About bots again

[Spike_Nitros]

Welcome to the reikland
It gets worse here everyday
You learn to live like a cheater
In the cheesefest where we play

Hi. You might remember me from such topics as “Chieftain Krench could take Skarrik in a fistfight”, “Man the ramparts chains are minibosses - change my mind” and “Bot rework - Important”. I don’t usually post on these forums but when I do something really slaps my rats. This time that something is: “Not updating the bots does not make me want to play with humans, it makes me not want to play at all!”

Long story short, I’d really appreciate if you could give the bots some actual brains. I really hoped there would be no need for another post and the bots would get some love in the Chaos Wastes update. Yet here we are again in hopes that our fantastic Community Managers would notice us and deliver some suggestions to the dev team.

Here are some of the most frequent bot bruh moments I’ve captured. I had more but due to my PC getting fried by a malfunctioning water cooler some were lost. Some are from legend, others from cata.

Ah, good old stuck locations. Had no way to move far enough for the teleport to take place, as upstairs had ratlings and multiple elites waiting. TPK.

Bots chased a special across the acid pool twice and you know how the story goes. TPK.

Stopped using BH as a bot after this one, even though he’s pretty decent special sniper and boss stunner. Apparently the spinal damage caused him to get stuck in ult. No TPK, but the bot died five times before we reached the tome tower.

The boys decided it’d be cool to run after a globadier on the other side of the map while a troll with mixed elites were chasing me. TPK, obviously.

Please please please make reviving higher priority. Just killed a boss and no-one in sight barring this single flamer. Ultimately Bardin reached the flame rat after the two other bots had already been downed.

This one really boggles me. The bots abandoned me to run after a specific stormvermin over yonder.

Fun fact: a single ratling gun is enough to completely shutdown a team of bots. Wipe, thanks to a single special

Ah, Chaos Wastes. An excellent gamemode with areas completely untraversable by AI. This specific map causes suicidal tendencies not only in the bots but players as well. TPK.

Running after ratlings again. Two out of three bots have sniper weapons but no intellect to use them.

Again, no intentions of reviving. This mentality has to go. Bardinbot is especially good at standing above you whilst blocking trash attacks.

-Broken Fax Modem noises-

-Broken Fax Modem noises 2-

Huntsman Kruber approves bot fixes

It’s really not a high priority at the moment.

By now this is just a really old and really bad joke. When is it going to be? In three more years? Apologies for the salt but I guarantee that after Spacevermintide drops nothing in this game is high priority anymore.

So yeah the bots are bad Spike, whatchu gonna do bout it m8? Git gud?

I’ve said it many times now, I’m okay with the game ending if I die as a result from my own incompetence. The thing grinding my gears here are borderline suicidal companions that degrade further with every passing update. I’d appreciate that FS would recognize me and other solo players as valid customers too.

Why do you think they are so bad? IMO they do good in most situations

Yeah, you can play with them through cataclysm and be mostly fine. But am I having fun while doing it? No. I want to just dive into a good game where I can do my class shenanigans. Poke things with a sharp stick as a Handmaiden. Shooty-toot chaos warriors as Bounty Hunter. Practise ninjutsu as Ranger Veteran. Decapitate stormvermin as Meme Knight. Haha, no. I have to pick Shade or WH Captain, because those two are multitools with Bossmelt/Special Sniper and Get out of jail-card clutch ults while leaving FK/Merc, Unchained and Ironbreaker for bots. The real class selection at higher diffs is severely limited because the bots can’t keep themselves alive. Unless I do everything winning is not an option. And I am not even talking about Chaos Wastes or Weaves here, good lord!

It’s easy to make really good bots but making balanced ones is hard

Balance or not, some basic Quality of Life tweaks would be more than welcome. I think everyone is equally entitled to a good player experience no matter if they play with people or AI.

Let’s begin with the problems they have with ratlings and warpfire throwers. Bots are already really good at sticking with players, so telling them not to run after any enemy unit further than x meters while they still have ranged ammo already fixes a lot. Also instead of going afk in a corner to avoid ratling fire we can instruct them to follow players, who 9 times out of 10 have much better hiding spots.

Second, just fix the revive priority please. It’s infuriating to watch Ironbreaker stand on top of you, blocking away more than thirty seconds with 50% chance of getting more stamina every time he breaks. The difference is literally just one button to what they already do.

