The way ranged enemies work is flawed on a conceptual and executional level: My analysis

This is going to be a long one, but I hope you’ll bare with me. After playing exclusively on Damnation with Ogryn and Psyker, I have come to the conclusion that ranged enemies in this game are probably its biggest issue, and I entertain that this issue can only be handled with serious reworks.

I think we can all agree that ranged enemies, for a major part, are not working as intended when it comes to the ranged-melee-interaction-loop. This IS a part of the issue, but as I will show, even it that did work, the ranged combat mechanics and the way they are implemented are deeply flawed on a conceptual level, not only in their execution.

Now, before I start laying out my bona fides, just for the few people out there who might want to throw this one out at me to simply “Git gud lol”, like I’ve stated, I play Damnation exclusively, and only with randoms at that, and we are getting to the point where the vast majority of people that QP for Heresy and above will have both the equipment as well as the skill to handle themselves on higher difficulty. While the game forces teamply alot more than VT2 (“clutching” is alot harder, mainly due to wonky mechanics and some questionable design choice, but that’s beside the issue), I’d go as far and say that for a reasonably well-coordinated team, Heresy is, by and large, no more difficult than Legend difficulty on VT2. I win the absolute majority of my rounds, with the game pulling its infamous antics accounting for the losses.

Part of those shenannigans are, apart from those good old 360° Mutants, Hounds or Trapper nets, the way ranged enemies behave and interact with the player, especially ranged mobs. It is not, I cannot stress this enough, a matter of “getting good”. You can get good at a bad game, you can adapt to its quirks and weirdness, and the artificial and unnatural increase in difficult that results from it. Being able to “deal with it” is not the mark of a good game.

Like I’ve stated, I think I have identified some key components as to why the ranged combat in this game is not only objectifiably bad, it is so on a very core level. These components are as follows:

I. Ranged Enemies shooting into Melee
Let’s address the biggest elephant in the room before anything else: Ranged enemies shooting you in melee range. I think we can agree at least so some extent that this aspect is, at least in some degree, not working as intended. Ranged enemies are very often outright refusing to engage you in melee combat, even though they are standing right next to you. That is an issue that still needs fixing, but even if fixed, the way ranged damage works, it would still be a very flawed design, for this very reason: Ranged enemies have perfect accuracy, a SINGLE ranged enemy can drain your toughness in seconds, and ranged damage staggers you. A single ranged enemy that pops up out of nowhere can disrupt your ability to defend yourself in melee combat while engaged with a horde, multiple hostiles or a bunch of bigger enemies, before you can do anything about it. You are stuck in a horde, doing CC and clear, and a stray grunt draws the bead on you from the other side of the map. Weapon deployment is, even for classes that are not Ogryn, atrociously slow. Using your ranged weapon while engaged in melee is also ALOT more dangerous than it is in VT2 - and that single burst that just depleted your toughness not only leaves you open for punishing melee damage from the horde you are dealing with, it leaves you defenseless because of the stagger. It disrupts your defense, your dodge, and your attack at the same time. All that from a single regular enemy. Having this capability to pose a danger of such magnitude should be reserved to special enemies, not mobs. The meme that the true boss enemy in this game is a bunch of regular ranged enemies is very much true.
Remember how hated Beastmen Archers were when WoM dropped in VT2, because you could only block their projectiles with a shield? People complained that a single stray arrow from an archer could result in their demise, because it staggered you for a moment, interrupting your melee flow and your ability to defend yourself. When the game spammed you with archers, you had to dispatch them as quickly as possible, which is someties easier said than done due to their positioning. This is still an issue today, but at least you can now block their arrows with any weapon.
So, this was also an issue in VT2. You could see pretty quickly that ranged enemies like this needed to be handed very carefully with their implementation, or you’d risk disrupting the flow of your whole combat system. Archers didn’t and still don’t blend well into the mix. Being hit and staggered for half a second is still frustrating and, quite frankly, still too harsh a punishment considering these are weak mobs, but you can deal with them.
You know why you can deal with them? Because a.) They don’t have perfect accuracy, quite the contrary, they will miss more often than they hit, and b) you can actively engage them in melee combat and force them to stop pelting you with their projectiles. Not only is their switch to melee very reliably and quick, they will opt out of any shooting animation they are currently in and switch to their melee weapon. This not only gives you an incentive to charge them to diffuse the situation, it gives you a fair chance to use the game’s mechanics to your advantage. The weapon switching is somewhat longwinded, locks them in place and leaves them open for a free hit - and they are also very weak in melee combat to begin with. That is, at least given the overall circumstances, good game design, because it gives you a very clear mechanical instruction how to solve the problem: Ranged enemy is dangerous from range, but weak in melee, so find a way to engage them in melee and the game rewards you for your initiative by making them alot easier to deal with in melee and even giving you some “free shots”. After all, that’s what they had when they engaged you, too.

