Edit: They don’t necessarily need better stats. It would be one way to actually show they are more elite than others. You could also solve this otherwise. However, there are two main issues with patrols:
Outside of Chaos Patrols (and even those to an extent), the other two patrols don’t pose to much of a threat
Patrols can be engaged before they notice you in comparison to most other threats in the game. That makes wiping them by a simple ressrouce dump (which are available in abundance) a very easy task.
For Skaven and Beastmen patrols I would like some threat actually. Add/replace Stormvermins by a Packmaster leading a Rat Ogre from point A to B. Add anything to Beastmen patrols. Also do something about the patrol’s vulnerability against first strikes. If you trigger a Chaos Patrol by accident during a horde they can be a threat as they should be.
Far to often I see players killing patrols just for “fun”. This shows that patrols currently do not fulfil their function of being a threat to the U5. For this reason, I would like to ask to make patrols strongers.
As their is a limit on units because it would make patrols ridiculous long and it would take to much time until they have passed, I would suggest to give them improved stats. To make it easy make it just difficulty +1. So a Champion patrol would have Legend stats while a Legend patrol would have Cataclysm stats. And Cataclysm patrols would have Cataclysm 2 stats, not sure if this only concerns damage or if they have more health too. But both would be welcome.
Yes, there are bugs with patrols but they happen in the minority of cases. They should not be a reason to not make patrols an actual threat.
FS would have to check all patrol routes if all of them are avoidable. I’m mainly thinking for places like Garden of Morr second Tome where I don’t see how a fight could be avoided.
No, patrols should not drop loot dices or similar. Patrols should have incentives to avoid them, not to engage them.
Maybe make patrol elites slightly different (another helm, another shade of grey or red) so that they can be discerned in case of more elites.
Except for Chaos patrols, Skaven and Beastmen variants are indeed lacking. Chaos pats mostly pose a threat because of CWs, 12 (?) of them aggro’ed on Cataclysm is always a sweaty fight unless you’re stacked on strength pots and/or have some armor bursting careers with you.
The worst offender by far are Beastmen patrols, especially those with that composition of like 15 archers and just 6 bestigors (not sure about exact numbers). Most of the times, I only realized afterwards that we were actually fighting a Beastman pat inside of a hord. That’s quite telling.
Skaven pats aren’t that much of a threat, either, becaue SVs are so easy to get staggered by so many sources.
I would not necessarily change the stats to adjust difficulty but rather compositions. Why not have four packmasters accompany a Skaven pat? Or monks. In fact, why not have monks/zerkers fill all the ‘trash’ slots in patrols anyway, at least on Cataclysm? Or let Skaven pats be comprised of shielded SVs only. Beastmen also should come with at least four banners just to pose some nuissance.
Edit: I would find the idea of monk/zerker patrols intriguing, just in the sake of variety.
I agree that patrols are alot of the times just killed for “fun”, i do that myself, but if a team decides to kill it they will most likely use alot of resources. all ults almost always, bombs, potions when available. Every enemy or group of enemies is easy when the entire team uses ultimates + bombs + potions, even just all ultimates is probably enough to kill a pat just for fun.
So patrols are hard enough, ofcourse they vary in difficulty as the enemy they consist of can be weavker or stronger depending (cw pat is more difficult then, for example, sv pat). The things that make it easy is the amount of resources available. example: when nobody has ultimate or only a couple players and no bombs/pots then they will most likely not aggro. When do patrols get killed for “'fun”? when the team has alot of ultimates/potions or bombs.
Another factor is also position and 'did we just get a horde? are we gonna get one soon? etc"
edit: but i wouldn’t say patrols are too easy. If you look at it they are pretty difficult, also depending where you fight them or if you aggro them accidentally.
I personally despise the idea of simply buffing the stats out. Even chaos patrol while extremely dangerous damage wise can be pretty easily kited by someone who has the right career or kill set, so simple damage increase won’t generally do.
I’d rather like to see entirely new types of enemies included in the patrols, this could range from specials up to bosses depending on difficulty.
Generally tough i don’t think the current patrols are that bad. Badly pulled they still can cause wipes in some of the weaker parties. In those cases you typically are going to need some legit buttons or utility usage to get out of it. Then again “fun” pulls usually require generous amounts of bomb/potion usage for most so i don’t really see it that problematic.
Boo, out of all the things they could do to make them better you chose the worst options and simply encourage avoidance. Already easier to do then fight them. Should at least bring more challenge or reward in killing or mire sense of achievement in avoiding.