And if all else is off the table, innate poison/fire resistance would be nice. The bots like to dance in flames and gas so much this is almost no-brainer.

But… having them do OK in Cata means they’re undying gods in lower diffs, right?

Not neccessarily. If we can scale the toughness of enemy AI per-difficulty the same can be done for our friends as well. Even such a simple thing as making bots respond to chat wheel commands (i.e. come here, monster!, patrol!) would put greater emphasis on the situational awareness and skill of the player. Dedicated bot commands such as “Kill this, [botname]”, “Stay here for now” or “Be quiet” would open whole new doors, making the player an active commander rather than babysitter.

You can comfortably play Cata, so you’re just a whining elitist. Why should FS cater to you?

I were a noob once as well. I bought the game to play with my friends, who stopped playing two weeks after picking it up. The only reason I continued to play was because having bots as teammates was an option. So in a way, having nonhuman players actually helped raise and maintain active player count. Sometimes when my subpar connection and geography allows it I go to lower diffs to help out new players to even things out a bit. And besides, as paying customer I do think I’m allowed to express my dissatisfaction and feedback on the product.

Too long; Didn’t Read. What’s your point?

Make Bots more viable across all difficulties and gamemodes with greater emphasis on player tactical skills and less on do-all. Better teammates, AI or not, helps customer retention and satisfaction.

As usual, please discuss and share your opinions!

[Ghoth1ckov1tch]

Definitely YES! YES YES! Improving and fixing bots in the game is very important to me!

I can play with bots only. I go through every map from start to finish solo. Only this way of playing is fair and acceptable to me. I am ALWAYS very upset when, out of some bug or stupidity of AI bots, 30-40 minutes of bloody hard work is simply WASTED. Every defeat on Legend is a tragedy for me.

I was immensely upset that in the Chaos Wastes the bots, having such shortcomings, were on purpose CASTRATED - deprived of the necessary abilities of equipment for survival.

I’d appreciate that FS would recognize me and other solo players as valid customers too.

Hell yes! I’ve been waiting for this all 5 years.

[Spike_Nitros]

Chaos wastes was a huge disappointment for me as well, not because of the gamemode itself but because my teammates were so lacking. I can barely notice the increased Coin drops because I must spend all of mine to purchase all-team boons.

The least that could be done is making the bots weapon rarity upgrade simultaneously with player ones. Even better, give bots randomized boons when players purchase them and refund their coin value to a joining player.

[Ghoth1ckov1tch]

Well, the Developers explained that - increasing the host weapon power increases the bots weapon power.
But this is definitely not enough in the Chaos Wastes! Even leveling up rarity is not enough, as traits and properties are very random.

I can say the same about Boons. Getting Boons of Khaine ( Khaine’s Fury) is a misfortune in itself, I don’t know what will happen if all the bots get it too.

I must also add:

You can comfortably play Cata, so you’re just a whining elitist. Why should FS cater to you?

Despite all my time in the game, I only play on Legend and have never tried Cataclysm. And I won’t even. I should play only for fun (and reward), especially in solo, where I just have no one to impress with my “skill”.

This is what I can’t complete FoW on Legend with bots, no matter how many attempts I make, this is frustrating.

[Mike137]

Couldn’t agree more.

I ground out the 500 deed frame mostly with bots because I am not in a pre-made team. They are fine on legend once you adapt to their quirks, but they really struggle on cata because of their refusal to use ranged weapons on specials (particularly on globadiers and flame thrower rats). Simply fixing this would make them 5 times better and actually make cata with bots enjoyable.

The other behaviour that annoys the hell out of me is when you get a boss+horde spawn and they focus solely on the boss and ignore the trash mob that are stabbing them in the back. Unless the player can block the mob at a choke point or has an incendiary bomb, you can bet that one or 2 bots will get dropped because of the stupidity of the AI. A simple fix would be to have a bot focus only on the boss in these situations if the boss is aggroed on them. If the boss isn’t attacking the bot but some elite or infantry is then the bot should focus on the attacker, not the boss.

The pathing issues are annoying. Some occur so frequently that they need to be looked at: 1. bots often get stuck at the entrance to the final arena in Screaming Bell and 2. they get caught on the battering ram right before the final run on Warcamp all the time. It sucks but should be an easy fix.

It’d also be nice if bots pinged elites so that we could get the most out of the Witch Hunter passives. This behaviour was in the Bot Improvement mod, I don’t know why Fatshark didn’t incorporate it into the last round of bot updates.

