What it really is, is that you’re not good at debating points so you just resort to slippery-slope, strawman, and ad-hominen attacks.
If you could actually write well constructed points that supported your opinions then you wouldn’t feel the need to call out the quality of my character. However you can’t so you make silly jumps to conclusions such as me being a victim of hype yada yada.
As for being viewed as rude or whatever I really could care less. My ‘reputation’ has little to no importance in whether or not my arguments are sound.
But yeah, “bye bye Mr.” to you as well.
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the problem is at some point - and that point was already here before DLC relase we did have 1-2k IN total players online. this is the problem.
bc of that u cant find a game and u start a game with BOTS u play for 10min+ somone join(or maybe not).
that was the same problem on vt1 and most of the ppl did use “bots improvements mod”
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I don’t see any reason what so ever why bot’s need to be as stupid as they currently are. Granted they are better at some things than real players (boss kiting for example) but that doesn’t excuse that they don’t pick up ammo and waste shots on roamers but don’t shoot specials, get eaten by spawn, like to roast themselves in warpfire and ignore grims and drop tomes.
True but that’s also quite impossible. In Vermintide 1 bots headshoted everything every time and they still weren’t anywhere near of a viable choice (without mods).
Now I’m not saying bots need to be the mlgs but they shouldn’t be an obstruction and focus on their own survival and revive of others.
First this is advertised as
just as it is as coop.
Now this is something strange because one of the original ideas for deeds Fatshark had was to enable for stuff like official soloing. And about speed running well it’s true that not killing enemies will pile them up till the ai brakes but all the anti-speedrunning measures are patchwork to fix it in my opinion. I don’t think Fatshark really want’s to exclude any people form their game, they went to the extra length to include a twitch mode because they were hoping to gain a new players and a wider fanbase built on probably mostly people like j_sat.
Currently influenced by f2ps
Abut the game being dead: It’s more alive than Verminide 1 ever was which winded around 800-1200 players it’s whole life.
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“Bots shouldn’t be as good as decent human players.” - Supposedly Me Post 17 Topic 26651
I’m confused; this quote was altered to mean the opposite of what it originally meant.
Pretty sure you and I are already on the same page.
Yeah I can agree with that. I am concerned though on how quickly the Xbox community will get fed up with things. This game does seem to have gotten a few more loyal gamers, like the ones that mainly made up VT1. It’s just annoying to have to schedule to play on peak hours or with friends if you want to connect to other people. It’s mainly just up to whatever adjective you prefer to use to describe the current status of the game. I prefer dead or dying simply because I don’t think those older 70k players are gonna come back even in half capacity. In the end it’s just my silly opinion.
u’re not touching pubs, but like to play with bots at this state of the game? Since the massive drop in population, those who stuck with the game are pretty much all good or at least decent. I don’t understand this whole ‘pubs are horrible in v2’ mentality. This is a pvm game and not a pvp game. It has been out for half a year now, there are like 1% really bad or annoying players left.
There are quite a lot of comments here in this thread that smack of elitism.
“I’m too good to play with the PUG peasants who die a lot, so I should have bots that are coded to be elite player, then I can storm through the game getting double grims and triple tomes, carried by bots so I can use potions, and get loads of reds real fast.”
Ok, so I’m being facetious.
There are probably one or two things the bots could do better without making them God’s to carry people through levels. they could stop charging machine gun nests, they could stop dancing in warpfire and they could stop throwing themselves headlong into gas clouds. Allowing a Chaos Spawn to suck them off every twenty seconds is annoying too. Possibly they could revive downed players a bit more effectively, but on the whole that’s the very few areas I think they could improve without becoming some kind of AI vs AI botstomp with a player tagging along.
Players should have a choice, every individual should be able to play the game they purchased in the way they want. Something like improved bots will fundamentally change the dynamic of every single players game at every difficulty level. Altering a single part of the bots code and making it officially sanctioned will alter the game in such a big way that it could throw all of the balance discussions about talents, weapons, AI director and all other balance aspects completely out of the window.
By giving the bots the ability to pick up tomes and grims and allowing players a higher chance to get high level vaults you will be putting MORE reds into the mix and people will be getting MORE duplicates/trinkets etc. The AI’s ability to carry tomes and grims could easily affect the entire crafting/salvage/duplicate reds situation to the point it could compound any problems even further as people rake in the reds via Bot Runs.
Giving people more duplicates is something I personally think FatShark are working hard to avoid.
So, while people are clamouring for bot improvements, the bot’s code is all part of an intricate and delicate ecosystem of balance, and simply ramping up the bots abilities could easily skew the whole balance in a horrible direction.
