[Swift Bow] A Buff

It isn’t about nerfing you say but herp derp let’s nerf hagbane in a thread about swift bow. It is about green circles and you want hagbane nerfed so you and your buddies can get green circles.

If only you understood anything you were reading.

6 Likes

As far as hagbane it’s just the nature of poison to ignore armor making it good against low health elites and bosses when spammed if it was nerfed perhaps a slight reduction in boss damage and not staggering armored elites as much.

For Swift bow any new firing style, faster charge shots or a built in bleed would bump it up just enough.

3 Likes

No-one here cares about green circles, I don’t know why you’re bringing them up constantly. It really just sounds like you don’t want to have to try harder to get them yourself lol.

Why not offer a solution as to how swift bow could be buffed into an actual option that isn’t just completely outclassed by hagbane?

1 Like

Don’t play much Kerillian but after reading through this thread thought I’d try our WS swift bow a bit with a few different traits to see how it feels (legend with bots).

It’s kinda fun to use, but what really bugged me about it after a few runs was that I felt I’d traded all my ranged armour and special killing ability for a horde clear weapon that just isn’t that great at horde clearing.

Whether the horde was lined up or spread out, whether holding left click or spamming charged shots, it just didn’t feel like it was doing its main job that well. To me it mostly came down to cleave. I felt like my bleed dots were getting wasted hitting enemies already about to die, who were soaking follow up shots and with the incredibly low cleave this lead to a pretty mediocre kill rate. Sure a big part of that’s probably just skill, but I dunno how a weapon like this is meant to do its job properly with this little cleave.

Other people have pointed out plenty of interesting ways to give it a hand, for me if it cleaved a bit better with both light and charged shots it’d at least feel good at its main niche.

As a side note, is there any situation currently where the rapid fire is actually desirable? Felt more effective to charge shot in almost every situation.

3 Likes

Oh it’s not about green circles but just look at all the “suggestions” here, almost every one of them is a suggestion to nerf hagbane (boss damage, crowd control, stagger) and nothing to do with addressing core issue with swift bow, let alone buffing it. It’s as if nerfing hagbane somehow magically makes swift bow good.

A simple way of budding swift bow is to make charges shots stagger armoured specials and boost its base damage.

1 Like

I’ve found that you are very much correct; even then, I don’t ever see Swift-Bow with increased cleave being as potent as Hag-Bane in horde-clearing due to the nature of hordes to spread out when they can; admittedly, ammo-expenditure per Swift-Bow arrow is of your maximum quiver but it also yields so little. Not to say that Swift-Bow shouldn’t get more cleave, simply that I still don’t think it’ll compete with Hagbane even with a cleave buff.

I’d also say that rapid-fire was extremely conditional (and mostly for people who are panicking) but that someone with good tracking and game-knowledge can deliver a Long-Bow head-shot in the same time it takes to “panic” out 3 arrows with Swift-Bow into a Leech/Gutter/Pack-Master. There’d have to be some massive damage buff (but then Long-Bow is just worthless) or some improvements to utility/ammo-production (maybe giving it a passive ammo regeneration so that flinging 100s of arrows per map is totally reasonable).

I don’t know, though, it’s hard to say what can make it compete without first seeing small upward changes and tweaks and, potentially, changing how the specialist tools operate.

It does.

It doesn’t make it as statistically capable, but it does move it up in the list of what’s best and what’s worst. If you award Gold, Silver, and Bronze medals to the top 3 competitors in a sport, then kick the gold medalist out… it doesn’t improve the times for the other competitors, but it certainly changes who gets which medal.

The goal of balancing weapons and careers is never just to bring them all up to the same point. In order to balance Kerillian, and her Swift-Bow, we must consider also balancing each of the careers/weapons around the difficulty of the game and the enemies. As it stands: the Swift-Bow needs to compete better with the difficulty of the game, but Hagbane is actually a little overtuned compared to the difficulty of the game and it makes being Waystalker trivial on most difficulties.

The only reason we suggest tuning down Hagbane is because so long as it takes the gold medal, Long-Bow takes the silver medal, and X-Bow takes the bronze the Swift-Bow will never be picked for anything other than goofing around.

2 Likes

For rapid fire usage, I’m not sure the exact numbers compared to its charge shots on bosses but it’s easy to at least get barrage stacks up before using charge shots if that’s more damage per second.

Otherwise just easier to deal with close range light armor special by just unloading on them or stray enemies.

I agree with you. Indeed I posted some ideas to buff Swift Bow and give to it a better niche.

It’s not about green circles, it’s about giving other builds an opportunity to shine. When hagbane is so good, you can’t easily make other weapons in similar niches seem useful without also making them OP.