[Adelion]

@Spike_Nitros

Make Bots more viable across all difficulties and gamemodes with greater emphasis on player tactical skills and less on do-all

Bugs aside which should be fixed, this will not happen. Fatshark has stated over and over again that the Bots are not meant to be better than the average player. We also have heard (but never seen actual stats) that most players are on Veteran and Champion difficulty.

As such the bots are designed in a way that you can easily play Champion difficulty with them. On Champion, leveled and geared bots actually play the game for you. Starting with Legend you need to give input yourself but you can still complete the maps. If you have bots which are significantly viable on Cataclysm then they are far superior to the average player. This is not the intended design and could negatively impact the multiplayer experience.

Right now, the solo players and their needs are recognized and adressed as most things in the game can be played solo. Only if you want to go to higher difficulties you have to jump over your shadow and go PUG.

[RedBeardedGiant]

@Adelion

Only if you want to go to higher difficulties you have to jump over your shadow and go PUG.

Or even better: join one of the discords or the steam group. The risk of meeting someone toxic is way smaller there then on qp. Also many people go for voice chat or just more cooperation via text chat.
Squirrel squad, Red moon inn or the official vermintide two discords are a good place to start.

[Drakonhammer]

@Adelion

As such the bots are designed in a way that you can easily play Champion difficulty with them. On Champion leveled and geared bots actually play the game for you. Starting with Legend you need to give input yourself but you can still complete the maps. If you have bots which are significantly viable on Cataclysm then they are far superior to the average player. This is not the intended design and could negatively impact the multiplayer experience.

I’m a Legend player (a bit rusty now since I barely played between WoM release and CW but used to be able to solo it) and I’ve started on Cata since getting the dlc in the last sale (beat a few runs), I got the impression bots are worse overall now - not just in chaos wastes - to test it I tried dropping down to Champion and merely existing alongside the bots, staying alive but mostly observing them. On Against the Grain they lost 3/4ths of their hp going from the start to the first drop down with the cart vs chaos and skaven (didn’t get beastmen that time). No boss, no patrol. IB and unchained bots included.

Granted, it was exceptionally bad even for how they are lately, but my bots with the same and similar setups used to be able to survive full book Legend runs fairly easily - as long as I kept specials and elites from bodying them. Now they seem to eat damage even from mundane enemies - Kruber on exec now seems to heavy non elite enemies even when several are around and then eat hits from the others as his swing finishes.

IB bot used to be nigh indestructible for me, even with dual hammers instead of a shield, not anymore.

From watching them try to revive each other I’ve also realised the problem is, they keep trying to revive even if their block gets broken twice in a row. Rather than try to make space or play it smart, they just go back to reviving and getting their block broken.

I tested them vs a warpfire thrower as well, using Bret shield to facetank and waltz up to it. Rather than take it out from range they rushed up beyond my shield and went from rare to burnt like a crisp very quickly.

It is comical to me but for solo-with-bots players it must be incredibly frustrating, and it means when I want to try out a new build and/or weapons I’m not so good with on Legend or Cata I can’t rely on bots to do it anymore, I need at least a PuG - or for my friends to be on. I used to prefer trying new builds out in solo so it wouldn’t tank the run for PuGs just trying to beat the maps and get rewards, now anything Legend+ with three bots becomes a true solo very quickly.

I’ll have to try giving them shields so they don’t die all the time but again, the same builds I have them using used to be sufficient for full book Legend maps, now I’m going to have to just max out their tankiness and see if they can at least not die even if they won’t be doing much otherwise.

[Ghoth1ckov1tch]

Don’t forget, a long time ago Developers promised:

• sanction useful mods.
• transfer good functions from good mods to the main game.

What we have in practice:

• new mods are not sanctioned.
• very useful mod “Bot Improvement - Combat” is completely broken. ***

***It was a really useful mod. Although I actually used only one function “Ping Elites”. It was really miraculous. It saved my live so many times.

Think about it. When a ping occurs, not only the silhouette is illuminated, but the sound can also be used to understand where the enemy is in space. This, as I said, saved from the Mauler who came up from behind.

In contrast, live players very rarely ever ping targets. There is even a guide in Steam “How and why to ping enemies.” Even this basic point of teamplay is not mastered by peoples.

[Ninaran]

@Ghoth1ckov1tch

***It was a really useful mod. Although I actually used only one function “ Ping Elite s”. It was really miraculous. It saved my live so many times.

