Suggestion for potions

Warhammer: Vermintide 2 Gameplay Feedback
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  • In addition to the normal temporary effect, drinking a potion confers a permanent 5% boost to the related stat for the remainder of the map. The passive boost does not stack with the temporary effect and caps at 10-30% depending on difficulty.

In quickplay I see many players who A) fully ignore potions, or B) grab them but never use them.

Part of the problem is there’s no obvious source of information that educates players on what exactly they do. For example, googling “vermintide 2 potions” reveals that the armor-piercing effect isn’t mentioned in any wiki despite it being the strength pot’s most important function. If players don’t know what potions do, and aren’t inclined to experiment, then chances are they’ll simply get in the habit of ignoring them.

To be clear, there should be an in-game resource (Lohner’s Compendium or something similar) that explains every game mechanic, but that’s not what this post is about.

There’s also an issue of players either feeling like they need to save potions for an emergency and then forgetting they have them or feeling too overwhelmed during the emergency to use them.

Why I think this would be a good change…

  • It would make potions an appealing longterm commodity rather than a brief burst which may or may not end up being useful.

  • Building passive buffs gives players mini-quests with concrete rewards to pursue during each map. Players being rewarded for smart play feels good.

  • It might make players more comfortable to try something other than Switft Slaying for their melee trait.

  • It would make the 2.0 changes to Ranger Vet talents (and the Ranger Vet class itself) more palatable insofar as most players currently find random potion drops to be basically worthless compared to grenades.

  • It would make the Home Brewer trait (25% chance to not consume potion on use) more appealing.

  • It would encourage a bit more planning and participation on the part of players who want to build their team in a specific way during the map.

  • It would help solo players survive a bit easier when their bots decide to do something suicidally stupid.

Ways in which this suggestion could be tweaked or balanced…

  • no cap on lower difficulties, which might make lower difficulty a bit more fun and crazy

  • 2-minute debuff after drinking a potion that prevents gaining a new passive

  • dying eliminates the passive

  • limiting passives to one stat or limit is based on difficulty, i.e. Recruit = 3 stats, Vet = 2 stats, Champ or above = 1 stat, etc

New game mechanics that could alter the effect…

  • a trait that gives the passive with every member of the party, but only gives 2% (would arguably be incompatible with aforementioned passive limit unless shared passives could ignore caps)

  • a trait that raises the passive cap by 15% but disables the temporary effect (poor value on lower difficulties, but possible high value for dps players on highest difficulties, also very risk vs reward if potions don’t spawn)

  • a trait that increases single buff to 10% but renders potions unusable for remainder of map (appealing for grim carriers)

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Potions are amazingly powerfull its ppl that dont know how to use them same as nades

And thats sounds like some dumb mmo mechanics not warhammer where drinking those potions are gamble

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Thanks for the thoughtful analysis. I can tell you put a lot of effort into it.

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Adding a flat 5+% stat increase throughout the whole map to incentivise picking up potions sounds a bit lazy, if I might be so blunt. It’ll just lead players to pick up potions and use them instantly. People will fight over potions and complain about not getting the now “mandatory” stat boost.

If you want stat increase, you could do that in the keep. Before every map, let everyone roll a dice. Those who get [positive number] get a random boon named after a god, like Shallya, Ranald, Isha, Kurnous, Sigmar, Morr and Khaine. The boons should reflect the name of the gods they represent, like bonus ranged damage from Boon of Kurnous. The boons are all individual per player.
To make it more interesting, there could also be a risk to it; if you roll a [negative number], you get cursed by one of the less benevolent gods, which gives you a debuff but also a combat-related buff that mixes up how you play your class.

As for potions, I’d rather there be more potions. I have a number of potions in mind.

  1. Potion of Might:
    Combines Potion of Strength, Speed and Concentration. Lasts 5 seconds. Super rare item.

  2. Potion of Regeneration:
    Regenerates 2 hp every 1 second for 10 seconds. If bleeding, closes wounds instead.

  3. Potion of Stone Skin:
    Reduces damage taken by 33% for 10 seconds. Has a 5% chance to completely resist blows. Enemies that are resisted are bounced back, as if their attack was parried.

