I don’t really mind. To each their own. But it would be mildly intriguing to know why playing with other people would be “unfair” or “unacceptable”.
3 Likes
Likewise. I often play with a few bots (sometimes even solo, if I get frustrated by what the pub throws me). I generally have 1 bot so a friend could join me at any time.
But even then, I find the experience with a full party is immensely superior to the bot one.
@Ghoth1ckov1tch do you have connetion problems?
I’m posting a message here to keep this discussion up to date. That the developers realize that there are many worries with bots, worries which at the release of the game did not exist.
2 Likes
I put a message again because I just played a game. Is it becoming urgent in fact? Devs beat up bots behind our backs? Did they put the bots in a blender or what? It’s crazy, I don’t understand how the bots under 3 years could regress like that.
2 Likes
Well, the game changed a lot. It’s very different and arguably more difficult than during the first year and a half after its release. Bots didn’t really keep up with that and while I don’t know and don’t presume to know what the development priorities are, it wouldn’t surprise if bots weren’t that high on the list given that the game is primarily focused on multiplayer and still has a very active community.
It certainly feels like Chaos Wastes highlighted a lot of bot issues.
Those issues made way worse than it needs to be due to the design of a lot of chaos wastes areas; too many ledges, drops and other weird layout design.
One of the variations of the ice map with the central wooden arena resulted in two bots just standing on a drop-down ledge and refusing to move or engage with enemies at all. So they died; wasted all healing they had on the way to death, then left all other items on the ledge we couldn’t get back to while we also had to duo the map to their respawn point after wasting time trying to save them.
It also still feels like bot positioning AI is backwards.
Current behaviour:
Is the player engaged in melee? Stand behind them and do nothing!
Is the player on a ranged weapon and trying to shoot a special? Stand in front or inside of them and obscure their vision and ensure friendly fire damage is taken!
This isn’t a one-off issue, it’s every single time. When they don’t do these behaviours it’s genuinely a surprise.
Then there is their complete fluster cluck of healing usage that on average probably results in 50% of all healing items you find being functionally deleted. This ranges from:
- Wasting healing when not on a wound and often with a lot of THP.
- Choosing to heal someone that’s simply low on HP but not on a wound while someone else is on a wound.
- Wasting spare healing in the worst way; by yoinking swapped items when a player wanted to use the spare healing draught to top up so switched their pack out for it, drank the draught then the bot does the same and ninja’s the item.
- Finding a spare healing draught then using a pack on themselves and taking the draught.
They’re also just really bad at blocking obvious attacks (90% block cost reduction handmaiden bot, I’m looking right at you).
They regularly bait overhead slams from enemies on top of players, especially if a player is down and the bot was pretending to go revive them because let’s be honest most of the time bots just want you to die while they show you how bad their AI is.
I’d imagine more people would be more vocal about this, but I suspect those stuck with bots for a lot of their games just stop playing because it’s either training wheels for true solo or just pure suffering a lot of the time.
I’m already aware I’m a masochist with gaming, or I wouldn’t have kept pushing until I completed a cataclysm map solo with bots. But this isn’t so bad that I can bring myself to regularly even run legendary chaos wastes solo with bots because it’s just too frustrating while champion is just too boring.
It also makes me concerned about Darktide’s bot behaviours, but maybe we can hope that they are getting focus instead of V2 bots
EDIT:
I thought I’d try solo with bots, legendary chaos wastes, how bad could it be.
3 Pack Masters just after I got downed.
Bots made no attempt to shoot the Pack Masters as they ran up.
They made no attempt to dodge the Pack Master.
Bots made no meaningful attempt to free others already grabbed by Pack Masters (other than walking towards them slowly).
Bardin bot’s Grimril refreshed and it freed him.
Did Bardin bot kill the packmaster that he’d got freed from while it was knocked down?
No, he walked off towards the Pack Master that took Kruber (past my downed body), and was grabbed from behind a few seconds later to no ones surprise.