Yeah not to mention running with a WHC Bot means that they’re increasing their own damage with it… A shame that got broken.

[Fauchames]

It’s not just the Bounty Hunter bugging like this with his ultimate, there’s the Waystalker, the Pyromancer and the Grail Knight. In any case, I tried to post on it. it didn’t attract their attention at all. I am a solo player from time to time because I love to make my configs (And I speak with 2000h of play) I really hope they will listen to you and make some updates, even if it fixes and improves can to be 1/3 of what you said would already be a miracle

[Spike_Nitros]

@Ghoth1ckov1tch

Don’t forget, a long time ago Developers promised:

• sanction useful mods.
• transfer good functions from good mods to the main game.

The problem I have with community-made patches is that unlike paid developers they’re not obligated to support their works. Don’t get me wrong, mods are really nice to have around. Devs just shouldn’t rely on modders to consistently output updates for content that should’ve been in the game in the first place. Bot improvements is just a grand example why this kind of thinking is bad.

I’d rather not have V2 be another Skyrim where the game is baseline unenjoyable without 50+ bugfix and balance mods.

[Mike137]

@Adelion

If you have bots which are significantly viable on Cataclysm then they are far superior to the average player. This is not the intended design and could negatively impact the multiplayer experience.

I think that most of the things that OP outlined are legitimate ‘bugs’ in bot behaviour.

The major problem with bots on Cata is their insistence on engaging specials in melee rather than shooting them. This is a problem on cata because of the increased special spawn rate, which is really the defining aspect of the difficulty. It should be fairly simple to make bots snipe specials at a rate that is defined by the difficulty being played, giving them a “latency” (how many seconds after a special spawns that a bot responds/aggros on the special, which could also be a function of the ‘proximity’ of the special to the bot and/or whether the special has grabbed/damaged a party member - its ‘priority’); a ‘frequency’ at which they shoot a special as opposed to melee it - they should be more likely to shoot distant specials than ones that are close and more likely to shoot ratling gunners/hook rats/flamers than other specials) plus you wouldn’t attempt long ranged shots if it exceeds the max range of your weapon and you’re more likely to fire a loaded gun than an unloaded one, making BoP and Repeater more likely to be fired than a handgun; and ‘% ammo remaining’ making it more likely to take a shot if you have a large ammo reserve; and finally a ‘hit rate’ which determines how likely they are to hit a special and where they hit, say 40% chance of a body shot, 10% chance of a head shot, and 50% chance of a miss - this could also be modified by range and special ‘type’, making distant stormers or fast moving assassins harder to hit; and, by ranged weapon used.

All these parameters could be set by the game difficulty so that on recruit bots will take a long time to respond to specials, fire ranged weapons infrequently and have poor accuracy - this would would put more of a burden on the player to respond to the few specials that spawn. On Cata bots could perform much better and carry more of the load but the burden on the player will still be significant because of the increased special spawn rate and all the other increased enemy numbers.

Right now on cata with 3 bot runs, I find that I have to kill about 60-70% of the specials to complete it and the sheer amount of ammo this requires necessitates that I only play ranged careers. If the bots were designed to scale with the difficulty then I could play some non-ranged careers, but cata would still be challenging.

[kapp]

Sometimes it gets way too obvious that bots have been lobotomized deliberately.
One of the most ridiculous bot situations i ever had was when Sienna bot screamed that “somebody should do something about the archers” in a situation where no one was in melee combat, but about 10 archers shot at the group. All 3 bots had range weapons that they refused to use against the archers, while the only player was a slayer (no throwing axe).
That bots generally don’t shoot archers is well known, but the ridiculous part is they actually register getting shot by them.

[Spike_Nitros]

I love the irony in some of the bot voicelines. It almost makes me want to forgive their stupidity.

"You think you can catch a dawi with that?"
Bardin Goreksson, mere moments before being dragged away by a packmaster

"These stairs go up"
Markus Kruber, charging off a ledge to his death

"You think you can challenge a maven of the flame?"
Sienna Fuegonasus, stunlocked by a single Warpfire Thrower with no other enemies in sight

[Ghoth1ckov1tch]

@kapp

Sometimes it gets way too obvious that bots have been lobotomized deliberately.

Exactly.

For example. I can’t believe the script that force the bots run for cover from Rattling’s fire was actually made to increase their survivability.

