Come on fatshark devs you are better than this…
Wait how is coruscation staff broken? Its interaction with famished/volcanic seems pretty clearly intentional. They were presumably trying to prevent it becoming absolutely busted on BW. Lingering interaction is probably also intentional, though I think they went too far with that one.
That whole shade business still looks hella intentional given that both abilities now work according to ability descriptions…and it gets more so as time goes.
You keep using that argument, but most abilities and talents don’t work the way they’re written.
Lots of interactions are hidden from us, which is in my opinion not a great decision on their part, but still. I get it works “as it’s written”, but it breaks an interaction at the core of one of Shade’s gameplays, and what before was proactive play style is now down to RNG and out of the player’s control (which is the main reason I hate playing Pyro).
Which ability didnt work according to it´s description other than shade prior to this? Being able to use a shout/dash while reviving someone isnt explicitly stated impossible or doable. But the cloack of mist was explicitly stated to only activate when exiting stealth(false), while pain doesnt have a word about the second stealth instance giving you a free crit anywhere.
As for it breaking the core of shade´s gameplay…painshade still plays almost exactly the same minus one less free elite kill, mistshade meanwhile now needs to attack a small enemy first that they can kill in 1 hit to activate crit+vanish before going as normal.
TBH i am adamantly convinced mistshade needed a nerf at any rate and this is as good as any.
Some examples of descriptions being wrong:
Others include, but are not limited to:
Things like Whc’s hidden +25% headshot damage, Whc’s hidden +5% crit chance or Shade’s hidden +5% crit chance.
Weapon descriptions are all over the place: Why does one Sienna staff have the tag “overheat” but the other one does not? Does that mean that the latter cannot overheat?!
The description of Huntsman’s ult never mentions any of the following:
-5% dodge range
-10% movement speed
+40% reload speed
Can access increased zoom, similarly to Waystalker
And there are most likely more instances of things not working as described:
As for a recent example:
- WS’s bloodshot working with the ult also is intended according to its description, or at least it should add 1 arrow to the ult. Yet, I think we all agree that this must be a bug and should not exist.
It is commonly accepted that Vermintide (unfortunately) does a poor job of explaining its deeper mechanics to players and that you are usually forced to consult external sources.
Now, should the game be dumbed down to match the (poor) descriptions or should the descriptions match the game mechanics?
The latter is much more preferable, even though it is impossible to explain everything about the complex game mechanics in a small text.
Besides, the issue with Shade’s ult has been acknowledged on each and everyone of the numerous bug reports.
Most likely that whatever FS did when they fixed this:
“Fixed a bug where ‘Vanish’ could disallow Kerilian the crit buff from ‘Cloak of Mist’”
just broke every other interaction between invis and crits.
The attempted fix that did not work probably tried to address this in some form but the wording on it is all wonky (“Allowed Shade to gain critbuff from ult even when hidden from stealth on backstabs.”)
I agree that Cloak of Mist needs adjustment but this is one of the worst ways of going about it.
And Cloak of Pain definitely does not any need a nerf at all.
Thanks for that answer
Isnt most of that just bugs? Ability/talent stated one thing but then it actually didnt do that, which does highlight my point further.
Passive stats not being listed doesnt mean abilities should have functionalities beyond what they state?
This is a deep, deep rabbit hole and i wont go there.
Which is absolutely not good, such things should be possible to read somewhere, this does touch on the area of unlisted …ehm, features? But one wrong does not make two right.
I dont think it´s a problem with 1 extra projectile, problem is it adds 1 projectile per projectile fired which is what goes haywire with trueflight and is a bug.
For reference bloodshot+piercing arrow are also bugged with the former being consumed by the latter without doing anything.
Which really does not inspire any confidence at all, there are bug reports related to talents/abilities that have gone as they are for years. Literally. Either they do not care or they lack the ability to do if they care.
How so though? It became conditional, either go frontal or find a weak mob to backstabb to start the crit chains on and keep the invis. As for painshade, well i do agree that i did not feel nerfs were needed but on the other hand…does she need that extra elite kill really?
I´ve played it and it didnt really feel important on normal cata QP/wastes.
All the examples I listed do something other than what is stated/do things that are not stated at all anywhere.
This is exactly the same with Cloak of Pain/Cloak of Mist.
