Yet here you are defending the front-ulting one shot of Shade I brought up - which you only bring up breakpoints (meaningless) random scenarios (meaningless) and downsides (meaningless because basically none)
Hagbane low ammo? Not on WS, Handmaiden? Not with talent, Shade? Not with talent.
Wrecks bosses despite not being boss killing class? Check.
Specials? Check. You do know you have 3 other teammates, right?
It’s hilarious watching you defend Shade, which is suppose to be about doing huge damage from behind, from knocking out elites from the front with made up scenarios, various builds and breakpoints which are meaningless because she can do that before any of it.
And hagbane is a problem when you can murder bosses with it despite being any ELF class. Why be Huntsman or slayer? This isn’t “shilling” it’s about balance, which people seem to like keeping ELF away from.
The Huntsman should be raised up to have comparable killing power to the Shade. It’s inexcusable that he can’t, and it’s even more inexcusable that the Bounty Hunter magnum got nerfed long ago during the Buckshot OP day and has been weak since.
Though to be fair, if you use that Double Shot talent, even BH can one-shot a CW, which is a poor use of it if you ask me. It’s just a limp skill.
Hyperbole statements that completely disregard constructive discussion.
If you were to tell me that shade ulting and killing a chaos warrior with just an uncharged leftclick was too strong then yes I’d agree, but in my eyes a charged headshot should easily be capable of it in stealth.
They can fix the former for all I care, I won’t miss it. Just take heed fixing the latter since it isn’t broken.
Made up plausible example scenarios based on personal gameplay learning experience and past team-mates > your baseless untested assumptions of how the game could be working right now.
Of course I do. Pointing out weaknesses/strengths has little to do with my teammates. I don’t go around yelling other classes are worthless in hordes just because halberd or whatever other weapon is so good at it however. Which you similarly do with Hagbane versus bosses.
The average player’s effectiveness has a lot of bearing on the weapon and it’s abilities. If everyone were doing it just fine with 0 issues all the time then I’d have problems with Shade too. But I’m not seeing that currently since it’s gated behind gameplay knowledge as well and not just button presses, when you take the time to look further than ‘‘X does Y’’ and actually put things in practice rather than black-and-white statements it starts to fall apart. Sure a house of cards is going to stand indoors with no wind but outside with a breeze it can topple over easily.
In case that was too raw - Yea a CW is going to bite the dust 1v1 but things get awfully dicey once you actually start putting this in a heated scenario - sure the CW may still die but it gets a lot more technical leading up to the moment before and after the strike. ‘‘Dodging away like a breeze’’ isn’t always going to be applicable if you simply run up to it and stab it and aren’t aware of your surroundings.
You can prety much solo kill a boss in around 15 sec using SnS & Repeater Xbow and conc pot, just abusing 10 sec damage buff from Shrapnel trait and keeping your ranged weapon’s Barrage stacks up. Do you want to nerf Repeater and SnS too?
Yes, of course they want that. Nerf this, nerf that, once DnD is nerfed, SnD is too much and SnS is too much and the the handgun deals too much damage and then it’s the crossbow, and if you drink a strength pot bosses die too quickly so they need to be nerfed and now the conc pot allows for too many uses of active so that needs to be nerfe and speed pot allows BH to shoot too fast and omg boss dies pls nerf and then bombs deal too much damage and can throw bosses down ledges and oh, FK can do that too with his charge so that needs to stop and then you realize that optimizing equipment makes certain builds too strong so let’s just toss those too.
Nerfing sometimes needs to be done (and as I mentioned, in this case it would be warranted in my mind), but it always needs to be done carefully, and often compensated by buffs somewhere else. The purpose is, after all, to get the game in balance, not to drive everything to the ground.
FS seems to have a habit of doing both nerfs and buffs a bit heavy-handedly (though not always) as can be witnessed on nearly any conversation on significant balance changes. This kind of co-op game can’t be balanced well with MMORPGs’ or competitive games’ methods of intentionally throwing the balance off in every patch (in different directions) or letting the metagame handle part of the balancing. It needs careful consideration for each change and their consequences, and after that time for the players to settle on the new changes.