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I would be heavily impressed if bots get so good people start to wine for nerfs because they are op.
About the Bot mods. Sooner or later a bot mod will be sanctioned. Robin has stated to those modders that the reason why they aren’t getting sanctioned is that the bots should not ignore player code like the most bot mods do to some extent.
Well I have the unfailable 100% guaranteed solution for the dupe problem then:
Don’t drop anymore reds as you can see this will remove any chance for getting a dupe genius!
BTW running with bots will probably never be a cake walk or do you think we should remove the ability to play with premades because:
By letting good players play together to pick up tomes and grims and allowing each players a higher chance to get high level vaults you will be putting MORE reds into the mix and people will be getting MORE duplicates/trinkets etc.
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I think we can both agree there are already too many reds in the mix, as there is yet another thread about red dupes popped up recently.Over HERE
Premades will always have a human reaction time, even the very best premades still need good communication and good skills to deliver repeated successful runs. Your post above states that the current bot-mods circumvent these human restrictions and it’s preventing FS from sanctioning the mods - so now the challenge for the mod makers and FS is how do you make sure the bots behave like very good human players rather than cheating-in-the-code aimbots/blockbots etc. Coding human-like behaviour is very difficult in all aspects of AI and is the holy grail of AI coders.
The risk for FS is that bots do become cake-walky through non-human-like code and people aren’t ever going to moan about a bot dragging them through.
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Making bots better, even perfect, in a game is relatively easy. So is making their actions rigid, so that they can never adapt to rapidly-changing situations. What’s hard is finding a balance when they’re useful but not too good, and to make them make human-like mistakes.
The bots are already very good special snipers, dance with Ogres without mistakes, and can be manipulated to carry tomes or use healing semi-sensibly. But they are a bit too forward in melee combat, often use healing when another needs it more, and fail immediately when a Boss comes in with anything else. I’d say they are in balance now, but it’s an annoying balance, and not even remotely human-like.
If they get better in one aspect of the game (for example, healing use or even book carry) it will easily break that balance, so something else needs to be done to compensate. I’d love to see them act in the way (and skill level) of a new-ish human player, possibly relative to the difficulty being played in, but that’s not exactly easy to do. If someone figures out how to make their combat performance seem more human and balanced, I think then their item use can be changed too.
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Every time someone complains about the bots, they manage to slip in that they don’t carry books. Stop playing by yourselves and carry if you’re such hot sh|t.
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Coding artificial intelligence is one of the hardest things I’ve heard to program. My case and point would be the fact that most bot improvements since they came out are just hardcoded fixes in areas they were known to mess up catastrophically. IE Not using the ladder in the beginning or the sewer at Convocation of Decay.
So I guess I disagree that it’s easy; otherwise good AI would be more common in games. Even if it is easy I would say the terrible AI’s in almost every game are evidence that even if it’s easy there aren’t a lot of people out there in the game development world who think so/are that good at it.
Hard disagreement here. Played a lot of hours solo and the bots are total savants; depending on what you’re running, what gear and talents you gave them, ect you can certainly make things unintentionally harder for yourself. Equipping and playing with the bots is so wonky that it’s a skill to learn in my opinion.
At the very least maybe we could agree on making the bots much better at reviving players. Reviving players is a simple skill that the bots, and some human players, lack gravely. Bardin will dodge dance over your downed body until you die 99% of the time. The reviving problem is really one of the biggest problems the bots have, aside from frustration of item management. If they fixed that it would make solo runs a lot more consistent. As of right now if you’re playing solo with bots it’s almost as if you’re doing a deed with the modifiers that going down is in instant death and takes you out of the game forever.
In my eyes that’s a major problem. Along with ‘item management’ with the bots being ‘solved’ by blasting their face with ranged weapons on Champ or Legend for 2 minutes so they pick up the right supplies.
Agree, aside from maybe the people moaning about bots being too good; I’ve seen a few people make that statement at least. Granted most of them seemed to be more casual gamers that enjoyed the lower difficulties.
In the event that they become too good I feel like if that were a problem for people then they could simply not play with the bots.
You hit the nail on the side and smashed your thumb here duder. I don’t see a lot of people saying they only play with bots because they can’t stand human players/noobs. The bots, in my opinion, will always have a lower success rate than any group of 4 randoms with a smidge of communication and teamwork.
Not everyone playing with bots is an elitist. Some people like playing alone. Also some people don’t have schedules that are great for lining up with peak hours; which is almost the only time worth playing unless you’re cool with bots/lag/long waits. In any case elitism isn’t the driving reason for decent bots.