  4. Potion of Aqshy’s Flame:
    The imbiber is set aflame and deals fire damage to all enemies around them. They receive no damage from the flames themselves. Lasts 10 seconds.

  5. Potion of Cold:
    The imbiber becomes ice cold for 10 seconds. All nearby enemies are slowed and have their mass reduced by 33%.

  6. Potion of Vampiric Health:
    For 10 seconds, the imbiber steals life from damaging or killing enemies. Recovers HP, not THP.

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Ehhhh yeah, calling me lazy and then counter-suggesting adding more RNG to the game is ridiculously hypocritical, if I might also be so blunt. Neither the concept of more RNG nor of more time spent in the keep is appealing to me, and people would just look for ways to game a system like that anyways.

Give players an option for random buffs, and you give them a reason to be helplessly angry when they repeatedly don’t get what they want, for example as with the crafting system or Ranald. I’d prefer people be encouraged to explore, interact and strategize rather than just sprint from point A to point B, which is currently how a lot of quickplay games feel.

I do agree there should be more potions, though not half a dozen which would dilute the pool too much. Several of your potion suggestions are also already addressed in the game by existing mechanics. I specifically think a defense potion should be added to the game, which would contribute to the concept of shaping the team while you play.

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I often find myself never using a potion during the map because my group didn’t fight a proper boss or a patrol during the whole run. I’m always saving it for that “one bad moment” that rarely happens. You never really know when that bad moment is going to happen either so you may decide one bad moment isn’t quite bad enough then you find out the rest of the map is a relative peaceful cruise.

Like, using one just because there is a wave of armor and berserkers coming your way can feel like a bit of a waste. Because you know there will 10 more similar waves throughout the entire map. So you think to yourself “Do I really need to use this extremely short 10 second boost of power right now?”. Potions end up becoming boss-only items that can be only slightly effective or really powerful depending on the boss who you’re fighting. And that’s boring.

It would be nice if potions were more common on higher difficulties. You only get 10 seconds to fully use the effects and that makes it pretty challenging deciding when to use something you may only find once for yourself on Cataclysm.
You mention Bardin’s potion drop talent and I kinda find it useless as well on every map except Fortunes of War. Because you’re rushing through every other map and never seeing those other potions again. Then it ends up being useless with his drop-rate being so low, and you’re STILL trying to save the potion you got for that one “bad” moment.

I think it would be better if potions after their main effect leave some lingering dregs in your veins. Such as a strength potion would give you 5% attack power for a minute. Speed potion gives 5% attack speed for a minute. Concentration gives a 10% cooldown reduction for 2 minutes.

I also like @ArkBlanc’s ideas for new potions but the 5 second use times would be an absolute joke in the grand scheme of an entire match. It doesn’t solve the problem of hoarding a potion for the the whole match either so their spawn rates would have to go way up as well.

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I do the exact same thing of saving it for the perfect moment and sometimes not using it, though I’ve tried to cultivate a state of mind whereby the very mundane act of using a pot (or using ultimates for that matter) is something that carries less weight.

I’m reminded of playing old SNES Final Fantasy games and hoarding megalixirs to wait for the perfect moment to use them and then beating the game having used maaaaybe a couple on the literal last fight of the game or more likely none at all. Like my sense of the value of a rare item exceeded my sense of self-preservation.

Many systems and features in the game have great potential to be so much more interesting and fun. Ultimately I see potions in VT2 as a bare bones mechanic that could actually be the basis for more dynamic gameplay if given some attention. Certainly I think the game would be better served overall if they focused on refining the strong foundation of what’s in the game already rather than making new modes that nobody really wants.

