I would love if they just took out the lack of ammo. I’d be fine with just getting rid of ammo lol
Having said that, i haven’t run out of ammo since probably the beta, on any class. My zealot never even comes close (evis/headhunter combo), my vet is the same (claw/lasgun).
I only use my guns for elites and specials though. Shooting a horde just doesn’t seem efficient vs melee
There is a lot of mutual exclusivity there. A lot. guranteed crits and magical reloads for example comes from the right side that is better played as a melee leaning hybrid than ranged play I’m asking for while also giving up most of if not all the +ranged damage and +weakspot you noted.
So I don’t think listing everything a tree has to offer is convincing in the slightest.
I don’t find posting gunlugger screenshots much of a proof of anything on a thread focused on wanting enjoyable shooter focused gameplay for Vet/Human weapons.
As you and many other I can play gunlugger or better yet hybrid ogryn build and melt the screen with ranged fire with any of it weapon types while having highest survival stats in the game.
In general I’m kinda baffled by some of the replies opposing to what I ask. I’m not sure how the: “nothing has changed you can still shoot as much as you want”, “It was a good change because there is less ammo”, “You should melee more it’s not a shooter” can be put together rationally, but whatever.
I guess the question is for FS really, they were the ones that pushed Vet into this hybrid role where melee and support roles have more use than gunplay. I’m curious if it is intentional to push the games former premier ranged class here or they still think Vet is still the “ranged specialist” and it’s just sh-t now.
NGL if they want shooty vet to be more viable on Damnation, just swap out Camouflage’s passive accumulation of MF stacks to a threat reduction on said stacks, enough so that the random poxwalker will ignore the vet most of the time.
No joke, the problem with shooty vet isn’t damage, it’s that things keep conspiring to keep him from shooting.
My man, I play on vet and psyker with shotguns and revolvers. I even spam the “non” meta braced autoguns on zealot like there is no tomorrow.
If the ammo efficiency isn’t a problem, then I would start your opening statement not by referring to the Survivilst nerfs, but defining what “fun” shooter is. Your expectation for the vet gameplay to be 20 to 80 ratio is a curious one at best, especially there is plenty of weapons on vet you can still pull it off. All you have to do is actually open those loot containers.
I guess I want something that actively boost ranged play without super high costs. Without going into any specific weapon stuff I want something like:
Apart from the last one I don’t really take a preference, do what turns out not op, but I really want a class that is a ranged specialist where it feels I’m the king of guns.
I guess I want the same feelings for Vet gunplay on Vet as on IJ Zealot when you pop FotF the huge crit and then ridiculous 30-40% as boost and start hacking jumping from group to group, when Gunlugger pops ult and just goes ham melting the screen, when with Psyker you pop AB lighting up the screen… There is very little like that on Vet with guns, something where I can go “Yeah! Die heretics! I’m the only one that can to this sh-t!”. Vet can boost something like revolver, but I just get 90% on Zealot too. I want something amazing.
Going more into detail with my gripes and preferences so it can be picked apart:
I personally like heavy hitter, run-and-gun playstyle. Played mostly Plasma, brauto and to a lesser extant Shotgun, Bolter and Lasgun.
Pre-patch 13 my favorite gun to run was plasma with “bigger they are” so I can blast crusher with charged shots one after another or blowing up several specials trading ammo for kill speed, and while Plasma currently is very strong, I don’t get the same enjoyment as before where I was melting ogryns of allies trying to keep up Exa so I can one-shot them venting and dodging constantly. I still enjoy it with right-side smoke build, but that’s a hybrid build leaning heavily on melee and stealth.
Bolter as a heavy hitter is also kinda iffy with ammo now on the shooter front. Before this patch you could lean more into shooting with VoC/Tag and it was serviceable, now it just runs out of ammo too quickly while still not feeling amazing going full auto ever. It does great on a melee support playstyle as an absolute boss blaster, but that’s again not the same. Interestingly blasting elites and bursting enemies is better on Zealot with Bolter, played a lot of BoF + DoD + FotF + IJ on Zealot with Bolter and getting full out actually feels it does something having like +40% damage on close range without needing to ult or anything, with BoF for specials and swap reduction with BoF canceling pull out animation. Still not what I’m looking for due to heavy ammo issues, but it actually makes the weapon worth blasting with.
For run-and-gun you get shooting time with brauto, but it’s weak and again feels much better on Zealot. For all the reload speed I don’t feel like you get anything impactful from Vet on it that would make it feel better. Including the Exa spread reduction which was the thing that made it extra back before patch 13, but this doesn’t really feel good anymore. 5m range on damage blessing also have to do a lot with it I guess.
