more like the role it has
Give us halfswording and mordhau, Fatshark. DO IT YOU COWAARRDDSS!!!
I mean you just admitted you hate and don’t use the weapon. Listening to people who main it and love is seems very reasonable? Was one of those shield users who didn’t like the movement changes @TmanDW per chance? I feel like I vaguely remember that interaction about shields.
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S&S having low armor damage, but high finesse on stabs, only somewhat balances it IMO. Either buffing the base damage or adding a small amount of Crit chance to the weapon’s stab would give it some of the armor damage needed to function. Especially the heavy sweep doing nothing to armor.
Low cleave on light 3? Easy enough fix.
Determining how mobile the weapon ~should~ be is more difficult. Given lower range than spear and shield, mobility could start around here, especially because spear and shield doesn’t have a heavy shield bash.
Personally I think “short blades” having a higher finesse multiplier fits nicely to the real life counterpart. More control over the point of the blade for better access to vitals.
The 1h Sword is quite meh imo. Its move speed is less than Greatsword’s charged attacks which have 4.30 speed (1h Sword has at most 4.01 speed). This difference gets larger the more attack speed the player has. Its heavy attacks don’t belong on a sword (2h Hammer stagger cleave and damage cleave), and it isn’t a safe weapon despite it being meant to be safe. The list I gave makes the 1h Sword look good but most of Kruber’s weapons have better move techs than light spam (1h Sword doesn’t).
It’s usable, but it’s not good on Huntsman. Compare it to Rapier on BH, or even just Dual Swords on Waystalker. It doesn’t help that Huntsman doesn’t have thp on cleave and the charged attacks are subtoptimal dps (L1 > L2 > Block Cancel is optimal vs hordes).
The one thing it does have is surprisingly decent monster dps vs monsters that have a window large enough for the full light chain.
Slight boost to move speed during attacks, probably the lights/overhead, increase dodge count to 4 (should have 1 more dodge than Bret Sword), make the overhead better vs shields, make the charged attacks something else like single target focused.
As far as Sword & Shield’s move speed goes, I’m not out to change the weapon’s identity/make the weapon feel dramatically different in case anyone is worried, I just want it to not be slower than Mace & Shield. Logically it should be slightly faster for the reasons listed in the op.
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Is that accounting for heavy attack having a good angle for multiple headshots? Or is the damage cleave so low it doesn’t matter?
Should we perhaps also ask whether Bret sword ought to have 3 good dodges? That weapon seems like a very strong all rounder to be comparing to.
Not that I disagree 1h sword should have 4 dodges, to be clear.
Yes to both unfortunately.
I think Bret having 3 dodges is fine, rather its dodge range could be reduced to 1.15, as that would put it neatly between the Greatsword and the 1h Sword, which is appropriate for its hand-a-half-sword type.
My main thinking with the 1h Sword having 4 dodges is it shouldn’t have less than the Falchion or AnF, and it should bring something unique to Kruber’s melee weapon arsenal (only other one of Kruber’s that has 4 dodges is the Bretonnian Sword & Shield oddly enough).
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Yeah that was kinda my thinking on deferring. I guess bad feedback isn’t the right word. The right way to say is that we didn’t properly weight feedback. Kinda like how FS overreacted to feedback about swiftbow and volley in the BBB. Should have left the movement curve alone for a while to see if people who didn’t already like shields would be more interested in using them if they didn’t feel like you were in quicksand.
Also, I have no idea who was giving the feedback. Honestly doesn’t really matter at this point.
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I’ll take your word. Personally never had an issue with 1H sword Huntsman horde DPS or stagger THP.
But I will say ever since the Bret longsword timing tweaks, it’s slowly been taking over for Huntsman.
Generally feels like it can do everything 1H sword can but more while being safer…
Probably not a good balance baseline though 
Personally I always found it weird that between the 3 sword types theres always a bit of inconsistency between them whether it be dodges, their cleave profiles on lights, and damage differences on lights. Empire Sword has 4 Dodges/20% dodge distance/4 stamina, Elf Sword has 100 dodges/25% dodge distance/3 stamina, and Falchion has 4 Dodges/20% dodge distance/3 stamina.
A bit of consistency inside the weapon archetypes would be nice in my eyes with the heavies/combo lines between them be what sets them apart. Falchion brings along more straight forward armor damage out of all the swords (even if it is kinda stepping on axes toes), Elf Sword used to be a versatile weapon with 2 combo lines back when heavy 2 had a sweep profile, and Empire Sword just brings more control with it’s heavies having high stagger cleave.