Now imagine Beastmen Archers having perfect accuracy, hitting every shot they take. Imagine them shooting one arrow every two seconds, and each arrow eats, let’s say, 20% of your health. If you engage them in melee, they will still shoot one last arrow at you before switching to melee, staggering you and thus, making you incapable of capitalizing on their weapon switching. Oh, and of course the other archers standing 10 feet away would still be shooting at you. Lastly, the thing with you being able to block their arrows with only a shield is back again!
People would have been outraged if archers worked like that. Rightfully so! It disrupts the flow of the game.

Oh, I hear your say, but this game is a different setting, with much more of a focus on ranged combat. You are not supposed to charge into every group of enemies with your swords drawn, you need more of a methodical approach. Cover, flanking, all that stuff.
Maybe so, but these mechanics are, likewise, not capable of providing this gaming experience.

II. Perfect Accuracy, Cover and Hitboxes

Simply put: This game does not have a cover system. It has nothing. It has enemies that can either hit you or they can’t, which is simply determined by whether they have line of sight to your hitbox. If they do, they hit you. If they can hit you or not, you can only find out once it is too late. This results in too many situations where you can hardly see what is hitting you (or can’t see it at all), because you are ducking behind what you thought was cover, only to find out that a ranged enemy hits you through a miniscule hole in the geometry. They can also hit you through solid objecty very often, which results in almost comical situations where they start their shooting animation while you are still “in cover” and the moment you poke your head out to engage them, you get blasted in the face.
Them having perfect accuracy over ANY distance the game considers a fair engagement distance also means that they are not only much more capable than your characters are, it also means that cover often works against you. If partial cover does not reduce their accuracy but hinders your vision, you might as well not be in cover to begin with. It also doesn’t help that your hitbox is ALOT larger than what your field of view would suggest. If one inch of your body pokes out, they can hit you for full damage. Distance and how much of your body is actually visible to them is irrelevant. In open areas, this is an absolute nightmare, because you need to have impeccable map-knowledge to know (or at least guess) what cover MIGHT provide you with protection in the given situation, relative to your own position and that of your enemies.
While we are at it: there are also simply too many parts in some of the levels’ geometry where you are mechanically incapable of shooting enemies, while they still can shoot at you. A good way to test this out is with Psyker: If you can’t lock on with BB, you also cannot shoot them (most of the time, anyway). This is often the case when there is alot of vertical distance between you and your enemies. They can shoot you through scaffoldings, stairs, fences, but you cannot hit them from where you are.

III. Visibility

Speaking of not being able to hit them, one last aspect is indeed their lack of visbility in front of most backgrounds. Sometimes, it is very hard to see ranged enemies ducking behind cover (from which they can hit you with perfect accuracy, mind you), and many times, you need to wait for the red “incoming damage” indicator to even know where they are.

Overall, the ranged combat is just needlessly frustrating and clunky. I don’t really know how one can redeem it at this point, but if it stays that way, I don’t think people will stick around. It is simply very poorly designed.

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I was going to say “get good” but after reading you do bring up a fair point. I don’t think ranged fire in melee range is that much of an issue (aside from dregs, but dregs have many problems), the other two points definitely have merit. Glad someone with a good amount of skill took the time to research and type this out.

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The issue does seem to be mostly with dregs, I agree.

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I was writing something similar in a post I planned to post but I felt like I couldn’t explain or word it well enough. This is bringing up exactly my issues with ranged.

Couple this with plenty of open areas where enemies and ranged mobs can pop out from anywhere, climb up, drop down, come through doors. There’s no way a group can keep looking at 30 different spots for that ONE shooter to come through and start messing you up.

I do think it’s redeemable though.
First, remove the ranged stagger, it shouldn’t do any stagger whatsoever.
Second, lower the accuracy as you mentioned. If you are in cover, which should be easy to determine even without “go into cover” buttons and animations, their accuracy is even lower and you get suppression immunity
Third lower the damage.

I think the regular ranged mobs should be more of a “death by a thousands cuts” sort of deal. Leave the real damage to Gunners, Reapers and Shotgunners.

I think their suppression should instead cancel all your toughness regen(in addition to reduce your accuracy in the open), even from blessings and feats but not Class Ability. Maybe visualize you are under suppression by giving a blue-ish vignette.