This is what I want, to actually discuss how something like this would work. As to your suggestion, I think just 5% is too small to even really be noticeable, meaning people still wouldn’t really care if they had it or not. Having a buff that you not only can tell that it’s there, but had to personally do something to earn, either by looking around for the components or having a friendly teammate give to you, is rewarding.

2.0 Bounty Hunter has a talent, which I’m sure you’re aware of, that allows him to build up a passive damage resist by killing specials. To me, this is an amazingly good talent because…

  • it presents the player with a goal that is reliably attainable and which can be acquired faster if they actively pursue it
  • has a reward that is genuinely helpful to the player
  • it focuses the player on killing problematic enemies, which benefits the whole group
  • it rewards the player for playing well
  • it has an appropriate fail state when the buff resets on death

I generally don’t like when talents passively buff a stat, particularly when it’s for something like 5% crit where you can’t really get a sense anything is changed. Intellectually you know having 5% more crit is useful, but mechanically nothing feels particularly different when you’re playing the game.

I like when players are given a cookie for doing a good job, and I like it even more when they can amass a pile of increasingly good cookies for continuously doing a good job. Picking up and using potions is doing a good job.

Potions don’t magically appear in our inventories. We walk to places where they might be and search for them. We might risk straying from the group because we see a potion off in the distance. When you give a teammate a potion, you’re making a decision to relinquish power so that someone else can enhance theirs. That kind of gesture is in service of the greater good of the team, and it’s meaningful.

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Welcome to the curse of pug games, where you cannot objectively measure the skill of the player joining, thus you have to save up stuff when you need it to save someone’s ass.

In premade you use bombs and potions to neutralize a threat when additional threats keep piling in and you need something to take their edge off.

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The issue of a permanent map boost is that people will just drink the potion whenever they see one for the passive bonus and waste the active part.
Imo potions are fine. Its just people that dont understand when and how to use them. Only thing that could be done is make it clearer what they do.

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How is it smart play if I chuck down every potion the moment that I get it? I understand that on the paper the planning out part Looks encourageable. And maybe - just maybe - this will work out for pre-made groups. However, in public games it will not. It will lead to a rush to potions by drooling players seemingly addicted to potions now. Right there on the first row: Zealot and Slayer
It will lead to unncessary tensions in the group which right now is avoided due to a minimal overabundance and now you already have Shade and Bounty Hunter screeching for every concentration potion (Miiiiiinnnnnneee).

They shouldn’t be though. Potions like your active skill are game changer if used in the right situation. If players are unable to determine those moments or are hoarding the potions because something worse may come then it is an issue of the players, not the item. Potions fulfil the function they are designed for.

Why should it? Players will stack attack speed nonetheless because it has to many advantages. They may then complain that they should have a function to auto-attack because they can’t click fast enough. But this community is addicted to Swift Slaying and will not give it up. The only chance for Swift Slaying being chosen less is for a - very much required and necessary - change in how the trait works.

This is again a player issue. Actually, having a Ranger Vet with you dropping potions already shows an effect as people are less likely to wait for the perfect moment and are using potions in a more free manner making the run generally much easier.

The lower difficulties are already easy enough as they are and adding just more on the gap between Champion to Legend or Legend to Cataclysm does not Sound very smart as we have enough complains About the gap already.
The 2-minute debuff does not change much as people will still gulp down everything just after the 2 minutes end. It may help that people kindly spare an item during that 2 minute window. But outside of RV potions are not THAT overabundant.
Limiting the passive might help to elevate some priorly mentioned issues but it is a bandaid for a problem which shouldnt exist to begin with.

Generally said, 10 % for damage or attack speed AND movement or usage of active skill is a major buff and faaar to strong for Cataclysm. It will lead to elites (and hordes) dropping like flies by bodyshots due to the newly reached break points. It will lead to mindless click-spam as your attacks (especially on Zealot and Slayer) are so fast that the enemy has no chance to get inbetween, it will lead to Bounty Hunter and Shade spamming their active skill even more as it is already trivializing content further.