For example right the differences in spears basically just come down to heavy order, single target vs cleave/stagger sweep heavies, AS on lights, cleave profiles on sweep/pushattack, combo lines. As a result of these small changes the spears type weapons feel similiar to use but have their own little quirks that help them stand out from each other.
Patching the inconsistencies between the 1H swords and doing these small changes should create similiar results to the spears.
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The issue here is that weapons are not only describing weapon characteristics in Vermintide but also the characteristics of the wielder, at least sometimes. It is not cleanly separated in all cases. For example the elf sword (or all her weapons) have higher dodge counts and range. That is not because the weapon is that good but because Elfs are considered nimble and more mobile within the lore. That is what makes direct comparison of weapons across different characters complicated.
You could solve this also by having the weapons having identical stats (if same weapon) and add character modifiers/passive traits. From a result standpoint it doesnt make a difference. From a balancing standpoint it has more utility though if you integrate it into the weapon because you can finetune better instead of tinkering with “global” modifiers.
As for the values given with the specific weapons. The Empire Sword is used by Markus which is sturdier, so it makes sense to have more stamina. However, Empire Soldiers are not known for their nimbleness so the dodge distance at least appears a tad to high. Elf Sword on Elf has already been mentioned, although I would say nothing in this game should have unlimited dodges. Even 10 dodges is something you realistically would close to never approach. Hard to tell for stamina values, I don’t know that much about Warhammer Elves. The Falchion is a shorter light sword for a more nimble character. So it also makes sense to have 4 dodges and higher dodge range. However, the stamina for a light sword on a more nimble characters appears to high. 2 Stamina would be more in line weapon/character identity.
So, yea there is overlap of different effects which has to be considered. Unless we separate those effects cleanly we can’t say identical weapons should have identical values by cross character comparison. This is something which Fatshark has to solve.
Generally, it is necessary to look at all weapons on a base by base case which is considered in how they are structure right now. Important is the identity at the end in line with the characters and the weapon. If for example you would increase mobility for shield weapons they wouldnt feel like shield weapons anymore. Shield lovers would stop using them. Empire Soldiers and Dwarves are more brute, less nimble. So their weapons should feel also a bit more sluggish. If you weapons to smooth or fast they dont feel like weapons, they feel like toys.
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This is about to get very convoluted but what you’ve said does give me an idea. If instead of global modifiers, each character/class had weapon by weapon modifiers that would allow you to have weapons like 1h sword for Sienna/Kruber that are identical in themselves, but individually tweak how they perform for each character/class. Such a system would theoretically allow the most individual fine tuning for weapons that are shared.
Of course it would be pretty impenetrable to decipher and I doubt the game would communicate such modifiers well. It would probably do more harm than good untimately in the current state of the game and would require more work than it’s worth. Wanted to put the idea out there anyway.
I mean falchion used to have 2 stamina shields and it was needlessly poor defensively for its damage output. Appropriate for dual daggers, and maybe Sienna dagger, but otherwise probably not a great idea. Could perhaps work if such weapons had a higher block cost modifier within their effective push/block arc, which would be fitting with their more finesse based identity. Basically like they were pseudo parrying within their effective block angle.
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It would be nice for each character to have defining weapons characteristics.
More meaty/weighty feeling weapons too. BUT, I don’t think it’d work in a game where only one of each character can be picked & the combat is more crowded than the likes of V1.
Otherwise yeah I’d love for more heavy handed weapon characteristics. 
I’m fine with more shield move speed during attacks, their slowness isn’t what makes them a shield weapon.
Well, we already have this partially with careers modifiers like +Stamina for Ironbreaker. Which is why I said that it isnt cleanly separated. We neither have state A (separation into weapon, character, career effects) nor state b (everything summarized just in weapon stats). We have this mixing which makes comparisons difficult.
While I would agree that some better stuructured system would help, I don’t think it is realistic to see a complete change of how these parameters are applied just to get the same result we have now. From a balance standpoint it is enough what we have right now, even when kinda obscure in parts.
Hm, I wanted to reject this. But the comment about pseudo-parrying could be used as reasonable argument. So a slightly higher internal BCR and maybe also wider block/arc to represent the nimbleness. For the stamina I stay though. People are talking about identity, identity all the time and I just don’t see medium stamina for a light weapon. Doesn’t fit in my book. So some kind change as you suggested would be more fitting and interesting.
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Basically yeah. General idea being you can achieve a similar level of defensiveness as now by swapping a BCR property for a stamina property, but you better keep attacks within your block arc or you’ll quickly be out of luck. A bit more skillful and thematically fitting for such weapons.