Chaos Wastes should be the perfect casual content because you can take regular breaks at what are effectively checkpoints and come back possibly hours later and continue on.
Bots ruin any chance of it playing out like that.
It’s not like we can find players that are happy to go AFK for an hour every zone.
6 Likes
Adding some more potatoes to the soup. First did a run as BH and got pushed off a cliff by a chaos warrior. Kruber-bot stood on me solid twenty seconds with no enemies in sight, as instructed by our friends at Fatshark. After that switched to huntsman and got the same treatment from Saltz, who pondered whether using a crossbow would be a good course of action.
6 Likes
I actually tried to give this guy some advice on how to play with bots and how to optimize their builds to they can be as good as they can on Cata, but he refused it saying I’m making it only worse by making bots look like they’re good enough in the eye of the devs…
Meanwhile they’re good enough for many people to complete Cata with a decent winrate sigh
And here some people struggle on Legend.
Truth is: bots are not perfect, but it’s not them who struggle on Legend. It’s you.
Bots can be really dumb.
But if you’re dying faster than them there’s something wrong with your playstyle probably.
So mimicking your reply:
1 Like
Many people can true solo Cata with a decent win rate, probably a very similar group of people.
How is your reply even remotely useful or constructive?
Your implied straw man that anyone complaining about the bots is worse than the bots and want them to carry them through all difficulties is hardly constructive either.
10 Likes
I think this is an overly dismissive take. My friend and I can crush legend pretty soundly with two bots but both of us struggle hard with three bots.
There are very obvious counterproductive quirks of the AI, and the existence of a workaround via intimate knowledge of those quirks does not erase the issue.
10 Likes
I don’t know, I still find the same bot builds I used to run that worked fine for full book Legend runs before FS recent bot ‘improvement’ update don’t work anymore now, they take way too much damage compared to what they used to (used non shielded weapons for reference, now I may have to switch to shields). Their melee combos got messed up I think, like exec Merc using heavies vs unarmoured enemies and then eating hits as his swing finishes.
Beyond that, some careers work much better with bots. BH is a prime example, you can deal with specials very handily which is generally what they struggle with, plus with the right weapons and ult you can additionally deal with hordes and bosses. All bases covered.
GK is a huge pain to carry bots on as you have two melee weapons and lack the mobility of e.g. Slayer or Zealot. I have to bring my A game on GK every time with bots in a way I don’t have to with other careers and/or human teammates. Bots are totally blind to hookrats. By contrast on Saltz’s careers carrying is quite comfortable as you can take out specials at range.
The most dangerous wave type on solo with bots hypertwitch isn’t a double boss or anything like that, it’s hook rats. They absolutely demolish bots. Other specials can be extremely dangerous too if the bots decide to insist on meleeing them, but hookrats are the absolute most concerning for me, you have no room to mess up any dodges whatsoever vs them (especially on GK, on other careers you can at least plink them off from range).
I used to true solo back before taking a long break (that ended with Chaos Wastes) and in general (but especially in Chaos Wastes) I find bot runs tend to very quickly devolve into quasi true solos now, the bots die so fast. It’s a meme in VT2 forums in general that PuG players are worse than bots, but that hasn’t been my experience (apart from IB bot by sheer virtue of tankiness + Gromril Curse). PuG players can at least (often) be given advice or told to avoid x (e.g. you can use voice to let them know they’re being flanked or they need to back off from a patrol or whatever they’re about to trigger).
I have met bad PuG players that don’t listen but for the most part carrying PuG players is preferable to carrying bots at this point. And sometimes PuG players carry you, which bots don’t.
I used to like using bots on unfamiliar or experimental builds so I wouldn’t kill QP matches for people doing quests, but now you have to go in knowing full well the bots might wipe 5m in if you aren’t using a build that can handle all the different threats to them.
3 Likes
This is essentially a “git gud. i can solo.” post (i.e., dismissive of the legitimate and factual feedback by OP, and unconstructive). Playstyle has nothing to do with bots suiciding over ledges, bots chasing enemies to the ends of the map, and other bugs already posted in this thread. Also, do you have a source for the cata solo with bots “decent winrate” part? Do you have access to Cata solo with bots winrate data?