So in short: Yea, I am not in favour for such a change. It will lead to potions becoming a disruptive element in a negative way and the suggested bonus are far to high.

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People already waste it, by frequently ignoring or never using them, which is why I was making the suggestion in the first place.

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Smart play is bothering to grab the potion in the first place and ideally using it at some point. If you prefer building a small passive to having a brief overclock you might not even be able to use without getting killed, this would be another option.

Slippery slope arguments are unconvincing to me. Players are generally able to work out sharing for heals and ammo pickups, I believe they can learn to use other mechanics in team-oriented ways. Thinking people playing a co-op game would be unable to cooperate is pointlessly cynical.

The design isn’t written in stone, and I made this post because I think the design is flawed. As I stated in the original post, I believe part of the problem is player’s lack of access to detailed information about game mechanics, but that’s not the whole problem.

Oh I don’t know, what if the speed passive only affected movement? What if a melee speed passive didn’t stack with Swift Slaying, making the trait somewhat redundant? It’s possible to take an idea you don’t agree with and rework it to accommodate what you think is important. My goal here is to explore that.

My experience is that people in pubs largely ignore Ranger Vet potion drops, probably because they think it’s more bother to deal with them than not. Maybe your experience is different. I play 99.9% in quickplay. I’d imagine a premade would be more likely to take advantage of them if they’re trying to min-max their performance as a team.

It’s just a possible suggestion about how the design could work. There doesn’t have to be a debuff, or the debuff could work differently. The fact that potions aren’t very abundant is why I think this feature wouldn’t have a huge impact on the game. It’s just a small bonus that encourages people to interact more often than never with potions.

So suggest a better solution? I’m proposing that the potion mechanic is lackluster and mostly fails to engage players, apart from enabling small moments of burst dps. I think this is a problem and that the mechanic could be altered to be more engaging. I’ve offered my suggestion as a starting point for a conversation on how this might be achieved.

I could alternatively suggest removing the temporary potion effects altogether, but they’re fun, so I don’t want to. I think building a character into a more specialized role over the course of a map is fun. I think meaningfully and concretely rewarding players for putting more effort into their play is mostly something VT2 lacks.

A long time ago, I suggested a skill for Payday 2 wherein if you got a headshot, it refilled your armor a bit. This kind of positive feedback reward is something VT2 needs more of, and I think the underwhelming potion mechanic would be the best vector for introducing this kind of reward since potions are usable by all classes on every difficulty.

It doesn’t have to be multiple passives. I explicitly stated that the mechanic could be balance tweaked to only affect one stat, possibly depending on difficulty. As an example, whatever pot you drink first could lock your passive to that stat. This is not a significant problem.

I can’t speak for Fatshark’s intent, but the whole 2.0 stagger overhaul borked the concept of breakpoints far more than this ever could.

Yeah, there’s definitely no click spam in the game already. Totally. I pictured the cap for the highest difficulties being around 10%, maybe 15% at the most, and not stacking with Swift Slaying, which would not be enough to make people unkillable. It’s a nudge. It’s not useless, but it’s still a nudge, and not even a guranteed one.

Man, if you’re not able to use BH or Shade ults basically at will via pots / traits / restraint, you’re doing it wrong. An additional 10% ult regen doesn’t meaningfully affect something like Skarrik dying in under three seconds, but it also doesn’t make you able to bust out an ult with every skirmish across a map. If Fatshark want bosses / elites to be more of a threat, they probably need to cap how much damage they can take at once, but that’s not really a legitimate ult regen issue.

Have you considered that the numbers can be changed to something lower? Or that the increase wouldn’t have to be linear? I considered saying the passive would increase stats by X% so that people wouldn’t focus on the specific number, but was hoping they could simply realize that no good idea is born fully formed. Oh well.

It may not seem like it since I strongly disagree with most of your points, but I appreciate you taking the time to actually talk about things. I wish you were more interested in creating rather than deconstructing, but that’s more or less the response I’ve come to expect from these types of suggestion posts. Thanks for your time.