This script has exactly the opposite effect. As soon as Rattling starts shooting, the bots “escape” - and while fleeing, they receive blows on the back. The escape route is always very bad; if there is a ladder nearby - bots start climbing up and down.

But worst of all, when the bots are in ‘cover’, they don’t react much to anything. A MIGHTY MINOTAUR chops them to pieces, bots only stand with weapons in their hands, cry and die.

The one who invented this does not have a heart.

Definitely, if the bots would just constantly stand close to me and shoot at this rattling, someone would have hit.

[hollerbach]

@Spike_Nitros

Stopped using BH as a bot after this one, even though he’s pretty decent special sniper and boss stunner. Apparently the spinal damage caused him to get stuck in ult. No TPK, but the bot died five times before we reached the tome tower.

Related:

Warhammer Vermintide 2 - Bots ulti bug

When Kerillian (Waystalker) or Sienna (Pyromancer) charge their ulti (career skill) to kill a special enemy that is nearby but dies before they can cast their ultimate, they freeze with the ulti charging animation, without reacting to the enemies that attack them. They are only unlocked (except when wounded) when they find another target to cast the ulti (specials or monsters): [Warhammer Vermintide 2 - Bots ulti bug]

This bug happens on Waystalker, Pyromancer, and Grail Knight bots too.

@Spike_Nitros

Bots chased a special across the acid pool twice and you know how the story goes. TPK.

The boys decided it’d be cool to run after a globadier on the other side of the map while a troll with mixed elites were chasing me. TPK, obviously.

Please please please make reviving higher priority. Just killed a boss and no-one in sight barring this single flamer. Ultimately Bardin reached the flame rat after the two other bots had already been downed.

Fun fact: a single ratling gun is enough to completely shutdown a team of bots. Wipe, thanks to a single special

Running after ratlings again. Two out of three bots have sniper weapons but no intellect to use them.

Again, no intentions of reviving. This mentality has to go. Bardinbot is especially good at standing above you whilst blocking trash attacks.

Bots have always had a suicidal drive to chase after specials with melee weapons, and not using ranged weapons on them. This wasn’t addressed in Patch 4.2 (Bot Improvements patch), even if it has been an issue since the game’s release.

Bot suggestions to fix them and make them more immersive (possibly adding features)

Yep, bots not handling specials properly, chasing after specials with melee weapons, and not using ranged weapons on them have long been an issue since 2018. Related prior feedback posts: Jul. 2018 Aug. 2018 Mar. 2019 Sept. 2019 Jul. 2020 Apr. 2020

If Fatshark just removed the bots’ propensity to chase after specials with melee weapons, this will fix multiple bot issues: avoid facetanking long-ranged specials’ attacks, avoid triggering patrols, and prioritize reviving rather than chasing specials.

@Ghoth1ckov1tch

For example. I can’t believe the script that force the bots run for cover from Rattling’s fire was actually made to increase their survivability.

This script has exactly the opposite effect. As soon as Rattling starts shooting, the bots “escape” - and while fleeing, they receive blows on the back. The escape route is always very bad; if there is a ladder nearby - bots start climbing up and down.

This and most of the bugs in the original post were also bugs in Vermintide 1. Posting here a screenshot of the Vermintide 1 Bot Improvements mod’s settings:

Notice that it has settings for bots to not chase after long-ranged specials and to ignore ratling fire. Those were the workarounds for some of the V1 bot bugs (which still made it to V2 as evidenced by the posts in this thread). Unfortunately, there are no V2 mods that do the same thing.

[WhereIsBaoDur]

@Spike_Nitros

Please please please make reviving higher priority. Just killed a boss and no-one in sight barring this single flamer. Ultimately Bardin reached the flame rat after the two other bots had already been downed.

I feel you, but in this case the higest priority would have been to shoot the firerat, since he can push you away from ressing. Notice I said shoot since bots seem to be programmed to go bloody melee with them, even when they have ammo, or in case of sienna, infinite shots.

[Ghoth1ckov1tch]

@hollerbach

This and most of the bugs in the original post were also bugs in Vermintide 1 . Posting here a screenshot of the Vermintide 1 Bot Improvements mod’s settings:

This is AMAZING!

It just has to be in V2 settings, even without any mod!

[Adelion]

Something like this has been suggested before and has been ignored by the community because they don’t want to micro the bots. They want them to play the game for them.