Each keystone is reworked to be more passive and less stack-y. MF is inherent headshot bonuses, the targeter is a flat damage buff for tagging, and Weapons Specialist is just straight up what’s going on with Agile Engagement + nodes for reloads.
Auras get changed - the other two are massively inferior to survivalist. I’d say both need to be reworked - give the middle one the old Demolition team (5% grenade chance on elite/specialist kill) and the right one either a Threat reduction or some kind of other stealth-centric buff.
Toughness regen for Executioner’s Stance, and replace the smoke grenades with a land mine so people have a reason to use the stealth ability for something that isn’t just running away.
Boom. You have 3 distinct builds - Ranged Headshots, Support Grenadier, and Sneaky Beaky Trap Guy - and can intermix them.
My god… the 2 others are a PAIN. Marksman, I ended crouched an entire level to get rid of this penance. The other… I am still on it.
" Kill 250 specialists or elites with critical weakspot hits while weapon specialist is active " . It sounds cool… this is really boring to do. So many times you don’t complete all the conditions. I end at completing 10 - 12 more for this penance per mission. I am at 60 after 6 missions… still miss 140, so 13-14 missions.
I pointed the changes I would like for these keystones, in this thread. To be honest, I would even love that they do something else totally different, but I am not stupid, they won’t do it…
the changes I would like
marksman: they just need to remove the walking stack removal and put something like all other classes. A refresh when you trigger again the keystone, and a bonus that disappear after several seconds without refresh (one by one or all in one time, that is a choice here). And if needed, they can nerf the bonus a little.
Specialist keystone, this so annoying to have to think to NOT switch to the other weapon… On this keystone I would say that the bonus should apply for a fixed time once you hit an enemy, and not when you switch to an other weapon. Also, the keystone should integrate one motion with a better bonus (+50%), maybe as a specialization (so under the keystone and put back vanguard where it was). Also the keystone should have less bonus but that would last longer.
Focus looks fine. I don’t like it, but it looks fine.
Both are stupids. Who wants to swap his weapons every 10 seconds??? who???
One motion is totally useless for the weapons you will use with specialist.
My problems with them is that I want to be able to move, and I don’t want to be forced to swap my weapon every 10 seconds.
Actually, you’re better to go without keystones than with keystones. To complete the penances I have to focus so much on what I have to do to use these keystones that I usually take a lot of damages.
Really, I wish they would propose us new archetype… a sort of veteran 2 with good keystones or even without. I was literally preferring the talent tree without keystones.
These keystones ruined so much fun…
And as you pointed, and something I entirely agree, these keystones don’t look natural. You have to think all the time of how they work to get their bonus.
When I tried specialist, it was all the time that I was forgetting to kill something with my ranged to get the bonus for the melee. When in a horde,. it is not evident to do that every 10 seconds. And more than that, this is boring and a total non sense.
For the penance, it is even worst… as you have to place a weakspot hits and it has to be a critic and on a specialist/elite…
I can get behind Weapon Specialist a bit. Once I was finally towards the end of that Penance (ye Gads, it was almost as much of a trial of patience as the Ogryn ones), I was getting into a rhythm of swapping every so often - primarily to add suppression with a Columnus V - but I was having to put in the effort to consciously do that.
As is often pointed out, most other keystones are supplemental to what you’re already doing, and the Veteran ones really do make a stink on that. I hope that they will rework them to be like the others are, where they provide an additional benefit rather than forcing you to play in a way that doesn’t feel fluid for the core game design.
It is not that VoC is a problem per se, nor that I would argue against Executioner’s Stance and Infiltrate potentially needing boosting. However, they’re not my stomping ground but VoC very much is. It is plausible that VoC might need a change to it to tone it down slightly without putting into question its viability. Hence, changing it from knock-down to suppression and/or increasing its cooldown. But I’m not very good at these forms of mechanical decisions, so take my thoughts with a bag full of salt.
Strongly disagree, frags are much better overall which forces a left path shift after taking the top mid “required” nodes. That’s why the build I had suggested to you for your “Quntessential” too Shredder Frags and Survivalist since you where there already.