Last for sniper playstyle, it’s just not really there anymore. No shoot-outs with ranged enemies, most fights are in close to mid range with floods of enemies so there isn’t any need for picking of enemies one by one, and when there is, you can just pick up revolver so why bother going for something like a lasgun outside of some RP, the game spawns a disabler on you anyway if you spend more than 3 seconds in ads.
tHiS ISn’T cOd
yeah then why the f would i play this game over vermintide 2 that’s got better melee and better end game difficulty? Or you want us to grind the same fking modifier on the same maps for another six months before any substantial updates happen?
They finally made a 40k tide game and said fyou to range in a world with plenty range weaponry.
There is an upgrade to make supply packs fullt refill support weapons, but it’s bugged right now.
my point exactly, ammo pickups were making up for the 90% of the usage, survivalist was stupidly overrated
should a class have an extra tool to gain infinite ammo in the endgame scenarios?
Yes, no harm in that, i fail to comprehend where is the part other players suffers from this ‘‘broken’’ skill, other than the vets itself who had to slap it in all his builds
so broken that nobody cares if it got removed (when in game)
this being said its not a problem anymore, Fatshark heard you, the aura got removed, and we vets are free of that yoke
now its all about competition, its not like anyone is suffering but the guys who stays behind so, perfect game i guess
Grenade pistol isn’t support weapon though, also supply pack doesn’t fully refill stim and grenade either so there’s still chance people will act toxic and grab all the supply pack they could(especially if they’re using engineer or medic kit).
Good thing most Helldiver have common sense and doesn’t act selfishly.
The thing is that “headshot lasgun marksman” isn’t everyone’s cup of tea. Just like the last time the whole ammo economy thing blew up, it’s not that vet doesn’t have any strong options for ranged play, but that the styles that a lot of people enjoy have been nerfed to the edge of viability.
If I can be frank, lasguns are really boring weapons to use and ‘headshot specialist’ is an exhausting style of gameplay.
i agree but it makes sense that the vet sharpshooter is the headshot guy
Oh for sure. As I’ve said in the past, I just think that “lasgun marksman” was a really terrible fantasy for them to try and create. Apparently, few people actually want that.
It’s obvious that a TON of people want a “gun guy”, not a “headshot guy”. Like, why are there even so many different styles of gun if you can only really make a proper build for one of them?
It’s like dangling a bunch of different kinds of candy in front of a kid’s face, and when they taste them, they find that all but one are turd flavoured.
Ding.
I would love for headhunter autos to be a choice. But they lack the damage and sustainability of las in pretty much every time I’ve tried them. And trying to play ranged basically forces you to take Kantrael, not just because of the sights, but because of the CONSTANT GOD-DANGED MODEL BUG.
I’ve yet to play vet since the update, but how can Vets struggle with ammo, when I can run around an entire auric maelstrom run as gunspyker literally pissing bullets and only taking every other ammo pack without issues?
Is this entire argument coming from the ‘idunwannamelee’ crowd again?
Or move Iron Will where that +10% toughness damage reduction is, so there could be a partial split of power between the three paths instead of there being 2 good nodes on the left path maybe.
Middle path hardly needs it with the borderline ez mode interaction it has with gold toughness in general.
Which styles would that be? I couild certinely agree with argument that playing with something like Exec stance makes you far more vulnerable than VoC or even stealth builds, but I wouldn’t say vet build variety has been that affected by the Survivalist nerf. Still a healthy space to run shotguns, revolvers, AGs and plasma. 
Also the game isn’t set in stone, and its bound to be changed and messed around few more times before Fatshark moves on to a different project. I would expect some corrections to ammo economy on certain weapons again. Shotguns and the new revolver come to mind for sure.
Vermintide 2 has had some minor balancing changes to weapons and stuff even this year afaik.
Is it really that bad? I’m genuinely curious, since vet is the class I play the least by far, mostly because I find the whole “guy with a gun” concept to be flat out boring. You probably know the class far better than I do, and I typically find your posts on vet to be high quality, so… is it really that bad?
I ask because what you describe doesn’t seem to match up with my own experience on auric. Even when I do play something gun-focused, like gun psyker or gunlugger ogryn, I almost have to deliberately start wasting ammo to run out. And when I do, it’s only for short stints before the next big ammo pack comes along. Then again, I always make a point out of looting (finding the ammo crates can make a big difference), and I can see why people who don’t run into trouble. In fact, I’d say the most common cause of people running out of ammo on auric is failure to loot.
When the crafting update comes along and I can (hopefully) make some decent weapons for my vet, I’ll be sure to take her out for a spin again. Like I said, it’s not a class I play all that much, so I’m open to the idea that I might have a bad take here, but if you were to ask me for my off-the-cuff impression, I’d say that asking “can we have a shooter class?” feels like overstating the case a bit.