Reward with dice
Introduction of more variety combinations in patrols to specials, bezerkers,monsters (SV shield rats w/ Globadiers/gunners/flammers)
different formations (Wide front, scouting search packs) and realistic aggroing with hordes
Patrols aren’t really much more or less dangerous than monsters, to which they are an alternative. And they can be plenty dangerous when triggered at the wrong time. Thirdly, a stat increase is the absolute laziest and lame form of increased difficulty.
Just because a few people have become “too” good at the game, doesn’t mean we should make it more difficult. I’ve been in more parties that have trouble with pats than parties that trigger them for fun as well as well, so I don’t really recognise the problem you’re trying to solve either. Turning pats in an “avoid or wipe” situation is also a bit lame if you ask me.
There is however a discrepancy between pats from different factions, I’ll give you that. Beasties are less dangerous than Skaven, who are less dangerous than Chaos. A discrepancy alone isn’t too bad, however, since the monsters, waves, and specials from different factions also have different threath levels. If this discrepancy needs to be adjusted, I’d vote for composition changes rather than stat increases.
More than buffing them, I would eliminate them completely… I have always hated their mechanics: hide in the nearest corner and fight against the whole world… while the patrol walks quietly one meter ignoring everything. It’s something that kills immersion. However they are also bugged and rgn… and considering that many players suffer from them, I don’t think an upgrade is necessary.
Stats is the simplest change, that is why it was suggested. I have no problems with adjusting their composition. But making larger patrols isn’t making sense. And adding just any unit to them is difficulty I guess as for many of them animations are missing. Lore-wise I don’t know if Plague Monks would even be able to be part of a patrol. Other than that, sure why not replace Skaven patrol by a Packmaster leading two Rat Ogres as suggested in the past:
Although that mostly centered around Packmaster themselves the different listed options would still work very well.
This is specifically about aggoring them on purpose. If anything I would be okay with giving them a mechanism where they get stronger if pulled on purpose. Would be enough already.
Already adressed. Patrols should be a threat and should be avoided, otherwise they are missing their intended function. Adding reward for beating them is among the worst one could do design-wise.
For the A.I. director monsters and patrols are replacement options. That is right. But they are operating on a fundamentally different level. Patrols can be avoided, monsters not. Even after triggering patrols certain careers can drop their aggro so that patrols just go on like normal. If you are off far enough they will lose interest. Monsters will know at all time where the players are and they will come for you as soon as invisibility stops. Monsters have barriers stopping you from outrunning them, patrols have not. Also, unless you are ledging them throwing a bomb or two at a monster does not cripple their danger level by 50 %. By all accounts, patrols are nowhere the threat that monsters are. Which is why FS could use the chance to differentiate them:
Monsters are unavoidable and a mediocre threat
Patrols are completely avoidable and are big threat
Even with stronger stats they wouldn’t be a wipe situation, just actually imposing. But as I said above, the “problem” is more people engaging them for no reason. I would be content if you remove this element already. For example making them immune against bombs before triggering and the first 15 seconds after triggering could be enough already. I don’t buy the argument with the ressource dump because magically people always have bombs with them and active skills are regenerating by themselves.
Stat-change is mainly for ease of application. Composition change is the better solution but there are limits lore-wise (probably) and also from the workload needed for new animations.
As shown in the linked topic. For Skaven having a Rat Ogre led by a Packmaster is within lore and possible. I have no idea however if Minotaurs can be used like this. Like are they tamer when no enemy is nearby? Or have Beastmen their own taming units? If possible, sure why not just a Minotaur to them. Like shown, patrols with a monster in them have been suggested before.
Lol i know it’s about aggroing on purpose. the part you quoted was just me saying that i find patrols already difficult enough, like when you fight them in a bad spot or don’t mean to aggro because you don’t have any resources. Just like a monster is more difficult when you trigger it at a bad time.
Every team i play in on quickplay uses alot of resources on patrols. i never aggro’d a patrol on purpose when we didn’t have anything ready. Also it’s sometimes better to use ultimates or potions to clear a patrol on your own terms instead of aggroing accidentally in a spot you don’t want to fight them.
I don’t know, it’s pretty strong to be able to kill an entire chaos patrol in a couple seconds with ultimates and bombs but that seems fine for me as you have to use resources to be able to do that. On monsters that also possible, but a bh with a conc can solo a boss, i’m not so sure a bh with conc can solo a cw pat, maybe i just didn’t encounter it yet.
Also i’m not sure i agree with monsters being more difficult then patrols.
If you can engage them before they notice you? Of course the patrol is then easier. And that is the point I try to make. You can’t engange monsters before they see you. The moment they spawn they are out for your blood. They are unavoidable. Patrols not which makes them to easy in this scenario.