That way you know you are now in a bad spot, you can deal with it accordingly even if busy with something else by trying to move away from there into cover. You can’t stay out there because they still do damage, so you have to move. Maybe even increase the enemies accuracy the longer they shoot at you? Just spitballing here. They still do damage so you can’t just stay there but the only thing that prevents you from moving is your current threat, not the random shooter popping up behind you through a door.

Maybe not perfect solutions, but throwing out ideas and see what comes out of it.

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Only crit Zealots with their 75% toughness DR up and the uninterruptible feat can still fight effectively in melee while a few gunners are shooting their way. And even then, a shotgunner will still rip them to shreds if they mistime a single dodge.

I would also add that Beastmen archers are made out of wet toilet paper ; any weapon without horrible damage fall-off will kill them in 1 headshot or 2 bodyshots. Even if you can’t melee them, the ranged careers in the group make short work of them, usually.

Oh yeah. Don’t you love when gunners shoot you through a gap in the ceiling you can’t even see them through ? Like on the Hourglass maps ?

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This is an astute write up. I congratulate you on dissecting the ranged issue Darktide has. In regards to this section:

This can not be overstated enough. Beastmen Archers by themselves did not have perfect accuracy - unlike the rabble in Darktide - the only moment where they were able to reliably pull their shots off is when they all grouped up. Even then as long as they weren’t in a big group, it was easy to dodge their shots. Indeed, the idea of giving an enemy perfect accuracy is anathema to a melee focused horde game. No one wants to be shot at from afar when they’re engaged in melee with a horde. This happened many times in Darktide for me. The game already has Snipers to punish you, why would you also give your ranged rabble reliable accuracy on top of spawning them in big groups and putting them in far away points. It’s simply bad design and further proves the point of Ranged being, ultimately, a detriment to the 'tide game design.

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I would love it if Developers came out and explained how certain weird bugs happen. I understand WHY they don’t because people would probably call them incompetent garbage and general abuse. But I’m really curious how this bug could occur because you’d think the hitscan should work the same for both. And if so I’m curious why they work differently.

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Yeah i think this needs to be stressed that there is nothing more annoying than getting shot from 2-3 random angles by few shooters and getting constantly stunned/supressed or whatever.
Supression alone cancceling any action is absolute bull%hit.

Beastman archers are a really good point to draw from since fatshark has clearly dealt with this issue before and know how frustrating this can be.

Add on top of this the hidden factors that affect how much you can take damage. https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkTide/comments/zszwn3/wippatch_1021all_career_hidden_mechanic_base/
The ranged part really needs some fixing and streamlining. It honestly feels like there is too many cheffs in the kitchen making these desiqn decisions.

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Melee enemies should block shots from ranged enemies. Maybe even take friendly fire damage. Exceptions being the sniper who shoots through then

And LOS should be calculated from rhe enemy’s muzzle to your camera viewpoint not any point on your hitbox

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I will preface this with saying ranged combat at everything up to heresy is fine in my opinion, and I think this is because the mix of enemies spawning remains relatively consistent and in reasonable numbers, with the main differences being their toughness and the volume of elite spawns.

Having started to play damnation, while I’m glad that its not as easy to adjust to and successfully run as casually as lower difficulties, I have definitely noticed a tangible tilt in the intensity of ranged combat. The issues you listed are common across all tiers of difficulty, but its damnation where the intensity of ranged encounters really emphasises the problems.

It really makes me think of the old guard adage ‘He who disdains the humble lasgun has not charged fifty of them across an open field’, because at damnation difficulty it feels like the scabs start routinely spawning in platoons of 20+ and will put down enough simultaneous firepower to melt any bot you’re still saddled with in a matter of seconds.

Its to the point where I’ve had scenarios where the only course of action was to just close in and force melee because that was the best way for my vet to draw their fire and relieve the rest of the team rather than slowly struggle with plinking away one by one while equally pinned and suppressed as the others.

Mind you that’s still an encounter that would just slow down a decent team, where it really gets ridiculous is when that platoon becomes a company in an open arena, backed up by 8 gunners and reapers and with grenadiers and snipers in the mix if the director is really messing with you. I’ve had times where I wondered why I was dodging backwards without input because the sheer weight of fire was pushing me back that fast.

Still technically doable, but unpicking that hedgehog is a very long and painful process which even with careful positioning to limit exposure will ensure you have basically no toughness spare to survive any melee that might spawn before you can clear the shooting gallery. In the 5+ minutes that can take that’s not really an if but a when.

If this is my feeling as a vet then I can understand how melee focused classes or Ogryn for who positioning and cover is a foreign concept would struggle to find fun in it at all. Even at damnation ranged combat is a challenge to me, which I enjoy, but I’m playing the class best equipped to fight back so im actually able to do something. When we are all pinned, while I can fight back the others get the very engaging gameplay of getting battered by a storm.