So it’s asinine to assume a backstabbing assassin class should have to go behind to assassinate elites? Just want to be clear here.
Nothing I said is hyperbole besides your arguments of made up scenarios and random players effectiveness.
Hagbane is over-tuned considering it’s accessed to all three classes making them all effective boss killers and Shade assassinating CW warriors from the front, second only to bosses, seems absurd when you look at other classes ults.
I haven’t even brought up her cooldown which is also absurd given it’s capabilities and if you want to bring up setups and what not - the cool down is even more ridiculous .
Let’s just recap.
Best elite killing power with DD. Best boss killing power. Hagbane for any ELF class. No need to actually maneuver behind enemies - just hit it and quit it.
Your argument of low ammo is nonexistent considering talents and classes. Your argument of players skill is moot. Made up scenarios is laughable.
How could you defend or argue for anything saying “but this person sucks with it!”
It’s plain as day what is in front of us. A very effective killing machine with no downsides besides HP, which is moot because of block and dodging, like with any other class.
The topic of the other title before lock was what? “All pros, no downsides?” Basically that is right.
Oh no, you suck at horde killing with daggers when Shade. It’s not even that bad and as this class you’re more focused on other things besides.
There really is nothing else to add to this discussion. besides one thing. Again, I’d rather not see her nerfed, but other classes brought up to have other choices. Yeah, Huntsman is still great and so is slayer - it’s just clear which one is the best when you look at the whole package.
If you’ve been following constructive feedback it’s quite clear that the CDR trait needs to be looked at, if you followed my previous remarks before you joined with your aggressive attempts to argue rather than discuss, then you’d see that if that doesn’t fix it I’d still be fine with them looking at the cooldown, to a degree.
Which only serves to drive home further that Shade is doing what it’s intended to do, taking out high profile targets quickly when geared for it.
I’d rather see other classes brought up to have other choices too. See this whole section here is a good and solid point. Though if I want something tanky that can consistently get into the thick of things I’ll pick Slayer any day of the week and if I want a mix of melee and weaving out to snipe or just bowing my way through a mission I’ll pick huntsman. The latter of which needs some of the nerfs rolled back to make him more consistent.
Honestly i’m fine with shade killing bosses. She is pretty squish, and daggers are not very easy to use. If someone can play it well, then why not reward em for it.
And do you really want bosses in their current state to survive for more than a 10 seconds, with a chance to get horde + specials and bunch of elites on top of it? Like only the fact that they can switch agro MID SWING and turn 180 to smack you, giving you so little time to react that your ping delay might be bigger is so bad. Also the reach on some attacks is clearly way too big.
I really hope that i’m just bad at the game and bosses are fine and fun to fight(dodge dancing feels boring btw), but from my perspective shade should stay where she is now, at least untill bosses are actually challenging in a good way.
I really can’t explain why low-cd ults get their ult back so quickly on a ‘‘2%’’ ratio otherwise than the fact that it’s truly ‘‘2 seconds’’ instead, so I’m pretty sure my mate was right about that - they’re the same person that always helps me look up the latest breakpoints and the whole math information that I’m honestly not good enough at to make any sense of on my own.
Comparatively this would also explain why it feels like it works a lot better for low CD’s than high CD’s because 2% on a 2 minute cooldown should be a lot more noticeable than on a 40s cooldown (although I realize crits in general will aid in reducing CD.)
Shade doesn’t need “ifs” to be super effective vs everything. Even in areas where she doesn’t excel she’s very decent like horde clear with melee. The potion just makes everything trivial.
Another option would of course be to buff every other class to dominate in at least 3 areas and remove all of their weaknesses. At that point we’d just need another difficulty setting to compensate.
“Because my pug group usually sucks, we need a hero like Shade to compensate.” Really?
The game should be balanced around the highest level of play, not a group who just graduated from veteran.
A boss should never be solo-able within seconds by 1 person no matter what gear and consumables they bring. That speed should be reserved for more people using all their potions and bombs. How many? I don’t know, let’s find out! But 1 is definitely too low.
You mistook my intent. I said no such thing. What I was trying to point out to anyone not getting caught on my words there was that they had a good shade with a good group consistently creating an environment where a shade can easily do their JOB in a clean consistent manner.
