also having more damage Cleave.

Looking at the damage numbers of Bret Sword vs 2H Mace, I don’t 2H Mace does do more damage. Unless you’re talking about specifically single target?

Even using it, the speed and mobility of Bret Sword makes it a better Weapon, as it’s less frustrating and has is more safe.

As for Emp 2H Sword, it’s already extremely good on Cata+, and for CCing large amounts of enemies with the Power Stacking, and better Lights than Exe, in terms of Stagger, Cleave and Base Damage- and so does Bret 2H Sword.

As for utility:

Exe Sword:

  • High single target damage
  • Shield breaking heavies (I think?)
  • Elite Cleave on Lights
  • 0% dodge distance
  • 2 dodges

2H Mace

  • Shield breaking Lights
  • High Stagger and decent Cleave damage on Heavies VS Elites
  • High movement on Heavies
  • decent single target damage
  • 0% dodge distance
  • 2 dodges

Bret 2H Sword:

  • Lights with good Cleave and Stagger, while having decent mobility
  • Push-Attack Shield Break
  • decent Stagger high Cleave damage on Heavies VS Elites, and decent mobility (it has decent movement on Heavies, but it’s best to Push to restart the H1 and H2 chain)
  • Riposte
  • 20% dodge distance
  • 3 dodges

Empire Greatsword:

  • Push-Attack shield break
  • Decent AS/Stagger/Cleave Lights, but slower movement
  • decent Stagger high Cleave damage on Heavies VS Elites, High movement on Heavies (because they buffed it for no reason)
  • 10% dodge distance
  • 3 dodges

They’re capable of pretty much the same thing, but are safer and more mobile. Exe Sword and 2H Mace aren’t even worth picking for me, when Bret 2H exists for Cata and 2H Greatsword exists for Cata+.

On GK I’ll meme about with Exe, but spend most of the match spamming with Shield+Mace, until Elites.

Sometimes I run 2H Mace on FK with the AS Ult and Mainstay (for bullying Chaos Warriors), but that’s it.

1 Like
11

I don’t see either 2H sword stagger consistently enough to be safe, 2H Hammer will stagger everything short of bezerkers/bosses so very predictable to me. Easy to pump out AP and shield breaks with light attacks. Execution having the reverse in rotation without the stagger but with how slow it is why I asked to just change it to match/increase its slowness for more punch.

The weird cleave angles of B2HS is somewhat shallow even blinding at times or will leave you open in parts of the chain. With the headshots just getting in the way until you need to break a shield.

The E2HS has a fun niche of armor cleave and high damage charge but the lights are substandard and not really very useful to me.

I enjoy testing the weapons more so will try the strategies you suggest!

1 Like
12

Brettonnian S&S is a bit funny. When judged purely by itself it’s actually pretty good. Its H1 does very respectable single target / armor damage, and its shield component is great in horde control. Relatively light on horde damage, but it can certainly deal with those as well, and it is therefore a pretty decent allrounder.

The irony however, is that BS&S can only be used on the class that doesn’t really need allrounder weapons, because he can bring two melee weapons. “Allrounder” is just not the quality GK needs on his shield weapon. ES&S provides great control and safety, in combination with better horde damage. ES&S is a little less good for single target damage, but GK doesn’t need that because his second weapon can probably do that better anyway, and because of his ult. And M&S with crit bonus is very competitive with BS&S for damage because of GK’s talents.

Purely by itself the BS&S is pretty cool. Try play a round with no second weapon, and you’ll see it holds up pretty well, as well as being a characterful and stylish choice. But the context of GK makes it a sub-par option, sadly. It’s a real Catch-22 weapon…

5 Likes
13

Yeah why the hell is Bret SnS exclusive but Bret LS isn’t? I would love to use Bret SnS with FK, might end up being my preferred shield option for him honestly.

4 Likes
14

YUP

it’s kinda unfortunate that GK only ever needs the shield bash component, the rest is covered by other weapons which excel more than a shield weapon ever could

2 Likes
15

I kind of suspect a part of what makes the BS&S work is GK’s sweet damage bonus passive. But if it was available with that or a similar damage profile to the other Krubers, my hypothesis is that it would be a super competitive weapon on all 3 of them.

1 Like
16

Strongest reason i see for it being exclusive is lore reason - bretonnian heraldry on a shield wouldn’t fit a man of Empire, especially from a knightly order.

But when i think about it more - the imperial shields also has specific Empire imagery, yet Grail Knight, a bretonnian noble, have free access to them. Maybe cause GK is further in his timeline, he can reminisce about his old days by bringing Empire shields?

Anyways, its true that Bret shield, a versatile shield weapon, is wasted on him, and should be made available for other careers.

Devs also could make a couple of illusions for Bretonnian shield - which will have Empire imagery painted on the model. This will take care of the lore problem (for those who care).

Don’t forget that Merc and FK have their own ways to buff melee.

2 Likes
17

Fair enough, but BS&S’s strenght is its good single target damage, since it lacks in horde damage (as oppossed to horde control, which it does well enough). Without GK’s damage buff, it isn’t that great in any type of damage output at all.

That is the problem with classes with such big damage bonusses, I guess. Hard to balance weapons so that they’re good on one class, without being overpowered or too weak on other classes.

3 Likes
18

Yeah

if you try dual axes, for example, on any other class (using the any weapon mod) it feels real underwhelming

1 Like
19

Bret shield is the Krub wep that I want a substantial buff for. Besides greatsword, but we’ve been there already.

Consider the following

The first light attack is as slow as the heavy attack.

In fact all of its attack animations are slower than regular sword and board

On the one class where attack speed is a legitimate obstacle, this seems a little harsh. And since it’s class locked, devs have total control of its balance so there’s no scenario where tweaking its speed makes it a godbreaker on someone like merc or fk. There’s really no reason to take bret shield for anything other than style points since regular shield can do the same but efficiently without the extra obstacle.

Ideally, I’d ask for all light attacks sped up. Hopefully at least the first light attack will have an appropriate attack speed so it doesn’t take so long to get to the shield bash.

6 Likes
20

Lol even the push attack is slower despite being the exact same damage profile and animation… Why? Does Bret SnS at least have better attack range?

1 Like