Preface: yes, I’ve made a similiar thread before, it’s just that this issue annoy me so much that I can’t help but vent.
Playing mainly an Ogryn, dealing with enemy riflemen is a goddamn chore. Those little bastards are usually strewn across a large area, which makes tying them all up in melee a difficult process during which I will likely end up getting shot anyway, and a single shitty hit from their shitty little guns takes off most of my toughness, and there is usually 10/20/fecking 30 of them around. This often forces me to take cover and carefully plink them away with a ranged weapon, which is not only an un-Ogryn but straight up un-Tide kind of gameplay. I don’t do anything wrong - I don’t charge in blindly, I don’t stand in place - and yet I get punished by ceaseless enemy fire because FatShark decided that the addition of enemy riflemen is a good idea.
And I thought beastmen archers were bad…
What FatShark should do make me accept riflemen is at least few of these things: decrease their numbers, decrease damage they deal, increase distance in which they switch to melee combat.
At the very least they should make Ogryns resist range attacks much more, maybe increase base toughness a bit too. But yeah Ogryn is very weak on Heresy+ compared to other classes. Mostly due to ranged enemies being too deadly.
I think a combination of a base toughness regen for the individual + toughness regen on ranged kill might be way to balance this. Furthermore you could make the ranged health damage vary depending on how close the enemy is to you.
As it stands you get to many boring stand-offs where you are constantly out of toughness. Especially once you get separated and out of cohesion. A passive toughness regen gives you the option to seek cover and actually recover, while toghness regen on ranged kill would actually reward you for taking the risk and killing them.
I believe these changes would improve the game, but as always produce balancing variables that need careful consideration. Like how much toughness generated per kill/hit/enemy? How much toughness regen and when? How much damage drop off and for what enemy type?
Damage drop off might be too much, but the other two could with reasonalbe consideration be implemented and used to balance.
You have a shield and you can like, walk with said shield… I know that it is a revelation to most Ogryn’s that they can in fact move while blocking, but hey… At least you can get safely to those ranged mobs - more or less.
This also means that said range mobs are more likely to target you, than the Vet or Psyker whom are supposed to deal with said ranged mobs (especially Psykers on a Surge staff can wipe them on in 1 instant charge).
I know, how dare they… Actually having teamplay as the essential part of the game… in a coop horde game… Does it suck that you are pigeon-holed into just 1 melee weapon? Yep, it does, but your role was never that of Psykers, Vets and Zealots… Yours is being a meat shield and protecting your team - you know… How the Warrior Priest, Grail Guardian & Foot Knight functions…
Stop thinking that the only thing that is important is how fast you deal with elites/specials and a horde… There are so many nuances that makes a successful team and how fast one class can kill elites/specials and hordes is but a small part of the whole.
This ain’t Vermintide in which you could never get more than 1 assassin at a time, 1 hook rat, gunner and flamer… Darktide can throw any combination of specials at you at any time and you simply cannot kill them all fast enough whilst also dealing with the sheer amount of armored elites the AI Director throws at you on Heresy+
In general I don’t mind if there are situations in the game where a class needs support by a different class. Like Ogryn in a big open room with lots of ranged enemys needing other ranged classes to take those out. He would cover the rear in those moments. But I only support something like this if there were also sittuations in which a Ogryn would be highly benefitial for the team.
Overall that would make teamplay a lot more important.
Of course I understand that this is difficult with random teams. But i wouldn’t mind if the higher difficultys would make good teamplay mandatory.
In Vermintide every class could do everything so in my opinion it was not a very teamplay heavy game.
Teamplay for me starts were communication becomes neccessary and you actively start to divide task to different players.
Well then you should also eliminate the option for multiple people playing the same class ending up on the same team, cause I sure as hell ain’t intrested in playing damnation with four Ogrns or four Psykers on the team. As long as this option is available the game needs to give each class some decent option against each minion type in both ranged and melee, so that you are able to run complementary loadouts that more or less enable you to deal with each minion type in some way provided a certain amount of skill - doesn’t mean you have to be as efficient as a class specalised in that field.
I do that when I am using shield. It helps but it is not nearly a perfect solution because a), walking and blocking is slow, and b), I still can and do get shot from the sides.
Tell that to anyone playing with pugs. If you never play with pugs and have enough friends to always have a fully coherent team, well, good for you, but you are in the minority.
There are no buts. Every weapon should be viable. And to be fair, because how imperfect a solution to shooters is, they are. I’ve had good times slicing and dicing with butcher knife.
I can’t protect squat when I get shot up by unfair ranged enemies. I still try, and I often pay for it by getting shot up even more.
Again, if I have a full team of friends and we communicate with one another, yeah, fair enough. But more often than not I do not, and the same goes for what I believe to be majority of players.
“Stop thinking that the only thing that is important is how fast you deal with elites/specials and a horde… There are so many nuances that makes a successful team and how fast one class can kill elites/specials and hordes is but a small part of the whole.”
Huh? That is the entire point of the game wdym? Killing bosses?
Also I do not wanna call you names here but what difficulty did you play on in VT2? Cataclysm allows for 5 specials and up to 3 duplicates at the same time. Cata 2 and 3 even trump that.
Btw - if you are already arguing that special sniping is apparently more important in Darktide compared to VT2, how can you then justify the Ogryn being inept at dealing with specials no matter which weapon he picks. Especially since Darktide has a lot more ranged threats in general to boot.