So yes ‘‘You have a good group then.’’
I’ve seen a lot of bad elves/shades you name it in my pug groups, writing off preparation and skill as simple mechanics is too simple of a way to go about making such a change however. Especially when said decision affects the whole community.
And to add to my remark - those same people running around like chickens also involve the elf more often than not - you are right that it was wrong of me not to clearly state that a GOOD shade can help stabilize that situation - but I never said it would guarantee it nor that all groups need a hero like shade to compensate for bad groups. That’s adding words to mine that I never said.
Besides, even your average and good shade can struggle in a headless group. Heck the times I’ve wasted a full concoction and all my ults just because some guy was standing up on something and got initial aggro with a bomb only to have the boss run up half the map to them and back down again, then through half the map area we had available @_@
To add context: I don’t see shade as purely a boss killer but a strong-target killer, in melee, up in the action.
If Shade is going to be allowed to kill bosses within 10 - 15 seconds by herself using a single concentration potion, then other careers are going to need some serious buffs.
Meanwhile we’re okay with classes infinitely sustaining themselves against everything else the game throws at them using just a flamethrower or fireball staff…
I’m not okay with hour-long games myself and I’m not really interested in every bossfight being a death-struggle and choke-hold. Even with shade plenty of those bossfights can be a drag and a struggle and a half.
edit: Not to mention plenty of maps can have multiple boss-fights on top of a lord fight. That’s a lot of potential roadblocks that are going to suck up a lot of time and be very draining mentally if you’re going to go about it with all the classes weakened and generalized. Bossfights tend to revolve around 1-2 people dealing with the boss and the rest watching the surroundings anyway, lest someone gets mortally injured.
Headless groups should wipe on the first horde. As I said before, the game should be balanced around the highest level of play, not struggling groups.
And what does she have to give up in order to fulfil this job so efficiently that no one can come close?
Sure you can’t just faceroll everything with the class, but as long as you have decent situational awareness and enough skill to successfully navigate a legend mission without being carried by your group, you’re pretty much golden. A decent group sure helps to make things even easier for you, but you can still salvage almost every situation. Now take that same situation and apply it to a Zealot or even (not completely broken build) BH for example. You’d go down with that “headless” group as soon as the first threat arrives.
Than you maybe shouldn’t spend so much time on legend
It’s supposed to be a challenge. At least that’s what I understood from the devs. Maybe we actually need another difficulty between champion and legend. Maybe same HP values as legend but less crap?
There’s a huge difference between streamlining all classes and giving them an equal or even similar number of strengths and weaknesses.
So much this. This game has a fast pace and some maps already drag on alot longer than they should. Killing alot of stuff rather swiftly is the whole theme. I don’t get the idea how arbitrarily nerfs are demanded so certain aspects should last longer, yet nobody can give me clear numbers on how long stuff should last or how many hits what enemies have to take so their lust for endlessly whacking away on enemies while they repeat the same 3 attack patterns over and over again is satisfied.
Guys, for one second, be a little reasonable. This isn’t exactly Dark Souls. None of the enemies in this game is very intricate to fight, most of them have only a handfull of different patterns that most of the time even are predictable. The combat in this game is pretty shallow, it’s all about whacking things with blunt or pointy sticks. Boss fights are fun while they last, but I don’t see the appeal why they should go on for hours and miles, they are simply not that deep and intricate, it is always the same. This game has a fast pace and a focus on specialized characters that fill certain roles so they facilitate pushing forward. Hordes sometimes drag on longer than it is fun, at least for me. I don’t want to have 5 minute boss fights. If a designated bosskiller can dispatch a boss quickly, so be it. We are not exactly at a point where Shade two-shots bosses. Yes, with the right setup, she eats bosses. But the whole argument is based on her being geared more or less completely towards boss killing (and you could push shade even further with volley crossbow. Ever run Hunter on that thing? boss comes, you blast away until you land a crit, drink potion, stab away with +25% power for 10 seconds), having a con-pot, being in the right position, staying in the right position and having her back watched. If all these things align, then yes, I am very happy with Shade absolutely wrecking bosses.