That said, I do still like that damnation isnt something you can consistently run well in a group of randoms because I climbed up here having trivialised the other difficulties in the same way. Some tweaking to enemy spawns and behaviour, and refining of the maps geometry to solve the challenges you raise would make it easier, but ideally i think the other classes should be given the tools to actually be able to do something in these situations.

Zealots charges shouldn’t be able to be staggered at all, when I’m spectating one trying to desperately pull a clutch its painful to see every time it happens. They need it as a tool to breakout of pinned situations and fight back against a firing line, otherwise theyre just stuck trying not to bleed toughness while they wait for something to close in to melee range.

Psykers could have AoE abilities to debuff groups of enemies with mental attacks to create openings for their group to exploit, thematically similar to the ‘terrifying visions’ psychic power they can perform on the tabletop, or a mass non-lethal brainburst stagger if you want to think of it that way. Actually, it could work exactly like a alternate brainburst, but instead of killing one enemy it just disrupts them and any enemies in an AoE around them.

Im not sure what tools or abilities would best help an Ogryn, but you probably get what im trying to say, When we are all pinned down by a firestorm, the other classes should have the ability to do something about their situation, ideally in a way that compliments their classes unique natures rather than resorting to making them pocket sharpshooters or something.

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Extremely well-articulated post.

Always felt off to me that Ogryn and Zealot have a charge.
I imagined Ogryn would be able to draw attention / fire like Bardins Ironbreaker.

Would be fun if weapons have more interesting special attacks overall. Maybe give the shield something akin to that. Though that could probably make shield mandatory and too powerful.

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My goodness, what is this idiotic mishmash ? Veteran has 10% base crit, but not Zealot ? But Zealot is apparently invincible while sliding ? Psyker’s sprint is slow af, and here I was wondering why I was always lagging behind the team ?

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I agree with this, also in my opinion ranged combat is not as fun as melee combat. In ranged, you just take cover, aim and do some dodging to be efficient. For melee, you have to aim, block, dodge, stagger, handle multiple enemies at once and all of this in a timely manner, it just feels more engaging and dynamic.

Find it funny that the vet has the most toughness and also the most toughness recovery when doing MELEE KILLS!..

Make every shot count somehow affects MELEE weak spot damage.

I’m determined Sharpshooter is the defacto pet class in Darktide. Most things going for it, best class ability (imo), ranged weapons and melee weapons that allow them to be good at everything etc etc.

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Jesus Christ, and I thought the hidden stuff in VT2 was bad, this is insane lmao

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Tbf even in melee my vet just dodges, stabs and aims for the head. Catachan dagger wont cut down chaff in swathes like a powersword, but it will happily bleed a horde dry by 1000 cuts or happily brain individuals in one swing when I need it to, all while enjoying the best bit of the survivability onion to not get hit in the first place.

Enough mobility to swiftly disengage and pick out elites from the crowd at range, and with grenades apparently filled with razor blades for emergencies. So long as I dont get cornered, have space to fall back on and know my timing I can even reliably evasion tank plague ogryns and demonhosts lol

Very good post. I agree with everything here. The absolute disbalance of range enemies on Damnation drives me mad, especially when games spawns like 30 range lasgunners and each one of them can 100-0 my toughness with perfect accuracy. Sure they are gimmicks like infinite Zealot slide build, crit build or Slab Shield but design of range enemies limits the ways you can play in this game in the long run, which make it much more boring. Beastman archers always miss their first shots. They work as threat becasue “if I leave them alone they will become problem” so you can’t ignore them but also sudden group of archers spawn can’t just 100-0 you in 1 second even on Cata.

Don’t get me wrong: Damnation in DT is imo still much easier than V2 Cata but at the same time it’s much much more frustrating, which doesn’t add to the challenge at all.

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Ranged enemies are the real boss in this game. Way more dangerous than any other enemy. Which tells us how much flawed their design really is right now. I’ll add to the list the excessive damage they do, I mean, 1 ranged shot sometimes takes all your toughness, 2 of them can rip you to shreds. It’s comical.

Yea I think the high difficulties in this game are basically Current Year FPS campaign on Very Hard. Poke out of cover to return fire against aimbot AI that tears through your shield like nothing. Its more a test of how slowly you’re willing to move (since the trickle specials and hordes from slower game tempo are still nothing vs ranged trash). Maybe the Beast of Nurgle counts as a threat otherwise, for a similar bad design. It sponges your ammo you need to fight ranged trash, and depending on the width of the avaliable terrain cannot be followed.