Most of the community play on Legend or lower difficulties, as evidenced by multiple bot feedback threads such as this one. Even if assuming that solo with bots winrate is high in Cata (doubt it), that doesn’t mean that this is also the same for most of the community, who don’t play in Cata. The game does not cater only to a few “elites”, it is trying to appeal to the broader playerbase.
I highly doubt that bot solo winrate for both Legend and Cata Chaos Wastes is high, given that bots like to trip over ledges, chase enemies with melee weapons to the ends of the map, facetank long-ranged specials’ attacks, stand in AoE damage, trigger patrols, and prioritize chasing enemies rather than reviving. They also don’t have any boons.
6 Likes
To be fair though, the game should also cater to the co-op community and not to the single-player community. Its first and foemost a co-op game and the bots should function as a light replacement until actual players join. Only because the store page for V2 has the single-player tag doesnt mean its actually made as a single-player experience, but that single-player is possible.
This means, you as single-player should have to deal with far more threats on your own instead of relying on bots to be as efficient as a player. Thats why DezZzO’s statement has a lot of merit, because he shows that it is indeed possible to finish runs with bots on the highest difficulty, if you are skilled enough. Playing with bots solely should be somewhat the same as playing true solo.
1 Like
The reasons for all this were explained by topic starter right in the first post in great detail and very talented.
1 Like
Wow I couldn’t disagree with this statement any stronger. There is an absolutely massive gap between the skill required to play a map with 3 other people of equivalent skill and doing a true solo. If you need to be close to the skill level required to true solo just to play with bots then frankly they barely have a point existing.
I will reiterate that any MP game that can’t stand alone decently in its single player mode immediately loses all value as soon as the player count inevitably drops low enough. What a sad and unnecessary future for a game as fantastic as V2. It’s not like there isn’t even a precedent here. V1 is incredibly repayable to this day regardless of player count largely due to the bot mod it had. In fact without said mod I probably would never have become invested enough in the franchise to buy V2, let alone pre-order with some mates and put ~1000 hours into the thing. I picked up V1 pretty damn late into the piece and if the solo experience was as miserable as V2’s fat chance it would have held my interest.
I don’t understand what could possibly be lost by having more competent bots. I understand it’s not the first priority in a “multiplayer focused” game but when their quality actually deteriorates over time, and we wait literal years for basic consistency/functionality with the bots, like, at what point will you “bots are fine” crowd just get lost and leave us to our legitimate complaints?
14 Likes
Not even close to being true.
2 Likes
Strawmen at it’s finest.
Wasn’t even referring to OP at all. Even more: I agree with all the things OP said. My reply never targeted him.
Absolutely. That’s why I mentioned that bots are dumb and need polish. You missed the point.
There’s probably no such data even in the hands of Fatshark, so I’m not sure why you’re asking that.
I know a lot of people that are not even close to being bizarrely skilled, yet they still can complete Cata maps with bots at least half the time.
Never said it’s high in general. I specifically stated about my own knowledge based on different people experiences.
Never said it does.
Chaos Wastes is another different topic.
Main issue is that bots don’t have their gear and they don’t benefit from gamemodes gear/boons/etc.
I don’t think I even know people who personally completed a Citadel Cata run with Bots (while not just true soloing it).
Basically your whole reply is just a strawmen.
Point was: bots are good enough to complete Legend/Cata if you don’t struggle with difficulties yourself.
If you do struggle - don’t say things of likes “this is the reason I can’t win”. Because you can. Even with all the dumb moves bots do.
And trust me, I play with bots more than I play with people on official. I know how dumb they can be. But at the same time I know that on average they can survive for much more longer than your average QP Legend player. Bots are not the only issue with people losing the runs, they need to understand that. I’ve seen people blaming bots for different things, but not being able to complete stuff and blaming everything on bots while not even wanting to improve your bot builds is unproductive mentality.