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Hm, then let’s agree to disagree. If you are carrying something heavy in your second hand, you are by nature slower while attacking. You can test this by yourself with a stick and a dumbbell. For me it is part of the weapon identity for shields that you have this slow movement while blocking and also attacking. Axe & Shield which I use the most, feels for the largest part really good. I would argue that the Attack Speed is a tad to high. Then it would feel close to perfect for a shield weapon.
But nothing about this is about Sword & Shield, so I should stop derailing 
Sword/Shield should be the compromise between the Heavy control of Hammer/Shield and the fantastic damage of Spear/Shield.
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making shield weapons a lil less sluggish wouldn’t be too absurd, they shouldn’t be as nimble as standalone weapons ofc but there’s a lot of wiggle room there
Big problem that’s already been highlighted is that the heavy slash doesn’t achieve enough, the 3rd light needs linesman and the finesse multi should be brought up to par (or close to) with the standalone 1h
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For example the elf sword (or all her weapons) have higher dodge counts and range. That is not because the weapon is that good but because Elfs are considered nimble and more mobile within the lore.
This type of logic and mindset is the reason why when the game first launched everyone that wasn’t an elf had terrible dodge stats (and it’s still a thing in v1). If we start going by lore etc then dwarves/elves should have more innate hp than humans and the idea of Zealot having 150 HP despite being a lean stick with minimal armor isn’t possible. Hell even the very idea of 5 no name heroes going against wave after waves of enemies and never exhausting in a mission is highly unlikely.
I’m not saying here that you can’t make the argument for lore hindering or enabling certain aspects of the game (like trollhammer being locked to ironbreaker/engineer) but when lore starts getting in the way of how gameplay is treated it’s time to just ignore it and push through with what’s better for the game’s gameplay loop like they did back during the dodge balance.
IE: slayer/GK having access to bombs/barrels, UC being a thing despite no known wizard being able to withstand such high volumes of magic, dodge thing I mentioned earlier, certain weapon locks, engineer’s minigun having essentially infinite ammo in a mission, the idea of GK ever dying to trash units since their literal demi gods, Slayer being able to hittrade and not die despite walking around bare chested, Zealot being able to eat overhead after overhead as long as he has Feel Nothing up, BH Ult not needing to reload during a Concotion HS reset chain, shout’s staggering everything up to monsters and put them on their ass, FK being able to Wide charge through everything despite being only a normal human, merc kruber’s shout being able to revive a incapped teammate etc
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Late to the thread again, but here are my thoughts for who cares.
Sword & Shield has pretty much been replaced as my go to weapon for shielded Footknight by Mace & Shield, mostly because of M&S outperforming S&S damage wise and having more synergy on that build. (And clunking an entire army over the head non-stop is pretty cathartic.) Which is a pity, actually, because S&S is actually one of my all time most favorite weapons in Vermintide 2. That’s a bit because of its iconic nature, but mostly because of its absolutely amazing moveset design. It’s such a fun and satisfying weapon to play! It has several combos that are all great for specific situations, and once you’re at a point where you can do those combos instinctively and can actively switch between them to adapt to the situation, that to me gives some of the very best feeling this game has to offer. The weapon is versatile and never useless, while still having clear strenghts / weaknesses, and a very distinct identity and gameplay that sets it apart from other weapons. As far as subjective standards to which balance and design in my opinion should aspire to as discussed in another recent thread, S&S comes pretty close for me.
As for its role gameplay wise compared to other Kruber "shield + weapon"s, I think S&S is actually the very best control weapon he has in his arsenal. It outperforms Mace&S in control due to its much faster bash alone. I love imperial S&S on GK as a secondary weapon to get out of tight spots or to switch to a more support role on the fly. While on the other hand the damage of S&S is pretty bad, unfortunately. It also suffers in that its lights are pretty redundant because the light 1 - heavy sweep - repeat combo exists, which outperforms the light-1-to-3 combo. I very much like the suggestions of buffing light 3 and making heavy sweep good at something like mixed hordes, giving you more different useful combos for different situations. That builds on S&S’s design and increases the skill ceiling. Absolutely great suggestion! I also am very much in favor of giving S&S the headshot buff normal swords got. If not for consistency’s sake, then for a slight skill-dependant damage buff that this weapon needs. As for movement slowdown on attack: I am not really in favor of changing that, because it distinguishes the feel of “shield +” weapons from their unshielded counterparts, and it prevents poor shieldless weapons from becoming completely inferior a little as well.
All this talk about shields makes me want to play again, but I can’t right now and that makes me sad, so I’m going to wrap up this post then.
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