At least on quickplay, teams are always loaded on ressources. When do people use potions or bombs outside of patrols or monsters unless they are trying hard to farm kills? Which is why the ressource dump is not an issue since you will have them, the two or three situations when you encounter the patrol.
I am mainly against the patrol’s huge vulnerability before they notice you. Two bombs and you have already wiped half of them (unless Chaos Warriors but even then you need just a potion more). In a horde situation and accidental trigger Chaos Patrol is okay. Like I said, maybe just giving them immunity towards bombs before noticing and the first 15 seconds after noticing. Would probably be enough.
Thank you for your great and intelligent contribution to the discussion board.
I mean when a monster spawns and is running to you, it’s also pretty easy to throw bombs at it or shoot it before it gets to you. This just depends about the area. Again, i’m fine with a patrol dying to 3 bombs + potion, or 2 bombs + ultimates, Those are alot of resources. You could also make bosses and patrols invulnerable to invis careers and ranged careers when they aren’t aggro’d yet, or a horde running to you and it dying before it gets close.
Sure you can. But there is at least a moment of surprise and timing because you don’t know exactly if a monster will spawn (even though monster spawns inside a map are limited). So if you have good timing and get the monster alone you can do this. For a patrol you can create the timing as they are avoidable and can be heard before engagement. The difference is action and reaction.
Absolutely not the point I want to make. Removing gameplay elements in such a way is not a good thing and should not be done as horde, monsters etc are all threats you have to react too. In comparison to a patrol going to their picnic with no worries in the world while being unexpectedly bombed by a bunch of murderous maniacs.
We could argue about roamers as these are the only other type of enemies not being directly aggroed the moment they spawn but it is still not the point as most roamers will attack you if you get close enough or a horde spawns (so they are less avoidable than a patrol).
Also, when do you encounter bosses which aren’t aggroed yet? You can drop aggro with invisibility and you are alone (or mutliple people do it). But that is a different scenario. I mean when do you ever see a boss before being aggroed?
If a team wants to spend their resources on a patrol that can be avoided, i would say let them do it. Most players will still avoid patrols and use resources to help them trough the map, it depends how comfortable a player is and how much resources they have. If someone wants to risk getting slide overheaded by a cw when fighting them without resources then all the power to them.
I didn’t say that, i said that when a boss aggro’s you (spawn noise) and it spawns far away you can also throw bombs at it. It’s also not difficult to throw bombs at it when it’s aggro’d to your team.
Yes agree. If you get a monster in a bad area it’s as difficult as getting a patrol in a bad area and aggroing it, the difference is that you have a choice, like you said and i agree with that, i just don’t see the issue with that. I don’t mind players having the choice to kill a big pack of elites, it adds a certain choice to the run. “do we wanna kill this and spend resources? or can we avoid it without wasting too much time and save all our resources for the next fight?”
The issue is that potions and bombs are barely used outside of bosses/patrols. so that’s also something that leads to teams having an easy time making that choice.
but We are going in circles so Let’s agree to disagree.
edit: I do agree that beastmen pats are underwhelming, i wouldn’t mind some extra variety to pats in general or even added in specials that spawn when you aggro one. i also do agree pats shouldn’t get incentives to kill them.
Okay, just one line to check if my english is that bad:
I read this as “You could also make bosses … invulnerable … when they aren’t aggroed yet”. Of course this is some omittence and you might refer the latter part very well only on the patrols. But it is not clear from the sentence structure for me.
CW overheads should do more damage than other elites. I don’t know by how much, but more. A few more shields would help.
As others have said, SV are simply too easily staggered-locked on mass.
Wargors are such a joke. Like a bizarre parody of a Mauler. No idea how to fix them. They seem to be balanced for Weaves (not a good thing imo) where they get spammed. Beastmen patrols could benefit from always triggering an immediate ambush when aggroed. Banners could probably have a small boost in health. A few more Bestigors would go a long way as well.
Are you sure? Maybe I’m late and they’re have been edits, but I don’t see any lies, just disagreements. Pretty sure Adelion isn’t a liar.
Adelion just missed copperback’s point, which happens, it’s not a big deal. Missunderstandings and glossing over certain things can happen alot faster then we sometimes realise.
If i could give my opinion on this question. I don’t think patrols should be pushed into avoiding at all costs, like ‘if you aggro it you wipe’ kind of scenario. I also don’t think patrols should get incentives to kill them. I think there should be a choice: do i spend resources and aggro, or do we skip? The reward for killing a patrol is that you have the area to your disposal (if it’s a circle pat), or that you can progress the map faster and get to a more favourable position before the next horde spawns, for example.