Honestly my whole point was that currently bots are good enough to complete top difficulties if you can handle them yourself.
Personally I wouldn’t agitate for the fact that playing with bots should be as hard as true solo.
In fact: completing runs with them on Legend and Cata is currently much more easier than with your average QP player. And it can get even easier. It’s just some people are thinking it’s literally impossible to complete any type of Legend content with bots which is just wrong, while refusing any help considering the bots. People don’t want to improve themselves, they don’t want to improve the bots right here and right now, all they want is to whine that bots are garbage and that they don’t carry Legend. Which does not correlate with the reality of things. Don’t play higher difficulties and expect the game to carry you.
Personally I have a different experience. Me and my friends were just starting playing Cata when it released. We couldn’t complete a single map. Yet when I was starting to play solo, I was actually able to complete a few maps in one day. We were mostly evenly skilled at that time and were not even close to being good players. We would struggle at Legend from time to time at this period.
What helps is setting up your bot builds.
I see people using BH bots, RV bots, HM bots and other stuff.
While there are some variety of bot careers you can pick - there’s specific “meta” combination that will hardly struggle on Legend at all (outside of obvious bs like following specials across the map).
That’s true. Issue is: I never implied that anything I’ve said erases the issue.
I play with bots myself. I hate when they act stupid. I do mistakes myself and sometimes die first.
Main difference is that I work around things that can be worked around currently.
And fixing your playstyle and bot builds is what you can do RIGHT NOW.
Who knows when Fatshark are going to make bots consistent in their behavior?
I would say it’s not wise to wait for this. But if major bot improvements come - greet them with all the gratitude.
2 Likes
I think this is the point I have issue with.
QP will obviously have people that aren’t ready for the difficulty they are queueing in, either because they just expect to be carried or because they are less experienced at that difficulty but want to learn and push into it.
But, I’m not sure those players are the average, although there could be a spike of them due to an influx of new or returning (and thus rusty) with the release of Chaos Wastes.
That’s also why I’ve almost exclusively played with bots since I returned myself (other than personal reasons that often mean I need to afk mid-mission or between Chaos Wastes zones).
My results since returning is to have completed every mission on Legend solo with bots to scratch that completionist itch to finally get Dark Omen and Enchanteir’s Lair ticked off my to do list for the game. I’m now only 3 Convocations of Decay and one Skitter Gate away from having every single Legendary Helmgart skin unlocked with the majority of those being completed solo with bots. Why am I adding all this? Because I’m not disagreeing that it’s possible to comfortably do all of these things even while rusty and honestly I’m hardly a skilled player. But the experience is often miserable and extremely frustrating and doesn’t really translate into the Chaos Wastes at all.
I can somewhat consistently drag bots to the Endless Citadel on Legendary with a mixed bag of Careers, a few times I’ve made it to the second stage of the Citadel with them.
Almost every single defeat in the Citadel is bots falling off cliffs and the fluster cluck that follows as I or other bots try to pull them back up while enemies flood in or also knock you off the edge. Either directly in that moment or the cascade failure that it sets in motion (like losing half of your party purely to stupid AI). It’s not like they get knocked off. They literally just run/jump off the edge.
Last night I was duoing with a friend and on that final flight of stairs to the cairn in the first part of the citadel we had to pull the bots up from the edge at least 5 times, in less than a minute.
I don’t think you’re intentionally being dismissive (as I’ve read a lot of your other posts elsewhere), but honestly, your recent post did come across that way.
If you have any advice for the citadel with bots though, I’d genuinely appreciate it. Although maybe in another thread so as not to derail.
1 Like
I don’t really know what to say about this except that I have had the exact polar opposite experience. It’s been a while since I’ve QP’d Legend but I will say normal Legend maps with bots is indeed a chill time, but that’s mostly because it’s easy to put out enough dps on Legend and just treat your bots as a somewhat convenient distraction.