Additionally, the fact that the descirptions do not match the actual abilities is regrettable, yet not a reason to change the abilities to match the descriptions. That would be one of the poorest reasons to change gameplay for the sake of text.
Instead, it should be the other way around (or we accept that not everything about a complex game can conveniently be displayed in a tiny text box).
About the implications these bugs have for Shade:
Cloak of Pain:
Cloak of Pain did not just lose “1 more elite kill,” it literally lost 50% of its elite killing power.
Imagine if Gk’s double stab ult (cooldown of 40 secs) just did no proper damage on the 2nd stab.
Except Cloak of Pain is a 60 sec cooldown ult and requires a backstab for the 2nd kill which makes it a fun risk/reward playstyle - that got nuked for no reason as you also stated:
there was and is no reason for Cloak of Pain getting nerfed at all.
Cloak of Mist Vanish:
If you want to nerf Cloak of Mist’s frontal damage output, then this bug achieves absolutely nothing.
It only destroys the synergies with Vanish, thus severly undermining the key identity of a backstab focused class.
Having to rely on certain enemies being in the vicinity when ulting is not only exceedingly reliant on rng and unfun (are there any slave rats even near the pack of SVs that I inted to ult? - If no, useless talent), but also ruins the theme of the class as well:
the high value target assassin running after the weakest enemies just so her talents can work at all.
I’ll just drop a link to the original post where similar arguments are listed:
The gist of it is that these bugs have an utterly negative impact on the way Shade is played.
Even IF they were intended, it would be especially egregious as there are several far easier and significantly more elegant ways of toning down Cloak of Mist and Vanish that would not hurt the identity of a class by making it clunky to play:
Reducing the cooldown reduction on Cloak of Mist to 15% - 20% would put its cooldown to 51- 48 secs, which feels like a fair amount (go and try it out Steam Workshop::Shade Adjust).
Cutting it down from +45% cdr to +20% is reducing it by over half its current power without taking it away completely.
Adding a 1 sec internal cooldown to Vanish would severly reduce its potential to wipe out 10+ elites in under 4 secs while remaining completely invisible.
(See my comment further down explaining what I mean with “1 sec internal cooldown”).
Instead, when paired with Cloak of Mist, you’d get 4 secs of crits, meaning an average of 3 elites kills per ult when chaining Vanish invis procs (human error wouldn’t allow for 4 perfectly timed 1 second cooldowns of Vanish procs).
You generally do not get much value out of Vanish without Cloak of Mist, and a nerfed Cloak of Mist without Vanish played as a frontline class would still be good, but not op.
Again, coupled with the outlined nerf to Cloak of Mist, the combo of Vanish+Cloak of Mist would still exist and remain potent. However, it would no longer trivialize content as it does now.
Important to keep in mind is that one has to be careful when applying a double nerf (Vanish AND Cloak of Mist nerfed) as it can easily dumpster a build completely otherwise - which would be a shame since the idea behind this build offers a unique playstyle.
That would hurt Shade I think, for the same reason the CoM changes did. You don’t want to be isolated at the back of a horde because your invisibility didn’t proc, making everyone turn around on you, and being incapable of triggering it again.
Well this is what has been achieved, then, hasn’t it ? Cloak of Mist’s non-crit on the first hit = CoM without Vanish ; you’re just suggesting playing it from the front instead of from the back, which does kind of go against the identity of the Shade which is what makes complains arise.
It is perfectly viable, but it denatures the class IMO.
I agree with everything you’ve stated up to that point, but I think this is kind of counterproductive to your point…
Allow me to explain what I meant:
Vanish has a 3 sec duration, so adding a 1 sec internal cooldown means the cooldown starts as soon as Vanish is procced.
As a result, you need to spend 1 sec of your 3 sec invis not attacking if you want to stay invis.
After that 1 sec internal cooldown has run out, you are still left with 2 secs of invis during which you can refresh Vanish.
It only means that spamming attacks while invis would no longer work:
Either you take full advantage of the Cloak of Mist 4 sec duration and keep attacking, meaning you become visible but have a greater damage potential.
OR you keep chaining Vanish invis, but that would mean not being able to attack for that 1 sec cooldown so your max damage potential is lower but you get to keep the safety of chaining invis.
A trade-off where one is high risk/high reward and the other is lower risk/lower reward.
No more “spam left click when behind an SV pat and kill them all while remaining invisible the entire time” - either deal max damage but become visible or stay invis but don’t deal as much damage
(or a bit of both if you decide to mix it).
About the 2nd point, I meant that currently, even with the broken Cloak of Mist and no Vanish talent picked, a frontline Cloak of Mist build is extremely strong to the point where it does not feel quite well balanced.
Keep in mind that you can still go invis every ~28 secs with the current Cloak of Mist, which is also very strong just as a pure invis escape tool without any other requirements.
It was meant as an argument that shows why the current bugs don’t actually nerf the base Cloak of Mist as a frontline tool and are therefore not even good nerfs (if we pretend they were intended).
So, if the changes I suggested were applied, a frontline Cloak of Mist without Vanish would be more balanced.
Furthermore, the combo of Mist+Vanish would work (unlike now) and would also be more balanced.
I agree that Cloak of Mist as a pure frontline class is not exactly thematic and I would like to keep the identity of the class as backstab crit-based assassin intact by going for the changes I outlined above.
Half the examples or more stated that they would do Y thing but they did X thing instead, the only really on the spot case was is the huntsman one where it did or rather does things that it doesnt tell you about ontop what it´s supposed to do.
Like cloak of pain&mist used to do and perhaps are indented to do.
Which really is not a lot considering an elite usually doesnt have more than 80 health or so, a longbow headshot does more. The main feature of CoP is bursting 1 elite/Special in a bad spot or hitting a boss hard while remaining safe&without aggro which it still does.
Now this is an interesting idea that does sound good, but, do we think Fatshark can make it work? And do we think the iteration of being a invisible oneshot machine on a short cooldown can be balanced without feeling gimped or slow? Or is a rework of some kind needed?
I personally mostly play with the painbuild but on the other hand i do acknowledge the argument that an assassin that doesnt sneak or have the ability to utilize backstab related bonuses does sound kinda off.
According to that, Shadowstep shouldn’t grant any dmg bonus, yet it does because of obvious and understandable reason, but I don’t see anyone who supports the-patch-being-intentional-theory mentioning this. Descryptions not matching with the function is rather a common issue of V2, and it’s usually because of poor descryption, not the function; not that there are’t exceptions though.
I am not even opposed to the nerf, whether it’s intentional or not. All I want is the changes being listed on patch notes so that people like you and me don’t have to guess whether it’s a bug or not.
Right now I’m treating it as a bug because it’s not listed on patch notes. It’s my temporary stance before devs officially mention on the issue, and I am having hard time understanding those who doesn’t treat it as a bug when the change has not been mentioned anywhere by devs.
A few abilities/talents do have lacking descriptions, the wording for shadowstep in particular ought to be something more on the line of “This also happens when you use infiltrate”.
A fair stance, i am simply open to the idea that fatshark hasnt been talking properly with eachother in the studio again resulting in patch notes missing stuff or conflicting views between them which has occurred before. And that they are not quite keen on telling us that given they have reduced how much they convey.
And if it were a bug one would think it´d been fixed after quite this time given how major it is for the build. But what does suggest it is a bug and not an intended change is indeed the acknowledgement tag on some posts…which does raise the sad fact that bugfixes arent so speedy.
Maybe they’re having trouble fixing it properly ? Think 220.127.116.11 and the retention of pilgrims coins
Coins do not feel like a really major thing tho, but the present shade thing does mess with the usual performance of the mist build pretty badly. If that wasnt intended i´d wana fix that asap.
Plus the coins thing…if they really cant make the whole “you get an X amount based on Y amount you had” work then i cant help but wonder why they dont just let you start with a flat amount every time after the first.
Cheap but functional and should be a quick fix.
Starting from the fact it doesn’t get any increase in damage based on your current power and finishing it with minor stuff like it doesn’t proc talents properly and just have fixed damage numbers for specific armor types.
Almost everything is broken about this staff.
WHC not sharing crits to his team with guranteed crits talent. It’s not mentioned.
Fair catch, the wording for that one seems to imply that animosity “would also give him 100% crit chance” ontop the normal effect while it in fact overrides the normal effect and does what it does instead.
It´s almost the opposite of shade´s shadowstep come to think of it.