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PSA to anyone saying “just play with other players”,
its inevitable that your gonna get games were you load in with only two human players or were someone has a bad connection and disconnects and it you may not have anyone fill in throughout the whole match,
when this happens you shouldn’t be gimped by having bots that will walk off cliffs if a rattling gunner looks at them the wrong way or bots that will stand next to you looking confused as you bleed out on the floor
oh and while i’m at it you shouldn’t be forced to leave behind a tome or grim because the bots would rather cling to the potion they ninja’d from under your nose even though your black and white
I think you misunderstood me a bit there. By “relatively easy”, I meant in comparison to a balanced and/or convincing bot AI. It’s easier to program a bot that always hits with its gun than one that sometimes misses, let alone convincingly. I do understand that coding a working AI for almost any kind of game is very hard, but a lot of that difficulty is to find ways to make the AI make mistakes, especially ones that a human could make. Another part is decision making in fluid environment. This is kind of evident on how bots behave in this game (through examples I already mentioned): If there’s only a rat ogre against them, in a clear area, the bots can dance it to death without making mistakes. A human is unlikely to do it without a single mistake, but they can recover from those mistakes better. Toss in a few clanrats and the bot’s decision making goes haywire. Same goes to ranged combat: Their reflexes and accuracy in shooting specials is magnificent, often getting off a shot and killing a special before any of the human players have even located it. But they also chase those specials far too long, getting separated from others. That isn’t a mistake most human players would make.
AI was doing pretty well tonight. I was speed running to get the 25 QPs done for the weekly. I was near the end of the map, rest of the party was only halfway through. Got grabbed by a hook rat that instant spawned in front of me. The bot teleported across the map, killed the hook rat, then teleported back to my team mates to help them with the horde lol.
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If god bots (which will probably never happen) are such a game breaker for you I wouldn’t have a problem with fully removing the bots or having this option. That would work as follows:
If there is only one player everything is reduced except roaming enemies. Hordes , bosses, and specials are 1/4-1/2 the size/health/frequency of a full party.
i think you are playing a different game… 90% of quickplay pubs are either deaf and can’t hear specials (or horde or anything), or charge mindlessly ahead without care for the rest of the party’s pace, or take massive damage from getting surrounded constantly fighting out in the open, and just shouldn’t be in legend. take your pick and mix and match of the above
QP is like a hardcore training ground, you either learn to carry or be stuck getting carried
edit: i’m too harsh, i’ve had awesome quickplay games with great players. just that by no means is it a 100% of the time thing.
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Yea, QP groups are really bad… I’m part of a discord group that won’t play unless they have people on to run with. They refuse to do QPs, every game is 2-4’s or private. For nearly everything in the game, besides Chaos spawns, the bots are normally better than players. Every now and then, I’ll get a guy in QP who is really good. But that’s rare.
Some people have no excuse for being so bad with multiple characters at lvl 30, red items and so on. But some people are just new, and when I take the time to explain things to them, they actually listen for the most part. Took a group through the new maps yesterday, showed them all the grims and tomes, then advised them on weapons and builds to use. Explained krubers halberd combos, such as the block+push attack which they didn’t know about. They were really thankful and friended me lol.
Well this is nearly every game. ^^
I think that too, but i don´t think, that “improve bots” would help in any way. They´re already strong and able to teleport to the player in dangerous situations. The best example is the one from smoker. :
The 2nd part is “how a game like V2 should work to extend the playerbase”. Yes some ppl don´t have an excuse. They probably should practice more on lower difficulties or accept that they´re not that skilled / have slow reactions and shouldn´t play legend overall.
But on the other hand, a lot of ppl just need some advice. A hero who´ll show them the way to an emperor´s vault. Yes QP can be pain, but to say “randoms are bad, gimme broken bots” is just selfish and won´t help this game / playerbase in any way.
Everyone who is able to finish legend with the current bots, should be able to finish legend with randoms. It´s not always “the others, the others”. You´ve to live in every coop-PVE/PVP game with randoms. I´m thankful that the bots aren´t that braindead like the Halo 5 ones.
The bots are fine and can do a lot of things perfectly. Any buff is unneccessary.
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ever since the new patch came out, i have been continuously surprised to see the saltz bot aim his ult pistol and track a special behind a wall. the moment it comes into line of sight… BLAM. dead special.
“WAR FUNDING!”
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Brah, kruber with the handgun, lmao. Swear he’s bloody Robin hood or something… got in a bad situation yesterday, 2 SV, first one broke my guard, had mobs behind, couldn’t dodge in time, 2nd one was about to overhead me and RIP. All I hear is BOOM, and that one is dead. I was actually stunned. He proceeded to 360 no scope all the specials and elites lol. I was actually marking the ammo bags to get him to pick them up XD
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