Same applies to a bunch of weapons on other classes I play (though I play a bunch of WS anyway). How do you make more of saltz weapons be useful when he has some that are so busted strong without just making the others super strong too? How do you make more choices for BH ult when double shotted is so ridiculously strong with a little bit of aim?

For a more extreme example you can look at BW. She had plenty of other possible builds, but why would you really run any of them over lingering+famished? Let alone the ffa + famished combo on beta. Nerfing that build helped her variety a bunch.

How do you keep difficulty in a game relatively similar if the solution to balance issues is just powercreep?

Why would you bother running it over hagbane here? It sounds like the only advantage it would have is maybe staggering some more specials, while being worse everywhere else. It would definitely be a possibility to buff the weapon, but I don’t think it would make it relevant on its own.

It clearly needs buffs too, but unless you buff it so it’s broken good, it’s still going to have the issue of “strictly worse than hagbane”. Nerfing hagbane somehow makes that less the case, and helps creates more choice. It has nothing to do with circles.

3 Likes

I don’t agree guys, I wrote some buff that could make Swift Bow strong but not op… without to nerf Hagbane.

But it won’t ever be stronger or as strong as hagbane unless you make swiftbow overpowered.

3 Likes

What if Swift Bow had a buff to damage vs non armored enemies?

This would then make it better vs hordes, some specials/bosses/berserkers.

Hagbane is a bit too good in an all rounder sort of way.

You could for sure make it less terrible (and should), but I think it would still be stuck in the “why would you run this over hagbane” spot unless there’s some nerfs to go alongside it.

1 Like

Honestly I don’t agree… If we applied my idea Swift Bow would have a niche.
But, for sure, to see if it would still be still overshadowed we need some in game tests. For this I repeat to proceed step by step.

Why is it that ppl here have this mentality that as long as hagbane is stronger than swift bow, then swift bow wont be picked? Is it because subconsciously you guys want to maximize your chance for you know green circles and have to pick the best bow for the elf? See, I used to run swiftbow exclusively on shade back in 1.6 days because it was just fun to use, not because it was op, or on par with hagbane or filled a niche. The reason why I am not running swift bow anymore is because it doesn’t scale well in cata in terms of damage and it just can’t handle any armoured elites. Hence my suggestion for boosting base damage and stagger against armoured specials. Again I just find the idea that every weapon has to be equal in terms of power to be viable really strange.

Because if a weapon is explicitly better than another, there’s no real choice between them? Running something for memes or just because you’re bored of meta isn’t providing real choices or build variety.

I run falchion on saltz sometimes because the meta weapons are boring, but there’s absolutely no real question of what I’d run in any situation where efficiency mattered. Buffing every single one of his weapons to the level of billhook or A+F would just make the game even easier, particularly long term if you’re relying entirely on powercreep to balance.

Viable is such a low bar in vermintide that I don’t think it’s really worth talking about, myself. Not every weapon needs to be exactly equal in power obviously, but they should have at least a niche they sit in where they’re strong and arguably the best choice. Swiftbow (and a bunch of other ranged weapons) currently doesn’t. It’s unlikely to get that while hagbane is so good.

this doesn’t even make any sense

2 Likes

There is a niche Swiftbow could be put into that wouldn’t effect the other two bows - fast skirmisher. Weapon swap super fast, aimed shots super fast, hip shots rapid fire (already has this part). Give it good dodge distance. It wouldn’t be a powerhouse, but it reacts and shoots so fast you can weave it into the melee dance. That’d make it a good pick just for the sheer fun of it, even if it excelled at nothing.

3 Likes

This is the niche I thought it already filled? That and a barrage delivery device.

Don’t get me wrong, if it could be made to do that better, I’m all for it.

I guess I’d be down for the charged attack having better headshot damage to reward good aim and make armor specials less of a hassle.

1 Like

There is an absolute need to have weapon tiers in terms of power and efficiency or else you would just have a situation where every weapon plays the same and has the same experience, an equal result or output. That is boring and that is why if you look at other games, pvp or pve, most of them have weapons or abilities that are just clearly better than others, that just stand out. But this isn’t a problem as long as all weapons are viable. Note being viable doesn’t mean they should all function similarly or have equal power. This is what gives players real choices, not the fake choice where the players are forced to choose among equally bad weapons. It is important to remember that this is a game where players are supposed to have fun, not minimizing or maximizing your build efficiency to get those green circles at the end of a game. So who cares that hagbane outperforms swiftbow, as long as swiftbow is buffed to be viable on cata like it was back in 1.6 legend, players will start using it.