If I’m in front chasing down range, I’m soaking up the shots in front while being in the way of my team that are probably trying to help deal with the range. Thats why I leaned towards backliner as Ogryn and charge in once I know the range is being addressed. I also don’t use shield which is probably making it way harder on myself.
To me, this seems like a positioning issue or an unfortunate situation where everyone is close combat prepped and hoping someone else will deal with it.
If both of those things are the case, you have to retreat. There is always space behind you if you approach each room with care.
You’re right though, there is a reason Ogryn is the least played on higher difficulties. Other classes can output so much more value. But this is what Darktide brought into the tides series, so its very much a Tide kind of gameplay. Ranged combat is here to stay.
I can always keep complaining about this and hope that enough other people complain that FS will eventually address the issue. Don’t want ranged combat to be removed or even severely diminished, all I want is for Ogryn to be able to deal with these situations decently well.
Have you tried his grenade launcher? The Punies go flying! Veterans love there 1 grenade per minute, but the Ogryn has 20+ grenades.
The biggest threat is the sniper, as we all probably are aware of with ogryn. And it’s a shame to try and huck a box of grenades at a sniper, so I usually just highlight the pesky sniper and get out of the way asap.
IMO, The Ogryn has a charge (get out of jail free card) and a shield. I think those 2 things make his ability to deal with range sufficient. Not great, but its his role. Maybe a new ogryn class will be range focused (?), not sure they have one.
Ok but what about people who don’t wanna play shield all the time? Your solution cannot be:
Well the class is completely inept at dealing with the main threat in the game so have every player pick the same weapon cause f viability.
I also don’t understand why being able to deal with a threat at all in a reasonable fashion suddenly makes you compete with the ranged specialist.
Imo they should increase the radius in which shooters engage in melee. Being just slightly out of melee range means some of them will shoot.
I agree it’s very annoying fighting a huge amount of them in open areas and they are spread out everywhere. Would be nice if people used suppression more often which I guess is the idea to combat this. But alas I rarely see people use it. Probably because there is lack of feedback when you do it.
I would add a new outline, like blue, for enemies that are currently suppressed… more feedback that what you do matters.
Something in general needs to be tweaked when it comes to shooters, plenty of situations where it’s just unfun, not hard… just not that fun either. Cover doesn’t seem to matter in plenty of situations, even when ducking you still take toughness damage and can’t aim. It’s a bit odd that the game can become a cover shooter…but only the enemies can utilize the cover properly.
This is the main fix they need to implement, its just horrible that they can just be out of swing reach and they will be shooting your face off, its not fun for anyone but the npc blasting you.
I dont use the shield as an Ogryn. I use the grenade launcher to stagger the enemies.
Ranged isn’t the main threat, but they are defently a threat. Ragers and Ogryns being overwhelming is more of a threat. Ranged units stay at a distance. Sure they keep firing, but they need line of sight. You just leave their LoS, until you deal with the main threat of melee in your face. You have more time to deal with ranged than you think. Melee threats run full speed into you and force you to fight. I think people are new to tides and do not understand kiting or dodging for the most part. Sure being suppressed is annoying and I hope more people speak up about it. The penalty to aim is so bad.
I think this boils down to each person playstyle and how people are approaching rooms. Ill mention it again, this is a positioning error by the Ogryn. Just because you enter a room, doesnt mean you have to stay in it. We all look before we jump, right?
This is a little confusing im not really sure what you mean.
I can agree to this, having a traitor gaurd blast you with his rifle while standing next to you, or in charging distance can be punishing.
Yes, or a symbol over there head, or an effect over their head. I can see the visual ques, they enemy becomes scared and starts to look around places to run for cover, which is great btw. The issue is teams do not capitalize on the suppression, and some players dont even recognize its happening.
I hope they look at future levels and address this. Cover is wonky.
For the huge snark you have in this post, you sure got plenty wrong.
No special duplicates in Vermintide? That isn’t even true on Legend.
Grail Knight and Foot Knight being “meat shields”? Foot Knight could use actual precision firearms and had very powerful melee damage builds. Grail Knight literally has a “delete this” button on cooldown and is only a “meat shield” if you mean he kills everything in melee range.
The only thing that matters past killing enemies is disabling enemies, and you do neither if you’re waddling around with a shield like a useless lump. The better way to do “team play” is to stagger groups of ranged enemies with the Rumbler, but that leaves you playing like a little peekaboo grenade sniper.
I don’t care to make points on how they should improve the game at this point, but pointing out silly stuff like your post is low hanging fruit.
Except, as was already told to you in your other complaint thread, they can. You tried a momentum cleaver for a map or two, got your butt kicked because you’re not used to evaluating situations without a shield, and are back and complaining again.
I do agree that enemy shooters need adjusting (For everybody’s sake). I don’t agree that ogryn are bad and struggle.
What the heck does cleaver have to do with enemy riflemen. Spoiler alert: not much. Another thing that I’ve said before is that shield does not help that much against shooters, since even with a shield you still get shot up from the sides and from behind. Dodging between spread-out shooters in order to get them all to melee fight you is still as important as when you’re using any other melee weapon.
And hey, I’ve played more with the cleaver since then and started getting better at it.
The cleaver separates the bottom half of a riflemans torso from the top half. Most riflemen consider this to be a sever setback in shooting at even the biggest of bois.