So getting all toughness back, increasing movement speed, suppressing enemies around you when leaving stealth all the while making enemies ignore you for eight seconds, and also getting toughness damage reduction, damage boost and another charge as talent modifiers, and I guess you could use the reduced threat modifier as a way for gain a few moments of peace while running more gun/sniper oriented builds aswell, and you guys feel it needs more because it does not add up against Voice of Command?
The keystone is amazing, but the modifiers on it tend to not be worth the investment, not because they’re technically that bad.. but there are better talents elsewhere. And the talent nodes leading up to the keystone are good aswell.
This. Pretty much every veteran that I see are equipped with both a melee and a ranged weapon that can reliably deal with crushers, yet they always seem to use Krak grenades… and a quick shout-out to smoke grenades, shutting down ranged units is always good. If the ranged enemy changes would’ve stuck around we might have seen a shift in the preferred blitz loadout for Veteran.
I would never in a million years tell someone to put infested on a chain sword or to take sniper/gunner resistance on a vet curio. Vets have VoC they dont need gunner resistance and you have iron will and confirmed kill which is insane. Engaging gunners with voice of command means you dont need gunner resistance on curios. Vet needs gunner resistance curios the least i mean thats totally redundant to the class. Also on my chain sword I run unyielding for extra boss dps and flak damage for obvious reasons. Infested just seems like a waste to me and you dont need maniac damage because if your shredder is high enough you one shot muties anyway. Also sprint efficiency on curios is not a waste and definitely not compared to gunner resistance. I run sprint efficiency, combat regen, and stamina regen. Also telling a vet to run sniper resist and bomber resist on curios as opposed to stamina regen is actually hilarious considering vet has horrible stamina regen. Some of Your suggestions for vet are quite insane if I must say so myself. Please for the love of god do not run gunner resistance on the class with gold toughness that can cleave through 5 enemies at once and get back 50% of your toughness instantly. There are far more useful things you can put on a vet curio than bomber, sniper, or gunner resistance. If you see a sniper laser you just pop voice of command, why on earth would you waste a curio slot with sniper resistance when you have gold toughness like every 20 seconds on vet?
The simple answer is I don’t know. Which is is also why I said potentially. As I say further up that:
“they’re [Infiltrate & Executioner’s Stance] not my stomping ground”
I do not have recent experience with them to know whether they are strong or not at the moment. I do not have the experience of them in Auric to know if they are strong or not in that environment. I do have a ton of experience of Voice of Command and I do know that it is rather on the strong side, including in Auric. That is why I specifically mentioned it and gave my opinion on it, not on Infiltrate and not on Executioner’s Stance. I did the Penances for both, and tossed them away afterwards to be played around with at lower difficulties or on my cycle of 5th character slot levelling. The keystones are, for me, much the same, not something I take into Auric because there are other things I would rather invest in.
There are reasons why things become the meta, and I know that at least for a while VoC Vets run with Weapon Specialist were one of them, equipped with either Plasma or Revolver (and possibly still are). As you say, the modifiers are less than stellar for it, and even when I was doing the Penance I know I was shoving points elsewhere for it because they did not seem worth investing in.
Do you think that the game needs more abilities on this level? would this be good for the game? Since that is what I see when people ask for buffs, to make all abilities as good as Voice of Command.
It’s also on a 1 minute cooldown which is a lot (even considering the 2 charges), and it’s usually your lifeline, so you won’t be spamming it like every other combat ability in game.
Problem with it is that if you want to play ranged it’s just not an option being way too far from ammo aura, and requiring many point investment. Also lead-up nodes are both meh.
It’s main upsides is that you can basically “solo” events with low-profile, it’s a lifeline and you can do some mad clutch with it.
Over a certain skill level it’s easier to carry with it on a melee build compared to VoC.
Based on context we are better off comparing Exa Stance and Inflitrate to other class abilities in game instead of comparing it to VoC.
It’s easy to mark VoC as strong due to how many Vets run it, but the problem might be that other stuff isn’t really on par/balanced.
You know, I wonder if maybe the classic lasguns should have a period they ‘stay on.’ So instead of a single shot they fire a beam with a short duration.
And with a hellgun that duration is just really long.
I may be late to the party. But as a Vet main…
In Short “You perform well, when you play how the game wants you, High Burst Damage Range with Melee Focused”.
it suffers from:
Bugs
PS not always charging. (From 25/Sep)
Double Nade Node is very random in accuracy and even worse with Krak. (From October 2023) (They tried to fix it twice but no real outcome and left it there)
Confirmed Kill does not always work (From June/25)
Ironwill breaks when over toughness breaks. (From June/25)
Weird Skill Tree
Many important nodes are deep into the skill tree, behind multiple nonwanted nodes, and called it “options” while in reality I need to keep choosing random stuff to reach what I need.
Scavenger nerfed twice , first by October 23 Patch, and then Mid 2024 Nerf, the nerf did hurt Autoguns, Lasguns much worse than burst guns. (Narrowing the meta)
I Dont know where to start about keystones, from incorrect values (Damage gained by Spotting) , weird buffs, counter teamwork etc.
Stacks Preservation, or Rewarding are out of scope, or lacking. As Example, no use if your team did Target the Focused Target and nailed it quickly, you dont gain back your spots or get rewarded for killing the most troublesome target, in reality just keep spamming randomly and killing the random enemy to keep your stacks of “Redirect Fire” and gain Toughness from “Target Down”
QoL
Focus Target Keystone Marks are not sticky, neither are transferable, yet spotting in game is kind of messy, it does not always spots what is on the crosshair.
Drawing your weapon to reload will always trigger Weapon Specialist Keystone, something like zealot 15 Stack momentum would be better.
If 2 players running Focus Target Keystone, you cant know the difference from who is who in the spotting, you cant both target the same target, which may lead to loss of “Redirect Fire Node”
I cant spot normally (red spotting) while marking a HvT (Yellow Spotting), example I have 8 stacks on a crusher and a trapper flanking a friend, am sorry, but am not wasting 8 stacks to tell a friend a trapper is closing on him, as you can spot only 1 target and its not sticky.
I really hope Vet gets a constant shooter build, where you get a rifle and engage, feeling the Guardsmen Feel as you said, while also as Headhunters are useless, Autoguns are okayish, Braced Autoguns Critical Hit per burst nerfed… we are left with limited options.
Some abilities lack even the option to add them. But now I’m curious on how which build you are running, I’ve always felt that the Hunter’s Resolve modifier is always a good add if running stealth.
At that point they’re pretty close to the others in terms of general power. The only one I strongly dislike is the Loyal Protector from Ogryn.
Is there any ability that you feel is close to or stronger in terms of general usefulness then VoC?
Pretty much all the things in the last patch were buffs though? Unless some of the reported bugs were indeed intended changes.
What I will insist on saying first is that in my initial post in this thread I ended it by claiming that I’m not particularly good at mechanics for games, from much experience I might add. As such:
I think it would be detrimental to playing the game if other abilities were brought up to a parity with VoC’s level of strength. I think that what VoC lacks is some form of small drawback. Push button and do what you need to do in the time you’ve just gotten. Chorus, being the closest in utility, does force you to do nothing but be a walking and pulsing dome as you show off your relic to everyone.
I don’t know precisely what the answer could be with VoC. I mean, hold the button down for 2 seconds, say, to ‘fill’ the character’s lungs to shout? Tone down what benefits it does give? Increasing the cooldown? Turn the stagger into suppression?
Hunter’s Resolve is anti-synergy with Low Profile, and that’s basically what makes the ability good.
For my build I just run glass cannon. Go down straight right WS with ammo back node (just all damage nodes), mid tree until CDR, left side +Elite and Marksman. It has some stupid breakpoint.
You can drop 3 point from the left to go stockpile and IW it’s more “playable” and you can spam smokes the whole game, it’s hilarious.
Let’s just disagree on that one. I do tend to be more melee focused so never really felt the need for reduced threat. I’ll stick with having another Iron Will for 10 seconds after exiting stealth.
Perhaps I should’ve ask what weapons you tend to use with this build aswell, since that will influence some of my decisions on talents.
What? no. Having VoC going to 35 seconds and not staggering bosses and sending crushers to the floor would be enough. Remove or reduce the cooldown increase on the revive node.
Reduced threat is for “soloing” events. It’s a carry build.
Hunter’s resolve is good, but I tend to like abilities that does something unique that nothing else can. Well nothing else enables you to just do solo interrogation with 3 dum-dums or get a canister from point A to B through a horde.
