Some thoughts on the recent balance of weapons

[wanderingsoul]

When considering the balance, consider why some weapons are rarely used?
Because they’re doing really badly.

When the game throws thousands of enemies at you at high intensity, any poorly performing weapon will only make you lose quickly.

Strengthening those Poorly performed weapons should be a higher priority than severely nerfing those commonly used weapons, and the nerf itself requires caution rather than taking too many steps.

The Power Sword is still good only when there is a right blessing, but this blessing takes hundreds of hours or pure luck to get.
And it is almost necessary for veterans, a class with low and slow stamina recovery.

The flamer’s damage is understandably weakened, but the simultaneous reduction of ammo and the reduction of damage make it a new black hole of ammo.

Some people may say why you want to make all class all-round, instead of everyone doing what they are good at.
The point is that Dark Tide is not class-specific, you can match 4 identical classes, resulting in frequent encounters where no one can do what you need.
Previewing other players’ configurations before joining the game, whether or not the game has already started, is an important feature that can effectively change this embarrassment
Until then, most players would prefer a more versatile weapon.

Regarding whether the player relies too much on certain weapons.
Looking at Steam’s statistics, how many players have achieved all the achievements?
The achievement with minimal completion is only 1.4%, and the full achievement is certainly less.
How many players have achieved two level 30 characters? Only 10.6%
Don’t always take the experience of the top small group of players as a standard.

Most players are nowhere near as much time and effort to play, and when the weapons they spend their time getting become useless, they will quickly give up due to frustration and difficulty of the game.

Yes, some people can go through the game with their bare hands, but that’s a minority, not everyone.
It’s fair to say that when you’re willing to spend time here discussing issues, you’re already in the very minority of the player base.

This game should serve all players, not just elite players.

[Riku]

@wanderingsoul

Strengthening those Poorly performed weapons should be a higher priority than severely nerfing those commonly used weapons, and the nerf itself requires caution rather than taking too many steps.

agree, but FS always had trouble hitting the mark first try, the only way to reach equilibrium is keep the discourse going.

@wanderingsoul

The Power Sword is still good only when there is a right blessing, but this blessing takes hundreds of hours or pure luck to get.
And it is almost necessary for veterans, a class with low and slow stamina recovery.

@wanderingsoul

The flamer’s damage is understandably weakened, but the simultaneous reduction of ammo and the reduction of damage make it a new black hole of ammo.

the nerfs were poorly thought through, i don’t think anyone would argue.

@wanderingsoul

Some people may say why you want to make all class all-round, instead of everyone doing what they are good at.
The point is that Dark Tide is not class-specific, you can match 4 identical classes, resulting in frequent encounters where no one can do what you need.
Previewing other players’ configurations before joining the game, whether or not the game has already started, is an important feature that can effectively change this embarrassment
Until then, most players would prefer a more versatile weapon.

the game is missing so many QOL features its effectively in early access, its fair point but, i rather look at a complete game and go from there, balancing with missing features or lacking ui in mind just means more work (and delays) later, maybe an utopian world view.

@wanderingsoul

Some people may say why you want to make all class all-round, instead of everyone doing what they are good at.
The point is that Dark Tide is not class-specific, you can match 4 identical classes, resulting in frequent encounters where no one can do what you need.

i would love a feature like DRG that forbids dublicate classes, i never understood the appeal.

@wanderingsoul

Regarding whether the player relies too much on certain weapons.
Looking at Steam’s statistics, how many players have achieved all the achievements?

whats the relation here?

@wanderingsoul

The achievement with minimal completion is only 1.4%, and the full achievement is certainly less.
How many players have achieved two level 30 characters? Only 10.6%
Don’t always take the experience of the top small group of players as a standard.

taking achievement completion into question is basically pointless anyway, the game lost 95% after what, a month or so? its impossible to deduce any meaningful info from that, 10% have 2 chars on 30 you say? that ought to be the close to the total playing population left if you ask me.

@wanderingsoul

Yes, some people can go through the game with their bare hands, but that’s a minority, not everyone.

and therefore?
shouldn’t be taken into consideration?
i don’t really subscribe to any “minority” argument but im biased.

@wanderingsoul

This game should serve all players, not just elite players.

yeah but what does that entail?
if you say everyone should be able to have fun in damnation, its no longer challenging enough for hardcore players, that’s just the reality, effectively cutting them off.
and at that point were no longer talking about “everyone”.

i personally don’t understand why its supposed to be unfair, if the hardest difficulty isn’t for everyone.
to me that seems to be the most sensical solution, have a difficulty lvl for each skill lvl to enjoy.
somehow this is about normies vs elites, or how other less tactful individuals described us as sweatlords no lifers, or basement nerds.
so why aren’t we talking about making each difficulty tier matter? instead of fighting a war over who is supposed to be on damnation?

start to bring heresy rewards in line, so damnation is barely higher with it (since it will also take longer)

1. so consistently winning in heresy is equally rewarding as = above average in winning damnation.
2. always have one vanilla version hi and low intensity per difficulty active at any given time, so players can tailor difficulty easier to their own skill lvl.
3. make heresy more akin to damnation, malice more akin to heresy, and uprising more akin to malice, in terms of enemy numbers but leave the HP untouched
   have sedition scale with averages player lvl, each 5 lvls gets a bit harder, and if everyone in the lobby is 30 it would be equivalent to the current uprising difficulty.

that would be my first iteration thinking about this dilemma.

[Goose77]

I made a topic “if nerfing in a coop game is necessary” and i still think, that its the wrong way to start with nerfing good weapons instead of bringing up the worse ones. I think its a long way to bring em up to nearly one level but p155ing off the players who love certain weapons and grinded their a55es off to get them is not the right way.
I really think that this game is no competition with other players and since there is no scoreboard, what is great i think (maybe just showing the own stats would be ok but i don´t care), the most people don´t give a s**t if another player uses a “op” weapon at the moment.

For me it should only bring fun by beeing a ultra badass soldier ,or whatever, of the enqusition with devastating weapons to completely purge the ugly heretics with my teammates in the most brutal way and thats it. it´s a freakin fantasy game.
if they are not able to balance T1 to T5 they maybe should bring some kind of “ultra-hardcore-you-will-not-survive” mode for the 1% that is complaining about strong weapons.
I know this problem from back in my Days in the gym when there were no big enough dumbells for the 3 Guys who needed them. Just put heavier ones on the rack, problem solved.

I tested a lot weapons and i think until T3 you can literally take every weapon and be successful but in T4 and especially in T5 the most can´t keep up an the “time-to-kill” is too long.
It depends so much on T4 or T5, if the random Team fits. With some People T5 feels like a walk in the Park and another T4 feels from the first minute like you don´t want to play.

[JanZamoysky]

@wanderingsoul

This game should serve all players, not just elite players.

There are FIVE difficulty levels with various conditions which can substantially speed up or slow down the gameplay. No one tells you to play on damnation if you aren’t ready or willing.

I don’t think it is unreasonable for “elite” players to ask for ONE difficulty level where the game poses a challenge for those who consider that an essential part of the fun. That leaves FOUR difficulty levels for players of to have more relaxed experience, or a power fantasy.

@wanderingsoul

The flamer’s damage is understandably weakened, but the simultaneous reduction of ammo and the reduction of damage make it a new black hole of ammo.

Preacher is a melee centric class, you don’t need to pull out flamer every time you run into some trash mobs.