Cata I have had vastly more success with QP than bots. The difference having a single other human in a Cata run I find is night and day. And yes I have meticulously set up my bots and try very hard to play around them with their weaknesses in mind. Can’t lie though it’s a massive struggle to get them through, say, the first arena event on Righteous Stand. No matter where I position they run into the centre of the arena and get dumbly picked off before things inevitably turn into a true solo. Now if you optimise not only your bots but also whatever class you are playing, AKA play a very high DPS high clutch potential character things start to feel a bit more manageable but even then you’re not really playing like an ordinary match. It’s just a break neck race to output enough DPS that your bots don’t get put under too much pressure and basically give up (despite have BCR, barkskin, defensive weapons and 2 team thp ults to keep them alive).
I really wish I understood how we have had such polar opposite experiences but even if you can play around bots, it’s frankly not much fun to do so. Being heavily class/gear restricted in order to play around their quirks is pretty lame. I get that you acknowledge their issues too but I just don’t think you achieve anything at all here by pointing out you technically can win Cata runs with them. There’s a lot more wrong than right with them, and as far as I can tell it’s mainly still like this because FS has the pig headed idea that QP queues will disappear if they tune the bots up. As if the ping issues, host migration, and generally lacking QP features aren’t 99.9% of the factors keeping people away from QP.
At this point I don’t care if the bots end up “overpowered”, as seems to be the main concern of some. They’ve had 3 years to find the balance of “good but not too good” they always tout. They’ve failed pretty spectacularly at that so time to import the V1 bot mod features at the risk of them ending up too competent. Who cares, some solo players get to have a much better time and basically nobody is harmed. Nuanced solutions are nice but FS seems incapable of such things at this point.
8 Likes
I’ll make it clear: I’m talking about my personal experiences and experiences of people I know/play with.
I’m not stating anything that has anything to do with any kind of stats or anything. I don’t posses this information and never will.
And on my experience average player is just worse.
Though, some days I get a lot of high skilled player joining my games, people that completed all the weaves/play modded, but most of the time it’s people that struggle with higher difficulties.
That, too, scales with you.
My experience would be perfectly described as “relax for a minute - bots die, so I won’t relax because playing solo is MUCH more harder than playing with them”.
And I agree that bots don’t scale into Chaos Wastes at all. Majority of my messages were talking about adventure maps in specific.
Personally I wasn’t able to complete a single Cata Citadel run with bots (for exception of just true soloing majority of maps, that doesn’t count to me as bots being viable).
Though, this has more to do with the lack of bot polish in CW in specific, not their general problems (though they make the situation worse too).
Easily believable, though my bots just died from amount of enemies at the Legend Citadel event. They really can’t handle 5+ beastmen banners and two bosses. They never jumped from the ledges, but they were getting pushed constantly.
And I’m not, that’s true.
I struggle with bot AI as much as the other people.
As I’ve said my times in this thread: the whole point is that bots are not as bad as people make them look like. A lot of the stuff people talk about is absolutely doable with bots.
A lot of the time it’s up to the player, which is just truth. This includes playing around the time AI performs poorly.
And in no way I’m saying bots shouldn’t be improved.
I agitated for this idea myself on forums/reddit/discord for months, if not years.
It’s just that people are so mad about bots they will act hostile towards any opinion that is not exclusively saying “bots bad there’s no excuse”.
Have no clue.
All the Legend Citadel runs I’ve done were done by HM/Shade type of characters that can just kite. Get a character that is good at wiping bosses and survive. Bots are no use.
On Cata - I haven’t even made it up to the Citadel even one time. My best try so far was to get to the map prior to Citadel.
As I said, CW bots are another topic.
They wouldn’t be as bad if they could mimic hosts boons/gear upgrades or at least keep their adventure gear.
I was asking the devs to give us more Coins when you’re playing with bots so their Coins don’t get wasted (or at least part of), but devs said you already get their share of Coins, while in truth the difference is absolutely unnoticeable. Honestly I’d prefer Chaos Wastes to be a place where when playing solo you could just spend all the Coins on yourself to create OP solo builds.
2 Likes