For the record, I’ll agree that the survivalist nerf is a hamfisted one to be sure. I also agree that the game would be better off without survivalist, and that veterans should receive an individual ammo boost to compensate if necessary. I don’t hope that what we see now is the final form of vet ammo economy, but I’ll definitely defend the nerf as being better than what we had before - if for no other reason than that survivalist isn’t spitting out crates upon crates of ammo per run.
I’d like to know why auric in general has become way harder. It feels like enemies have more hp than before. Lost all but 1 match tonight. Usually it’s the other way around. Was insanely infuriating and didn’t feel fun like usual.
Why does ogryn have such underpowered melee weapons? If someone says "bEcAuSe oGrYn iS OP " - just shut up. Ogryn with pretty peak specs takes at least 3 swings of a krouk to kill a pox walker and anywhere between 5-10 to kill specialist. Trying to kill a crusher etc just makes me feel like a steel drum busker as I have to sit there for 2 minutes hitting armour constantly. A single pox walker could probably down me within 10 hits if left to it. It’s pathetic.
Zealots are way more powerful and that just shouldn’t be the case.
Also - I will write on every post of mine - I HATE THE LIGHTS OUT MISSIONS SO DAMN MUCH!!! Genuinely boils my blood. Every enemy apparently wears night vision goggles. Not being able to see anythign is NOT FUN. give everyone a torch if they must be played
Basically anything that isn’t primarily a headshot style. I should specify that I’m talking about using a gun as a primary weapon, i.e, 80+% of the time.
Ultimately this whole issue comes down to the question of the ratio of melee/ranged that a given person will accept. For any given person, it’s either fun or it isn’t.
Oh for sure. I’d be surprised if they didn’t look at these particular changes, given how hamfisted they are.
It’s a bit ranty, but I’m kinda tired to make changes so sorry for that.
I try to elaborate a bit more, also I played more and I think I identified a few pain points that came with this change (and when it’s not a big deal).
The Ammo
The Survivalist change hit a bunch of middling weapons and tossed them into ammo hell while also hitting revolver to some extent. Plasma is still good and while going low ammo on it can be irritating (have to reload more), it is also way more taxing to use charged shots even on an Exa build, because there is 0 payoff to speak about and it just eats your ammo.
Ammo wise the worst I’ve seen was shotgun (which hits like wet fart) which will non-stop run low or out, and Bolter which is down again as “unusable” if you want to play with it as a gun (it’s still works as a boss buster on a melee build). Haven’t tried revolver myself, but any Zealot or Vet I’ve seen with it was constantly hovering around 10-15 bullets left the whole match (it’s still op tho).
Have to add here that I also always take liberal use of bleed nades against shooters and elite blobs, and it isn’t helping much.
Non of this is really relevant on a more melee focused build which will probably do fine ammo wise, or any of the las weapons (except laspistol I guess?) which can take advantage of Shock Trooper.
Now after a bit more experience I think the main issue here is that again you are basically at the team composition’s and the team’s mercy in many situations with ammo, which shouldn’t this much be the case on a ranged class.
In VT2 for example ranged classes are more-or-less self-sustaining and that should be kind of the case here.
I completely agree with this, ammo being tide to one aura in this way wasn’t good at all, not even for Vet. That said just nerfing it by something like 70-80% with basically 0 recompense to Veteran players was baffling.
Shooter Focused Playstyle
This is kind of my main problem and this ammo change basically triggered me. Ranged focus play on Veteran is just sh-t.
Things like Exa stance just doesn’t fit the game anymore. It was fun before patch 13 when it gave all of your damage potential and you usually felt the constant stress of keeping it up and popping enemies with every shot, but now the whole refresh mechanic is meh, with a proper build it just gives you close to nothing. It’s bad not because VoC is good, but because it’s just sh-t.
Only cool Ranged play left on Vet is lining up the perfect shot with plasma/revolver and blowing up like 8 shotgunners before the Melee guys pick them apart in 2 seconds, no wonder that’s the only two weapons I see used in ranged focused play… That and you can RP with Helbore cos it gets the melee boost from right side and it’s kinda hilarious to just oneshot poxies with the super fast stabs.
That said Vet is still good for Hybrid play and VoC can absolutely carry, but I think the only reason I keep playing it is because I love my Plasma, my PS and my smoke nade build is kinda unique thing even tho I hate WS with a passion (it’s everything I wanted from a melee Keystone with a twist that just ruins everything).
I guess what’s really missing is some wow factor. Something like: