Rerolling a trait with precious orange dust and getting the same trait as before is not very fun

As the title says.

You dont find orange dust in large enough quantities to warrant this kind of feature.
I get that RNG can be bad but this needs to be changed so that you atleast reroll into something -else- than what you currently have on your item.

Please fix.

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It’s a dice roll, after all. You can get the same result. If you think RNG in this game feels bad, try playing BloodBowl II (Also based on a WarHammer franchise :thinking:)

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on dice roll you can get the same number twice

The problem isn’t that it’s random rather than the ‘number’ you already have isn’t taken out of the population. It would be sensible for them to fix it, since nobody is going to reroll wanting the exact trait they already have.

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Whenever you re-roll, you risk getting the same result. Try that logic on a casino and see if it works :joy:

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After reaching lvl30 on Bardin, 5 on other heroes and 600 heropower, i had over 70 orange and 300-400 green and blue dust. After rerolling a full set of 300 gear with nearly perfect stats and traits i still have 50 orange dust and ~200 green/blue. I am only missing 0,2% attackspeed on a hammer and 10% curseresistance on the trinket. Everything but the weapons i can use for other classes, too. I don’t really see any issues with that.

The problem i ran into was missing scrap. Not being able to upgrade 300power blue items is what held me back for the most part. Most of the scrap was used to craft items to push powerlevel higher, so after reaching that once i will be able to gear at least 3-4 other classes/specs with minimal effort.

daum bro u pro

precious orange dust? how about the mega precious green stuff…

You’re wrong, it’s not a dice roll. It’s a likely a result of a pseudo-RNG algorithm. There’s no reason they could not change the pool of results to exclude the currently active trait. Including it in the pool is no more obvious than excluding it.

Now that that is out of the way: What is your argument really? That the game needs to “punish” you? Would you be against a change that made the reroll fail 99% of the time so the RNG would be even more “punishing”? If not, why is the current implementation the perfect amount of “punishing” RNG?

Besides what does a tabletop game have to do with a computer game? Just because there exist games where RNG punishes you, does not mean this game should have RNG that is punishing. To insinuate otherwise is fallacious logic.

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Have you played Warhammer? Or any board game for that matter?
All Warhammer videogames try to emulate whenever possible the dice rolls of the original franchise. Go tell that to Games Workshop. Yes, they could remove the present trait from the pool but they WON’T, for two main reasons:

  • Games Workshop wants their videogame franchises to retain the original tabletop feel as much as possible. If you don’t like this, don’t play videogames with Games Workshop licences because all of them have strong RNG elements.
  • It would reduce the time needed to get the trait desired, therefore reducing the end-game duration. FatShark doesn’t want that. That is why you cannot “lock” traits in this game. Because after maybe 10 hours, you would already have perfect gear. That is not desirable for a game that’s meant to be played for a long time.

And of course it’s not an actual dice roll. It’s simply a function that emulates it. It may look a bit like this:
int dice (int faces) {result = math.random (1, faces)}

There is a lot of RNG elements in this game. Some can get out of control, like spawns, but others are more tight, like weapon and forge related elements. Just bear with it.

Did you get this from Fatshark? If you did not get this from Fatshark you’re pulling this out of your *.

This is also why weapons always do the same damage when they hit. Because they emulate the tabletop game. :roll_eyes:

Games Workshop wants their videogame franchises to retain the original tabletop feel as much as possible. If you don’t like this, don’t play videogames with Games Workshop licences because all of them have strong RNG elements.

Not to the extent you’re suggesting. Seeing all the mobile WH40k tells me that they actually don’t care one bit.

It would reduce the time needed to get the trait desired, therefore reducing the end-game duration. FatShark doesn’t want that. That is why you cannot “lock” traits in this game. Because after maybe 10 hours, you would already have perfect gear. That is not desirable for a game that’s meant to be played for a long time.

But it’s so arbitrary to have such a strong opinion on whether this one trait should be in the pool or not. I suggested 99% fail rate which increases “end-game duration” (LOL) by 100-fold. Much better, yes?

Also you don’t know what kind of level of RNG they are happy with. It’s perfectly possible they think the RNG is too harsh. Thus unless you’re in direct communication with them or have some design docs available, you’re just talking out of your *. Besides it’s just one less trait in the pool. I don’t believe they have very strong opinions on it (not without evidence anyways).

And of course it’s not an actual dice roll.

Yet you argue about dice rolls and draw parallels. They don’t have to emulate dice rolls if they don’t want to, especially as it’s NOT EVEN REPRESENTED AS A DICE ROLL. Ergo, and I quote myself: “Including it in the pool is no more obvious than excluding it.”

Have you played Warhammer? Or any board game for that matter?

Offtopic but currently in my 19th lantern year of KDM.

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Theres some insane sh** in this thread, unique warhammer feel of rerolling your magic items…

Thing with the orange traits is that there are 3-6 total for each piece.

I get this from years of playing Games Workshop video games and tabletop games, from Space Hulk to BloodBowl II. I know how they behave with the producers of games with their franchises. There was in fact, surprise in this very forum some weeks ago about GW allowing this game to have mod tools. Check out the Steam forums, I’m sure there’s still a bit of discussion there about the matter (Posts from betas here were wiped, sadly)

But it’s so arbitrary to have such a strong opinion on whether this one trait should be in the pool or not. I suggested 99% fail rate which increases “end-game duration” (LOL) by 100-fold. Much better, yes?

These traits are mostly meant for people that aim to get perfect builds for high difficulties. This require a lot of time an effort. And this is not about grinding only, but about playing many games and getting better and better. It’s this kind of public they are catering with these mechanics. Look at what @CannonballBardin said a few posts before. He is an example of the target of these mechanics.

Thus unless you’re in direct communication with them or have some design docs available, you’re just talking out of your *.

And that seems just like panic. FYI I have some experience with game design, although not at FatSkark. They seem an interesting company though :thinking:
Am I OK with this mechanic? Although I admit it’s a PitA, I don’t mind it, because I understand the risk-reward system they want to implement and, yes, the similarity with the original game they also want to achieve.

Allowing modding and meddling with design are 2 different things you know…

Modding usually makes selling additional characters/races and such harder since modders will already create them thats why its so hard to convince buisness side to allow it.

Yes it is an extremly shitty mechanic, that people defend that mechanic with the idea that “you can roll the same number on a dice” is just silly. Well yeah, you could have your character perma killed from death, never to be played again, but that’s not a good mechanic. You could get the same loot as the first loot you got, level 14 power level halberd, no matter the class or hero, but that’s not a good mechanic. When people spend the effort to grind materials to re-roll only to get the very same result they tried to get away from, that’s a bad mechanic. I mean, nobody does that. Anyone who offers the same stat offers multiple choices as well as to keep your original stat (Division, Diablo etc). Bad mechanic is bad, no matter how much you want to defend the idea of it.

Acknowledged. We will look into this, sorry for the inconvenience and thanks for reporting!

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Shrine of Solace please

#bringbackshrineofsolace

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You say you know, but it seems like your know does not match with the perceived reality because it seems like you think GW will give FS a call based on not allowing players to reroll the same trait twice. You must know how ludicrous that sounds. Things are not done at that granularity and using “GW’s model” to argue against such a trivial change is absurd.

These traits are mostly meant for people that aim to get perfect builds for high difficulties.

Your answer does not actually answer my question. Why is status quo good, but a percentage, which can be “dice-based”, fail chance bad? Having a fail chance for crafting does exactly what rolling the same trait does: wastes resources so it takes more time to get what you want.

Getting the same result from rerolling is effectively exactly the same as failing the “succeed at crafting” roll, because all the mechanics are opaque: The user cannot tell which happened. The essential purpose of the reroll is to get something else (why would you roll to get something same). Both rerolling the same trait and an arbitrary fail chance, fail to provide something else. As such the fail chance is a much more controllable mechanic: you can set it to level you want regardless of the amount of available traits (for the record I am not arguing for fail chance, I am arguing that using rolling the same result for the sole purpose of controlling crafting material usage is stupid and results in bad UX).

And that seems just like panic. FYI I have some experience with game design, although not at FatSkark.

So have I. Yet, I don’t claim to know what Fatshark are doing like I am some authority on the subject. Frankly I don’t know what our credentials have to do with it. It should be obvious that the goals of Fatshark are not “in the know” to just any random game dev. The QA team even acknowledged that this is an issue, which speaks very loudly for the fact that you are talking out of your *.

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Thanks for acknowledging, Fatshark. Rerolling the same properties with the exact same value is also not fun. Also we need dust exchange or getting green dust from salvaging blue and orange items.

On the topic of old bugs / old things in general… any chance this will get fixed too?

Not being able to roll a trait you already have would save so much dust. It wasn’t possible in V1 to roll the exact same combination, why is it possible in V2?

Why not join the Fatshark Discord https://discord.gg/K6gyMpu